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Sweet William

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #1245 on: November 25, 2021, 10:52:09 am »
I watched the interview with Tucker Carlson, and I've got to say that Kyle Rittenhouse seems like a pretty good guy, and not some kind of hothead carrying a weapon into a volatile situation looking to stir up trouble.

Basically, Kenosha was his community.  He had family there.  He had friends there.  He worked there.  It was his community, and he was devastated that it wasn't being protected better by its ineffective political "servants."

He went to clean up graffiti there with no firearm during the day.  Some friends had experienced destruction with no police support the night before, and asked for his help.  He came.  With an AR  (which doesn't mean "assault rifle," unlike what the ignorant keep spewing), which he possessed legally.  He spent most of the night treating the wounds of the "peaceful" protestors.

Then, a man who was desperately trying to get someone to kill him attacked Kyle.  Prior to that this crazy person had been spewing the "N-word" and yelling "kill me" at multiple people.  And kyle defended himself.  It's a good thing he had a rifle, otherwise the crazy suicide-wanter would have killed him.

Rittenhouse was constantly trying to retreat, and to turn himself in to the police after the first shooting.  The "Peaceful" protestors in that city were evil anarchists.  And the political "leaders"" in that city deserve every bit of scorn that can be heaped on their heads for not protecting the citizens and business owners of that city.

Having worked with scouts and young men for decades, I have met these kind of young men.  They are delightful people.  They usually overestimate their own capacities, but they always desire to protect others.  They are always running toward danger.  Often, it was my purpose to hold them back sometimes.  Kyle Rittenhouse came across as one of those guys.  He wasn't looking to cause trouble or seeking for personal aggrandizement.  He was looking to help some friends who felt vulnerable in the face of danger.

As a person who is a major whimp at heart, I've got to give him props.
 
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Taalcon

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #1246 on: November 25, 2021, 11:52:05 am »
Quote
Apply it to a woman walking down an alleyway wearing a revealing outfit,

Yeah, no. Trying to compare a woman wearing clothing to someone carrying a large loaded weapon designed to kill in the streets in an already tense circumstance isn't going to change minds or give people an 'aha!' moment in the way I think you hope it might, NT. I would highly, highly, highly suggest not using this as an example of a comparable analogy.

You may have a valid point in the background of your reasoning on this point, but using this analogy to try to illustrate it is not going to get you there.

It was a very messy situation, and the laws at play are even messier. It's just as likely that if KR hadn't brought a gun, nobody would have been killed that day. The fact is he is the only one who killed anyone in that setting that day. The more guns brought into a situation, the higher chance someone's gonna be provoked to use theirs (or feel that they NEED to use theirs for their OWN self-defense), and have it result in death. That's what happened. It didn't need to happen. This doesn't let the violent rioters off the hook for their actions. This doesn't mean they should'n't have been held accountable.

Kyle isn't a hero. He extrajudicially killed two people. The jury ruled it ultimately wasn't a crime.  I'm willing to accept that by the laws they were bound by, their ruling was accurate. I think that should lead one to look at the laws that permit (and some would say encourage) such scenarios to legally escalate.

A lot of people did wrong on that day. Nothing about any of it was good. Someone being able to technically have been legally allowed to have killed people in the full picture of those key circumstances isn't something to celebrate.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2021, 04:20:03 pm by Taalcon »
 
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N3uroTypical

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #1247 on: November 25, 2021, 06:13:49 pm »
It was a very messy situation, and the laws at play are even messier.
You mean, unlike situations dealing with sexual consent, and laws applied to trying to convict an abuser?   Seems like you're bringing my analogy closer, not widening the divide...

Quote
It's just as likely that if KR hadn't brought a gun, nobody would have been killed that day.
And if [hypothetical she] hadn't been dressed so provocatively, nobody would have been raped that day.  This is you trying to point out differences?


Quote
The fact is he is the only one who killed anyone in that setting that day.
Ok, not sure what that has to do with my analogy.  But ok...


Quote
The more guns brought into a situation, the higher chance someone's gonna be provoked to use theirs (or feel that they NEED to use theirs for their OWN self-defense), and have it result in death.
And the more you mix revealing clothing with alcohol and drunk dudes, the higher chance someone's gonna be provoked to do something. 

Again, I'm baffled at how you think these points are somehow disproving mine...

Quote
That's what happened. It didn't need to happen. This doesn't let the violent rioters off the hook for their actions. This doesn't mean they should'n't have been held accountable.
Replace [violent rioters] with [provocatively dressed women], and the same logic is used to make the same point.  I mean, you think your reasoning applies to your situation, and you think it doesn't to mine, but you're absolutely failing at explaining why. 

