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Author Topic: SP asked and I delivered  (Read 810 times)

N3uroTypical

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Re: SP asked and I delivered
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2021, 09:20:34 pm »
You can parse it out how you want, of course, but inflammatory language matters.    The OP's been asked by his leader to bring people on board, not to alienate them and give them cause to  write of the warnings as prepper nonsense that has people buying guns and refusing to wear mask and is more political than scriptural.   You'll recall that Jesus told the young man upset at having to carry the Roman's coat one mile by law to carry it two miles, not to refuse to carry it at all.

There's obviously a lot of baggage with certain words where the meaning and flavor they communicate don't match a dry definition.
...
Saying the LDS Church is a cult because it meets the definition is obviously a ploy to get to use a scary word to describe something you don't like.

So, we shouldn't use "inflammatory language" because it "alienates them".  And we shouldn't use words with "baggage" because the "meaning and flavor" doesn't "match a dry definition".  And we shouldn't use words that some people disagree with, because other people toss around words with meaning as an insult.

And pnr advances a scriptural justification, quoting a person who used so much inflammatory, baggage-ridden, non-dry language, that people ended up killing Him over it.

Yeah, Imma go ahead and pass on being persuaded by the criticisms of Mirk's use of the word "tyranny".  I'll stick with the dictionary, and also Christ's numerous examples of telling the truth so bluntly and insultingly that it sometimes provoked people to violence. 

Quote
Today we still see the effects of tyrannical government behavior due to Covid restrictions and their impact on the local and world economy.
Good job, Mirk.  Thank you for not taking the safe path of dry words.  If it were my talk, I probably would have not used the "t" word, but I could only hope the rest of my talk could have been so on-point.
What-about-ism is pointless. I like to think most people's responses to such arguments would be, "Yup. That person, who happened to wear the same political jersey I do/did, was totally wrong on that, too."
-Taalcon
 
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Sweet William

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Re: SP asked and I delivered
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2021, 10:06:16 pm »
It kind of astounds me that people claim the entire talk would be ruined because of one word.

The talk is full of useful advice from decades of prophets.  If one would throw that out and make he who delivered this excellent information an offender for a word, then one is rather short-sighted, I must say.

I can see myself being that short sighted.  I was so annoyed and offended by one phrase from the first conference talk given by President (then Elder) Nelson over twenty years ago that I never listened to another thing he had to say FOR OVER TWENTY YEARS!!!  Good grief, how juvenile and short-sighted of me.  I'm sure he had a whole lot of useful things to say, even before he became president of the church.  But I was not at all interested.
 
The phrase in question you may ask?  It went something like:  Maybe one day you can get the kids ready for church while your wife sits in the car and honks.  It still just grinds my gears, even OVER TWENTY YEARS LATER.  Did I say it was over twenty years ago?
 

Iggy

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Re: SP asked and I delivered
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2021, 12:56:42 am »
I was so annoyed and offended by one phrase from the first conference talk given by President (then Elder) Nelson over twenty years ago that I never listened to another thing he had to say FOR OVER TWENTY YEARS!!!  Good grief, how juvenile and short-sighted of me.  I'm sure he had a whole lot of useful things to say, even before he became president of the church.  But I was not at all interested.
 
The phrase in question you may ask?  It went something like:  Maybe one day you can get the kids ready for church while your wife sits in the car and honks.

Oh my goodness ~ I truly love that phrase. If I heard it today in church I would be hard pressed to not pump my right fist and say loudly~ very LOUDLY YES! RIGHT ON PRESIDENT NELSON !
 

Taalcon

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Re: SP asked and I delivered
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2021, 08:46:53 am »
Quote
It kind of astounds me that people claim the entire talk would be ruined because of one word.

The talk is full of useful advice from decades of prophets.  If one would throw that out and make he who delivered this excellent information an offender for a word, then one is rather short-sighted, I must say.

There's points where people become focused such on something said that they stop paying attention, and start thinking about their reaction to a -thing-. It's because I think the talk is otherwise good and important that I give this advice. This isn't going to be printed off and studied for years to come. He's giving it once to each ward. Minimizing reasons for listeners to turn themselves off is the point I'm trying to make.

I want to give an example of something done in a talk I regret to this day. So, I'm a convert, and served a mission from age 24-26. Before I left on my mission, I fell in love, and got engaged, and we both still decided to serve missions (at the same time! Different places!) while we were engaged. I returned from my mission, and of course went on the talk circuit. One of my first talks was the YSA ward. Without thinking much, at one point, in my talk, I started mentioning things I was grateful for, including my fiancee. It had been announced I had just gotten back from my mission. And now I already had a fiancee?

There was an immediate rumble over the YSA congregation, I saw tons look at each other and start whispering, and I realized, at that moment, that I'd lost attention, because people were, in their mind, trying to work out the what and how, etc. Levels of judgment, surprise, etc had just been prompted which were NOT intended parts of my talk.

