Welcome to New Nauvoo


Author Topic: COVID-19  (Read 23536 times)

Jana at Jade House

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 467
  • Thanked: 696 times
  • Country: nl
  • Express of All She Surveys
    • View Profile
Re: COVID-19
« Reply #390 on: August 04, 2021, 09:37:10 am »
Agreed.  Thus, those that are vaccinated should practice good public health mitigation until all eligible persons everywhere are jabbed.
 

N3uroTypical

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 745
  • Thanked: 713 times
  • Country: 00
    • View Profile
Re: COVID-19
« Reply #391 on: August 04, 2021, 06:18:46 pm »
Quote
Quote
Quote
Jason: Spreading communicable diseases when there is an effective means to not spread it is punching someone else in the nose. Defiantly not getting vaccinated and then going about society with immunocompromised people, like the elderly, those with cancers, etc, is the same as wildly swinging one's arms through the air around people who are unable to duck.
Neuro: What do immunocompromised people have to do with getting the COVID vaccine?
Jason: Immunocompromised means that their immune systems may not mount an immune response. They remain vulnerable despite being vaccinated. Thus others should be vaccinated to protect the immunocompromised.

I agree.  Folks should be vaccinated to protect themselves, those within their stewardships, and everyone else.   But not everyone will.  I mean yes, it will be nice when we all are in the afterlife, and everyone does what they should.  But here in the mortal plane, the valley of sorrow, the place of agency, where people are free to chose for themselves, the rules will always be different.  Again, no matter what should happen, we live in a world where social policy/laws/peer pressure/bullying will never be totally effective.  Given this reality, it is reasonable for immunocompromised people to take responsibility for themselves.  And it is unreasonable to pretend that we can urge/incentivize/pressure/force everyone to get the vaccination.   We can still make strong statements using the word "should", but we "shouldn't" be in denial about what's going to happen.  Reference my earlier statements about betting your lives on humans acting like humans.  It's good advice for folks like me, who posses three separate high-risk categories for this virus.

My 10-year-olds don't have a choice and at least partially  have to rely on others to keep them safe.
Oh this one is easy and comforting.  Your 10 year olds are pretty much bulletproof from the adverse impacts of COVID.  Whether they catch it or not, they are already pretty safe from it.  It's totally unwarranted to force an unwanted medical procedure on a free people, to protect a group that doesn't need protection.  Now, take polio and other preventable diseases that work over children, and my answer of course changes.  But for COVID, kids are pretty safe.  Like "similar odds of drowning in a swimming pool" kind of safe.



What-about-ism is pointless. I like to think most people's responses to such arguments would be, "Yup. That person, who happened to wear the same political jersey I do/did, was totally wrong on that, too."
-Taalcon
 

Roper

  • Administrator
  • Thousand Year Egg Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 2308
  • Thanked: 3099 times
  • Country: us
    • View Profile
Re: COVID-19
« Reply #392 on: August 04, 2021, 07:14:22 pm »
Yeah...all those pesky things called laws which protect other people by limiting my unbridled use of agency... ::)
Education is not preparation for life; education is life itself. - John Dewey
 
The following users thanked this post: Jen, dyany

Jen

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 404
  • Thanked: 590 times
  • Country: us
    • View Profile
Re: COVID-19
« Reply #393 on: August 04, 2021, 08:16:46 pm »
More kids are getting sick with the Delta variant and they're getting sicker than the original virus made them. "It's not that bad" is the kind of anti-vax argument that made me unfollow my SIL from all social media. (With respect, because I like her.. and I like you, too... I just don't like that kind of glib dismissal of real facts.)

Someone at my husband's office was diagnosed with the Delta variant today, so that's awesome.
 