Quote
Kyle isn't a hero.
Agreed.

Quote
I think that should lead one to look at the laws that permit (and some would say encourage) such scenarios to legally escalate.
Again, applying your same logic to my hypothetical:  Perhaps it's time to revisit laws that permit (and some would say encourage) women to dress in ways and go places where sexual assaults are likely to occur.

Same logic, same reasoning.  You think it applies to one situation but not the other, and I honestly can't see where you've even tried to explain why.

Again, my main point: When a tragedy occurs, whether an act of armed self defense against violent assaults, or a sexual assault, a common gut-reaction is to blame the innocent person.  Kyle shouldn't have had the gun, shouldn't have been there.  She shouldn't have been dressed that way, shouldn't have been there.  Victim-blaming is a very, very dangerous thing.  Because if we start stripping away people's rights to be in places they're allowed to be, doing things that are not illegal, because we think they're being stupid, then precedent-setting cases start getting used in situations you don't want them used.

Quote
A lot of people did wrong on that day. Nothing about any of it was good. Someone being able to technically have been legally allowed to have killed people in the full picture of those key circumstances isn't something to celebrate.
Agree totally, with the possible exception of any positive impact the story had on future decisions to riot.  Such things are hard to measure, but some news stories I'm seeing after the verdict are indicating that some violent destructive rioters are having 2nd thoughts, since, well, someone stood up to them and got away with it.  It's the punch-the-bully-in-the-nose-and-he'll-leave-you-alone concept, except with human lives.   But yes, I agree the loss of life was tragic, Kyle's presence there was stupid, and nothing that came out of that city that day, including the trial verdict, is cause to celebrate.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2021, 06:55:24 pm by N3uroTypical »
What-about-ism is pointless. I like to think most people's responses to such arguments would be, "Yup. That person, who happened to wear the same political jersey I do/did, was totally wrong on that, too."
-Taalcon
 
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pnr

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #1248 on: November 25, 2021, 07:40:24 pm »
I agree he shouldn't be treated as a hero (and the idea that he deserves the Congressional Medal of Honor is truly revolting, no matter who it comes from).   I wish his attorneys had told him how awful his big grin would play out displayed as he left the court room, no matter how much relief he had to have felt in that moment.

But he also doesn't deserve the label of villain,  or :bad guy who got away with killing people.
Nauvoo 1270, Feb 2005
 
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Taalcon

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #1249 on: November 25, 2021, 08:11:49 pm »
 
Quote
.  Victim-blaming is a very, very dangerous thing
Who in your scenario is the victim in the case? That's what makes this messy. It's a scenario where you're framing the person who chose to bring a gun to an extremely hostile situation and and ended up killing people with that gun is being presented as 'the victim'.

Your comparison is nonsensical to me because to be true equivalents, the comparison would actually be the suggestion that someone might have feared because they saw someone subjectively 'provocatively dressed' that they were in danger of being sexually assaulted by that such dressed person, so took it on themselves to be the proactive assaulters.

When you set up the actual equivalents, it's completely nonsensical

Sexy clothing isn't designed to rape. Guns are designed to kill and main, and there is zero other purpose for them. If someone sees sexy clothing and feels they are in danger of being raped, by that person, by virtue of how they are dressed, they are paranoid and making an illogical conclusion.

 If there's a heated tense situation with violence and hatred being spewed and you see someone with a large gun strapped around them on the city streets, it is NOT paranoid to think the point of the gun is to do harm to you.

I can't get behind the idea of ceding the point that how someone dresses can be at all equivalent of walking around with a deadly loaded weapon carried at the ready. The scenarios are in different universes.

To make it more clear:
A) I feared I was going to be killed, so I tried to kill
B) I was turned on, so I attempted to rape

Are not equivalent.

It would need to be
A) I feared I was I was going to be killed, so I tried to kill
B) I feared I was going to be raped/assaulted, so I raped/assaulted.

Bringing a weapon to an already tense context creates a potential for a chaotic and tragic feedback loop. Since (in some localities) you're allowed to shoot if you legitimately fear for your life, and there's two armed people who might not intend to actually shoot each other, all it takes if for one of the two to truly BELIEVE the other is intending to hurt the other for the other to feel they are justified shooting first.

This doesn't relate to a scenario were someone shows up wearing what you call provocative clothing. Even in, say, both parties are wearing provocative clothing, the fear isn't logicial that a person dressed in a sexy way has intentions to rape, and the other must act to 'rape first' in order to protect themselves.