All the good things I had planned which might have made a difference otherwise were being said, but not being listened to, because of the other thoughts I had generated with dropping a cultural bombshell within that context I hadn't thought through.

I don't believe the essence of what I said was wrong (Of course I was grateful for that!), but I didn't consider how the reaction would take away from the focus and actual rest of the message I wanted to deliver.

This is the spirit in which I offer this advice. As I said in my first response - it IS a good talk. I just think you underestimate how a single word might make it unneccessarily less powerful and effective for some who may otherwise be able to learn something from it.

We don't always choose our in-the-moment responses. Best we can do is be aware of the potential response, and consider if that is in the best interest of the goals of the talk.
 

Jana at Jade House

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Re: SP asked and I delivered
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2021, 12:48:42 pm »
I live in a village that until recently hosted hundreds of folk escaping tyrants.  I live in a country where we live waaaay to close to tryrants.  Some supposed EU countries are being run today...by tyrants.  Our news is full of horrifying desperate stories of populations under duress from tyrants.
So when I read Mirkwood's  talk, my brain got trapped by the refence to a tryrannical government.  It took me a while to decode what he meant.
And it was nothing at all compared to what I observe every day from my protected perch.
Over reaching? Ham handed?  Inexperienced? Even the Dutch goverment blew it badly when it comes down to it.
But again, my brain had to spend time decoding just what that meant.
And it affected my apppreciation of the rest of the talk.
 
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Enochscion

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Re: SP asked and I delivered
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2021, 01:03:14 pm »
I think what people are getting at is that in the current climate certain statements or language are divisive. Whether it should or not, it turns off a portion of the audience.

Some people might not react that way, but I think the majority of people have some things they will react to like that. It seems like most people in the church, like most Americans, choose to strongly affiliate with a political party (or at least as conservative or progressive). If something is said that clearly places the speaker in one camp or another, people on the other side already see them as an opponent—yes even in the church. Most people don't really listen to the opposition. (For me, if someone says something that places them “firmly” in either of those camps it sets a stumblingblock for me listening to what they have to say.) In other words, identifying one’s perspective as aligned on one side of the political divide is choosing (generally unintentionally) not to speak to the people on the other side, unless they change their political views first.

It concerns me greatly that this is the case in our society and the church. We have become -ites. We are not united. I personally have a hard time believing we will ever be united as long as people self-identify as progressive-ites or conservative-ites. President Oak’s talk from a couple conferences ago encouraging people to switch which candidate they vote for or even which party they affiliate with from election to election or vote to vote implies to me that we as a people need to shift our allegiance more fully to the Gospel which cannot happen until we shift our allegiance away from our other affiliations. May I suggest that from President Oaks talk, it seems to me that if anyone always votes the same single party, they perhaps need to be more thoughtful.

I think we often times think that if Jesus appeared he’d vote the way we do, and I’m pretty sure just about everyone (including myself) would discover that we were mistaken in that assumption.

Now, some of you have been turned off from my post because I’m essentially telling you with righteous zeal that your party affiliations are “all wrong together”. On the other hand, I can almost guarantee that I could put together a scripturally based talk addressing the principles of unity in the church that people could listen to without any clear indication of my personal political viewpoints, and most people who don’t know me well would come away from it thinking I agreed with them on the most important political issues.

Which of these would help the most people in their efforts towards unity in the church? The one that immediately divides most of the audience from me, or the one that allows us to stay united by the beliefs we have in common? (I chose to include the approach I’m defining as less effective in my post for contrast and because this is a group of thoughtful listeners rather than a general congregational audience.)

Paul thought it was a good idea to speak to the Jews as a Jew, and to the Gentiles as a Gentile rather than to alienate either side, because his message of becoming united in Christ was the point, not the cultural differences that reinforced division.
 
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dyany

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Re: SP asked and I delivered
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2021, 08:23:06 pm »
One thing I find interesting about this:
The talk, I am 95% sure, does not apply the 'tyrant' label to local leaders confined to the area of the stake.
As such, the leadership for whom mirkwood felt 'prompted' to censure were likely at a level beyond the scope of the stewardship and authority of his role and his audience.
There are persons for whom that higher governmental position is included in their stewardship. As such, the keys and duties to warn would lie within the scope of that church leader--area or general authority.
So, in my opinion, either the talk reaches beyond the scope of its stewardship, or else it was assuming authority which his position does not give him the keys to hold.

Under the Mosaic dispensation, such warnings and censures could come from multiple prophets at a time. Such was the management of the church then. However, in this dispensation, authority is more hierarchal and prophets do not, can not, and will not be randomly called.