The following users thanked this post: dyany, Iggy, Roper

N3uroTypical

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 745
  • Thanked: 713 times
  • Country: 00
    • View Profile
Re: COVID-19
« Reply #394 on: August 05, 2021, 11:21:44 am »
Yeah...all those pesky things called laws which protect other people by limiting my unbridled use of agency... ::)
Yep, we seem to be moving ahead with increased efforts on all our fronts.  Incentives are ramped up - everything from million dollar lotteries, to employers paying people to get vaccinated, to businesses offering perks.  Governments and employers are toying with making proof of vaccination mandatory in various ways.  Even in horribly racist ways that come down disproportionately on minorities, like NYC's mandate requiring proof to access indoor dining - which effectively bans 80% of African Americans and Hispanics from eating in a restaurant.  One hopes this law will motivate NY's minority communities to step up and be vaccinated.  How well do you think it'll work?  (Source: https://covid19vaccine.health.ny.gov/vaccine-demographic-data)

What-about-ism is pointless. I like to think most people's responses to such arguments would be, "Yup. That person, who happened to wear the same political jersey I do/did, was totally wrong on that, too."
-Taalcon
 
The following users thanked this post: Roper

N3uroTypical

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 745
  • Thanked: 713 times
  • Country: 00
    • View Profile
Re: COVID-19
« Reply #395 on: August 05, 2021, 11:22:04 am »
More kids are getting sick with the Delta variant and they're getting sicker than the original virus made them. "It's not that bad" is the kind of anti-vax argument that made me unfollow my SIL from all social media. (With respect, because I like her.. and I like you, too... I just don't like that kind of glib dismissal of real facts.)
Heh.  And "The sky is falling" is the kind of [insert thinly veiled insult here] argument that makes me frustrated with [insert personal anecdote about frustrating relative here].  I suppose it's time for a link war.  Hey Jen - why do you believe kids are getting sicker with the Delta variant than original COVID?  Here is my list of seemingly-reputable links that believe otherwise:

August 3: https://health.clevelandclinic.org/delta-variant-and-children/
Quote
“Generally speaking, children who become infected with COVID-19 have very mild symptoms if they have any of all. It’s been rare to see a child get very ill from COVID-19 regardless of the strain. So far, it does not appear that the delta strain has caused more severe illness in children even though it’s highly transmittable and much more contagious. But we certainly need to keep a close watch since this situation is constantly evolving.” - Pediatric infectious disease specialist Camille Sabella, MD

Yesterday: https://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/delta-vaccinated-parents-people-kids-12-need-know-rcna1590
Quote
It's not yet well understood if the delta variant is more dangerous for young children, or if kids are more susceptible to this strain compared to others who are unvaccinated

July 22: https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2021/07/22/covid-delta-variant-children/
This is an interesting article, which asks "How dangerous is the delta variant for children?", and then states "An internal CDC document obtained by The Washington Post July 29 said it is “likely” that the delta variant causes more severe illness than previous variants."
But when you look at the source it cites (another Washington Post article), there is nothing about children.  The closest we have is this:
Quote
One of the slides states that there is a higher risk among older age groups for hospitalization and death relative to younger people, regardless of vaccination status.

Yesterday: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/07/17/1017075240/delta-variant-is-spreading-fast-and-new-cases-are-rising-is-time-to-mask-up-agai
Quote
It's possible that children who get infected with the delta variant might have more symptoms than they would if they were infected with an earlier version of the virus. With a more transmissible variant, "when someone gets sick, they tend to have more virus, and they tend to have more symptoms," Chu explains.

That being said, Chu says, typically "children are not that symptomatic from COVID." Her best guess? She thinks delta "probably will not lead to significant numbers of children getting hospitalized."

Ok, Jen, your turn.  Please substantiate your claim that kids are "getting sicker than the original virus made them".

Quote
Someone at my husband's office was diagnosed with the Delta variant today, so that's awesome.
Seems to only be a problem for the unvaccinated.  For vaccinated folks, the Delta variant seems to be much closer to the seasonal flu in dangerousness.  For kids, other than hand-wringing and sneering at anti-vaxxers, it appears to be more of a giant nothingburger (Jen's convincing response pending.)