Does this help make my disconnect with your logic make any more sense?

I see we mostly agree on our takeaways from the outcome of this affair. And I get your frustration of the villifying of KR as a bloodthirsty murderer out for trophies that some did (something I didn't and don't do). But the way you're framing the comparison just doesn't fit the case. I get why it comes quickly to mind, but I hope you'll see when you think about it in more detail why it just isn't an appropriate or logical equivalence. That's my hangup.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2021, 09:50:31 pm by Taalcon »
 
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Roper

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #1250 on: November 25, 2021, 10:15:23 pm »
My dad was a marksman in the U.S. Army. He gave me a shotgun and a rifle for my 12th birthday. He taught me how to shoot. He also taught this: Guns are designed to kill. Never point a gun unless you intend to pull the trigger.

I used those guns for hunting. In the military, I learned that handguns and assault rifles are specialized weapons. They are specifically designed to kill humans. When you carry one, you are announcing that you are prepared to kill another person. Maybe that's in defense of yourself or your loved ones. It's never a "just in case" decision, or "it escalated too fast", or "it was an accident." No. When you pick up a gun, you better damn well be prepared to take a life.

Kyle was found not guilty under the law. That doesn't change the fact that this was a series of immature and stupid decisions that led to the unnecessary deaths of two people.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2021, 10:17:51 pm by Roper »
Education is not preparation for life; education is life itself. - John Dewey
 
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cook

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #1251 on: November 25, 2021, 10:39:03 pm »
NT, I think the comparison would have to be Kyle with a gun vs. man with a pe... And the provocatively dressed person vs. the rioters. Then the comparison could work.
 
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N3uroTypical

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #1252 on: November 26, 2021, 09:29:53 pm »
Yeah, maybe I'm overstating my case, maybe I'm using the wrong words, I dunno.  It's just that I heard the phrase "never should have been there in the first place" an awful lot in the '70's, '80's, and early '90's.   It used to be part of the sentence "It's not rape, because she never should have been there in the first place." 

Now I'm hearing the same phrase, except surrounded by "Kyle should have been found guilty because he never should have been there in the first place."  It just freaks me out. 

I just hope people will be very, very careful, when a tragedy happens, and we start wanting to place blame on a human who is standing somewhere they have a right to be, carrying or wearing something they have the legal right to carry or wear.   I know girl parts are not the same thing as an AR, but the words used to apply blame are exactly the same.

Feel free to carry on before I said anything.
What-about-ism is pointless. I like to think most people's responses to such arguments would be, "Yup. That person, who happened to wear the same political jersey I do/did, was totally wrong on that, too."
-Taalcon
 

Jason

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #1253 on: November 27, 2021, 08:42:31 am »
No comparison is perfect. The point is there, though.

There is much speculation on whether the Waukesha mass murder was in retaliation for the Rittenhouse verdict. It is reported that the perpetrator has made many black nationalist statements and expressed desires to harm white people. Like other mass murders, motivations may remain murky.
 

N3uroTypical

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #1254 on: November 27, 2021, 09:44:46 pm »
Like other mass murders, motivations may remain murky.

True enough.  But what's been shared is pretty darn chilling.

Quote
'LEARNED ND TAUGHT BEHAVIOR!! so when we start bakk knokkin white people TF out ion wanna hear it...the old white ppl 2, KNOKK DEM TF OUT!! PERIOD..'

50+ more screen grabs can be found here: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10235869/Waukesha-suspect-shared-social-media-posts-promoting-violence-white-people.html


I'm guessing one reason Brooks' actions are being downplayed, ignored, or outright lied about by so many media outlets, is that his story makes an awful lot of progressive democrat policies look bad.   

- His history of bail reductions, only to offend again. It makes the progressive democrats' push to get rid of cash bail altogether and release prison inmates, look like the opposite of a good thing.

- The narrative that blacks riot because they've been oppressed for so long, sort of gets unstomachable after Brooks killed three white children and five old white ladies from the Milwaukee Dancing Grannies group.

- The narrative that Nazis walk among us on the right side of American politics, gets pretty hard to support after reading Brooks' posts in support of Hitler.

- The narrative that black people can't be racist, can't really survive 15 seconds of looking through his list of social media posts.

And on top of all that, if they so much as peep about how nasty it is to make private social media posts public, immediately gets their own actions thrown in their face, as they're presented with their own screen shots of Rittenhouse's private social media posts.