At any rate, I am not within the stewardship covered by that stake. I appreciate and believe the parts of that talk covering principles covered by authorities which had stewardship over me. Other opinions stated therein I can and will ignore.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2021, 09:05:11 pm by dyany »
When day comes we step out of the shade,
aflame and unafraid
The new dawn blooms as we free it
For there is always light,
if only we're brave enough to see it
If only we're brave enough to be it
 

Roper

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Re: SP asked and I delivered
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2021, 09:25:51 pm »
Making a claim is super easy and requires no thought beyond putting a few words together. Claims mean nothing until they are supported with evidence and reasoning. Then, they need to be verified. That's the standard we should insist upon when somebody makes a claim.

I've heard the word tyranny used hundreds of times over the past year in reference to our government. People mostly use it to justify rebellion or at least disobedience of some sort. When I ask for evidence of a policy which is cruel, unreasonable, or arbitrary, I get a list of "policies I don't like," none of which are even remotely close to fitting the definition of tyranny.

I've served in combat zones overseas. I've seen tyranny up close. American government ain't it, no matter how much you don't like the other party.

The sole purpose of giving a talk or a lesson in church is to speak and teach in a way which invites the Holy Spirit to testify of truth. The restored Gospel of Jesus Christ brings us to Christ in unity.

COVID restrictions = tyranny is not truth.
The impact of restrictions on the economy is not the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Leave that part out of the talk, and you've likely got all of your listeners with you in unity and faith.
Keep that part in your talk, and you've likely alienated a number of listeners with a political statement.
Which approach will prepare your listeners to receive the witness of truth and draw closer to Christ?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2021, 09:30:41 pm by Roper »
Education is not preparation for life; education is life itself. - John Dewey
 
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cook

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Re: SP asked and I delivered
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2021, 11:42:46 pm »
I have always had a very hard time with the concept and love of freedom so many American members have. I've had mind blowing arguments like how the educational system is so much better in the US since it is a country where anyone can become anything and everyone can study anything  my perspective being with the high expenses of University studies it isn't exactly everyone who can do anything, even with scholarships, compared to our basically free University studies (you pay abot 200¨$ a year and get paid money for studying) here. But no, we do not have freedom, only the Americans.

I get very tired of members (probably non members too) picking their freedoms. One must have the freedom to choose to vaacinate or wear masks or to go any place without these. It is tyranny to not have the freedom to do as one pleases in these matters (I don't think anyone is put to prison for not doing these yet though, so people actually are free to choose even if words like mandatory are used). But one should not have the freedom to do an abortion. One should not have the freedom to have sex education at schools. One should not have the freedom to come to the country freely...

You can't shout for freedom if it is only freedoms you like. Or shout for tyranny only in matters you don't like.

For a foreigner it is a very annoying trait you have, this love of "freedom" or "agency" as often the gospel is pulled into the discussion.
 
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Roper

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Re: SP asked and I delivered
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2021, 09:48:04 am »
I've had mind blowing arguments like how the educational system is so much better in the US...

Smiling because in the U.S., most elementary educators point to Finland as the best model in the world.
Education is not preparation for life; education is life itself. - John Dewey
 
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cook

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Re: SP asked and I delivered
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2021, 10:16:42 am »
Might be most in general. But I've encountered too many who have though that the US system is so much better because there is more freedom to become whatever you want to.  Even after the facts have been presented. Often the argument is then that here it is not freedom, because you had to pay taxes to create such a more equal system. With freedom people you can just never be right. Unless you agree with them.  ::)
« Last Edit: October 28, 2021, 12:49:16 pm by cook »
 
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N3uroTypical

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Re: SP asked and I delivered
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2021, 04:12:51 pm »
I've heard the word tyranny used hundreds of times over the past year in reference to our government.
So, here's something I don't get.  Yesterday, when I used the Nauvoo search feature to find the word "tyranny", I found a smattering of results from threads other than this current one.

Today when I repeat the search, I don't see any.

Anyone know why that might be?

What-about-ism is pointless. I like to think most people's responses to such arguments would be, "Yup. That person, who happened to wear the same political jersey I do/did, was totally wrong on that, too."
-Taalcon
 

AndrewR

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Re: SP asked and I delivered
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2021, 08:32:49 pm »
I just searched and found 7
Don't ask me, I only live here.
Nauvoodle since March 2005 #1412
 
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Taalcon

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Re: SP asked and I delivered
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2021, 08:59:48 pm »
I got the same results as Andrew.
 
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N3uroTypical

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Re: SP asked and I delivered
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2021, 03:11:52 pm »
I don't get it.  I get 11 results, all from this thread.  There's no page 2.
What-about-ism is pointless. I like to think most people's responses to such arguments would be, "Yup. That person, who happened to wear the same political jersey I do/did, was totally wrong on that, too."
-Taalcon
 

 


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