What-about-ism is pointless. I like to think most people's responses to such arguments would be, "Yup. That person, who happened to wear the same political jersey I do/did, was totally wrong on that, too."
-Taalcon
 
The following users thanked this post: Roper

Jason

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 462
  • Thanked: 741 times
  • Country: us
    • View Profile
Re: COVID-19
« Reply #396 on: August 05, 2021, 03:25:16 pm »
In Florida children are getting infected with the delta variant more frequently than with the previous variants. In addition pediatric hospitalizations and ICU admissions are increasing significantly. I suspect that the increase in transmission among children is due to the increased viral load.

We have yet to see if the 1-3 month post viral syndromes are going to be significant. I suspect they will occur at the usual rates following viral illnesses like this, but since there are now 10s of thousands of pediatric infections, there will be thousands of long term complications.

The increased transmissibility among children as well as the known long term side effects is tilting the risk benefit calculations of vaccinating younger people toward getting the vaccine.

The current wave of infections is mostly being fed by the unvaccinated, which spills over into the general population. While this wave is likely going to peak at the end of August, it is difficult to say if it will be a precipitous decline, like in the UK, or if the start of school will supply a steady stream of new infections that causes the wave to only slowly decline with a long tail.
 
The following users thanked this post: Jen, N3uroTypical, Roper, nitasmile

Jen

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 404
  • Thanked: 590 times
  • Country: us
    • View Profile
Re: COVID-19
« Reply #397 on: August 05, 2021, 07:50:48 pm »
I concede that I wasn't weighing the stats carefully enough. More kids are getting really sick because more kids are getting sick, but maybe it's proportionately the same. Either way, it means my unvaccinated kids are at higher risk and I'm worried. Mock if you will. I don't understand the need to push back so hard on that.

Quote
(Jen's convincing response pending.)

Maybe it's just that I'm so tired of all of it, like everyone else, but I used to feel like we had at very least a friendly acquaintanceship... so your tone toward me is bumming me out. Just adding to the general feeling of being bummed out by how the last year+ could have been an opportunity to learn to better serve and love each other that we (as a world) have thrown away.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2021, 07:57:20 pm by Jen »
 
The following users thanked this post: dyany, Roper, Taalcon

N3uroTypical

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 745
  • Thanked: 713 times
  • Country: 00
    • View Profile
Re: COVID-19
« Reply #398 on: August 06, 2021, 10:35:24 am »
Jen, I apologize for my tone.
What-about-ism is pointless. I like to think most people's responses to such arguments would be, "Yup. That person, who happened to wear the same political jersey I do/did, was totally wrong on that, too."
-Taalcon
 
The following users thanked this post: Jen, Roper

Palmon

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 634
  • Thanked: 698 times
    • View Profile
Re: COVID-19
« Reply #399 on: August 07, 2021, 01:37:47 pm »
 
The following users thanked this post: Roper

Patty Rain

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 350
  • Thanked: 271 times
  • Country: us
    • View Profile
Re: COVID-19
« Reply #400 on: August 08, 2021, 12:20:04 am »
Vaccinated people are protected very well against breakthrough infections with the original Coronavirus, as well as the alpha (UK) variant. But vaccinated people are testing positive for the delta variant and some governments are reconsidering mask mandates. Is anyone confused? This may be a long post, but it will explain my understanding of the science behind this.

The measles vaccine is a "sterile" vaccine, meaning that once vaccinated, one will never get measles. It is like a layer of shellac. Measles is a respiratory virus, possibly the most infectious one we know of. However, it requires some transmission through the blood to cause an infection, and antibodies are readily available in the blood, which prevents an infection from being established.

The coronavirus is different. It causes its infection in the lungs, so does not need to go into the blood. Lung antibodies (IgA) are not like a layer of shellac. Typically it takes the immune system 7-10 days to begin to mount an antibody response against a novel (never before seen) infection, by which time there is a much bigger fight and significantly more damage has already taken place.

It takes the original coronavirus an average of 6 days to produce enough new virus to become positive on a PCR test, what we might call the incubation period. At this point the infection is destroying lung tissue.