So, if you're left of center, or the complicit media, the fewer people who know anything about what happened in Waukesha, the better for your side.

Folks who do Facebook, maybe stop by this page and show these folks some love: https://www.facebook.com/Milwaukeedancingrannies
What-about-ism is pointless. I like to think most people's responses to such arguments would be, "Yup. That person, who happened to wear the same political jersey I do/did, was totally wrong on that, too."
-Taalcon
 
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Sweet William

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #1255 on: November 29, 2021, 01:47:27 pm »
Quote
.... It's just as likely that if KR hadn't brought a gun, nobody would have been killed that day. ...

Actually, the first guy shot by Kyle Rittenhouse was not there in support of the rioters.  He was trying to get someone to attack and kill him.  He yelled "kill me" at many people.  He shouted the "N-word" in a group of people who were rioting in support of Black Lives Matter.

He likely would have been killed with or without Rittenhouse.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2021, 01:52:19 pm by Sweet William »
 

Sweet William

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #1256 on: November 29, 2021, 01:49:46 pm »
...(and the idea that he deserves the Congressional Medal of Honor is truly revolting, no matter who it comes from).

I an not interested in seeing him get such an award.  However, it's not completely "revolting."  I mean, he deserves it at least as much as Ellen Degeneres.
 

pnr

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #1257 on: November 30, 2021, 08:59:29 pm »
It was revolting in her case too.
Nauvoo 1270, Feb 2005
 

Jason

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #1258 on: December 04, 2021, 10:25:32 am »
Australia has literal internment camps with no legal recourse. Getting sent to one is sometimes done based on personal affronts. Sending the vans to pick someone up can escalate quickly to loading boxcars full of people. The conditions appear rotten. Those running the camps are taking on the traditional role of dehumanizing their "guests" and doling out punishments like extending your "stay" if you complain or break their rules, rather than extending quarantine based off of actual disease.

The worst threats that the left has are not that they want to do away with the criminal justice system, but rather that they want to use it to their own political advantage. The left's reaction to Kyle Rittenhouse's not guilty verdict is very telling. So many on the left want the government to step in and declare their ideologically motivated verdict, rather than one based off of laws. Defunding of police is not to get rid of police, but to cleanse the police force of people that will not do their bidding, and instead create a police force that will enforce their own policies.

Communism uses internment camps, politically motivated convictions, and extrajudicial killings. As seen elsewhere, it can escalate quickly, so must be pushed back against early on.
 
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N3uroTypical

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #1259 on: December 06, 2021, 09:20:11 pm »
So, we might remember back in September, the National School Boards Association published a letter they sent to the White House.  Making a big deal about protesting parents, angry about CRT and other progressive efforts, sexual assaults by transgender students in school bathrooms, and COVID responses like moving to virtual learning and mask mandates for children.  The letter suggested some of the worse/more threatening incidents could be investigated under the Patriot Act.  There was a pretty huge public outcry over the letter, people took it as an attempt to silence dissent, shut parents out of their kids' education.

In October, we learned the NSBA had coordinated with the White House and the DoJ when composing the letter. 
https://defendinged.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/Communication-to-Members-Final-10.11.2021.pdf

Subsequently, 17 states (so far) have withdrawn membership in the NSBA.

I read through the original complaints from the original letter, and was underwhelmed. 
I read the NSBA apology letter, and was unimpressed.
Now I hear the whole thing was co-ordinated with the current administration, and I'm a little upset.
I read how 17 states have withdrawn membership, and I'm encouraged.  I'm also encouraged by the Utah legislature.  It isn't one of those 17 states, but they did pass HR 901:
Quote
        NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED that the House of Representatives strongly recommends that the Utah State Board of Education review standards for curriculum and ensure that the following concepts are not included in the curriculum standards:
          ▸     that one race is inherently superior or inferior to another race;
          ▸     that an individual should be discriminated against or receive adverse treatment because of the individual's race; or
          ▸     that an individual's moral character is determined by the individual's race.

I also heard some local news on the radio today.  The county directly to the north of me, who had earlier withdrawn from their tri-county health department over vaccine mandates, also just had a school board election, that threw out 5 woke bums and replaced them with more conservative members.  (It was a pretty right-wing radio station, there may have been a tad of exaggeration there.)

So much news.  So much to be frustrated at, and so many other things to be hopeful about. 
What-about-ism is pointless. I like to think most people's responses to such arguments would be, "Yup. That person, who happened to wear the same political jersey I do/did, was totally wrong on that, too."
-Taalcon
 

 


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