The vaccine works by priming the immune system so that if the coronavirus gets into the lungs, the antibody production goes into high gear right away, so that by day 6 (which is when the original coronavirus would have become positive on a PCR test) the virus has been wiped out. Minimal damage has occurred. No PCR test will ever test positive. They likely never knew that their bodies were fighting off the coronavirus, but this is not a "sterile" vaccination like with measles.

There are two big differences with the delta variant than the other corona viruses. 1. It has a much shorter incubation period of 3.7 days to be positive on a PCR test rather than 6 days. 2. It produces over 1200 times more viral particles at the time it is first detected. 3.7 days might not be enough time for the already primed immune system to wipe out this enormous viral load, so some vaccinated people are going to test positive. They might become infectious to others. This might even be enough viral load for children to become infected and infectious.

But since the vaccinated people's immune system is primed, the immune response starts working very fast and they still have very high levels of protection against severe disease, hospitalization, and death. Even with the delta variant so prevalent, and some vaccinated people testing positive, the unvaccinated are still over 99% of those who are being hospitalized and dying. Vaccinations are still highly recommended.

Because the delta might cause vaccinated individuals to have a mild case, they might still be infectious to others. Therefore masking of vaccinated individuals might make sense when indoors in areas of high community transmission. It is better to avoid the virus than to have to rely on one's immune system fight it off.

So if I can't seem to get immunity from the measles vax (tested several times and then get yet another booster) does this mean I have good odds that the covid vax actually worked?
Time for a change.  I am yungmom, but have wanted a new username for some time.
 

dyany

  • Administrator
  • Thousand Year Egg Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 1358
  • Thanked: 1728 times
  • Country: us
    • View Profile
    • My blog
Re: COVID-19
« Reply #401 on: August 09, 2021, 09:24:03 am »
I'm just here to offer some anecdotal perspective:
My brother is nearly 40, his wife younger. Both in excellent health, though my brother has a genetic tendency towards HBP. They have 4 kids, the oldest of whom doesn't turn 12 for a few weeks.
They lived most of the last year in Hawaii (my SIL is from there), where COVID safety measures are very strict. When they were eligible for shots, they got them--my brother the J&J and his wife, the Pfizer. None of the kids are eligible yet.
A little over a month ago, they moved back to Utah, where vaccination rates are much lower, rules are far less strict, and COVID-deniers, antivaxxers, and outright selfish people are in far higher numbers than in Hawaii.
So, nearly 2 weeks ago, my nephews got sick with COVID. REALLY sick. Not hospitalization sick, but enough that his 11 yo still gets scared about sensations in his lungs.
Yeah, "it doesn't hit kids as bad" is worthless when you see little kids you love get so sick that they are terrified.
They weren't told if the strain they had was the Delta variant or not, but the viral load in the household with 4 littles--despite a very clean home--was more than the J&J vaccine in my brother could handle, and he eventually got very sick, too. Worse than any flu. It took nearly a week after that for my SIL (who had the Pfizer vaccine, remember) to come down with it. She has fared better than the rest.
I shudder to think of how sick they would have been without the vaccines. My brother would likely have been hospitalized and, with the HBP, could easily have died.
But I'm also extremely angry with the people who refuse to get vaccinated, refuse to wear masks (as mask-wearing by the receiver isn't nearly as effective as mask-wearing by the spreader), and refuse to follow safety protocols, which fuel the spread of the disease, foster more and more variants, and end up killing people through their selfish whininess. They will not be held guiltless at the last day.
When day comes we step out of the shade,
aflame and unafraid
The new dawn blooms as we free it
For there is always light,
if only we're brave enough to see it
If only we're brave enough to be it
 
The following users thanked this post: LMAshton, Jen, Iggy, Roper, Sparky, Taalcon

N3uroTypical

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 745
  • Thanked: 713 times
  • Country: 00
    • View Profile
Re: COVID-19
« Reply #402 on: August 09, 2021, 06:01:05 pm »
I remember like 12 years ago, my wife and I both got the flu, quite bad.   Our kids were like 4 and 7 at the time, and they had to learn how to feed each other.  We were stuck in bed, each of us alternating between sweats and chills, occasionally shivering our way to the toilet.  Whoever was lucid at the time gave instructions to the kids.  I think both of us lost like 5 lbs from the ordeal.  The kids were troopers, and never caught it.

I'm grateful the vaccine is doing a great job of putting COVID into the category of "Probably nothing, maybe mild symptoms, very rarely serious symptoms, almost never a hospital stay, and pretty much zero deaths."

What-about-ism is pointless. I like to think most people's responses to such arguments would be, "Yup. That person, who happened to wear the same political jersey I do/did, was totally wrong on that, too."
-Taalcon
 
The following users thanked this post: Roper, Sparky

Jason

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 462
  • Thanked: 741 times
  • Country: us
    • View Profile
Re: COVID-19
« Reply #403 on: August 09, 2021, 09:15:19 pm »
So if I can't seem to get immunity from the measles vax (tested several times and then get yet another booster) does this mean I have good odds that the covid vax actually worked?
You have gotten the measles vaccine, and have been tested to see if you have antibodies, and the test comes back that you do not have measles antibodies? Have you been tested for antibodies to other things against which you have been vaccinated? If you have trouble making a lasting immune response against different things, then you may have one of the many types of immunodeficiencies. You would be one of those who is dependent on the "herd immunity" from other people for all sorts of communicable diseases.

I do not know how you would fare with the covid vaccine. It might work differently on you than others.

I guess it could be possible that your parents never actually got you vaccinated in the first place and just led you to believe otherwise.
 
The following users thanked this post: Roper, Sparky

Taalcon

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 887
  • Thanked: 1594 times
    • View Profile
Re: COVID-19
« Reply #404 on: August 12, 2021, 02:39:24 pm »
Most direct yet. https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/first-presidency-message-covid-19-august-2021?fbclid=IwAR1gWnTfbdZr9IMU2PbEqKRFt1pcq6U1_n1GdsknZk3xeRS6Yn8D6j2Z378

Quote
The First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints sent the following message on Thursday, August 12, 2021, to Church members around the world:

Dear Brothers and Sisters:

We find ourselves fighting a war against the ravages of COVID-19 and its variants, an unrelenting pandemic. We want to do all we can to limit the spread of these viruses. We know that protection from the diseases they cause can only be achieved by immunizing a very high percentage of the population.

To limit exposure to these viruses, we urge the use of face masks in public meetings whenever social distancing is not possible. To provide personal protection from such severe infections, we urge individuals to be vaccinated. Available vaccines have proven to be both safe and effective.

We can win this war if everyone will follow the wise and thoughtful recommendations of medical experts and government leaders. Please know of our sincere love and great concern for all of God’s children.

The First Presidency

Russell M. Nelson
Dallin H. Oaks
Henry B. Eyring
 
The following users thanked this post: AndrewR, Jen, Curelom, dyany, Iggy, Roper, Sparky

 


* Calendar

October 2021
Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 [27] 28 29 30
31

No calendar events were found.

* Recent Posts

Re: SP asked and I delivered by Roper
[Today at 09:25:51 pm]


Re: SP asked and I delivered by dyany
[Today at 08:23:06 pm]


Re: Rambling by Iggy - book 2 by LMAshton
[Today at 02:16:16 pm]


Re: SP asked and I delivered by Enochscion
[Today at 01:03:14 pm]


Re: The Saga chapter 2 by pnr
[Today at 12:59:54 pm]


Re: SP asked and I delivered by Jana at Jade House
[Today at 12:48:42 pm]


Re: The Saga chapter 2 by AndrewR
[Today at 11:15:51 am]


Re: The Saga chapter 2 by Jen
[Today at 10:17:43 am]


The Saga chapter 2 by Jana at Jade House
[Today at 10:14:52 am]


Re: Rambling by Iggy - book 2 by Jana at Jade House
[Today at 09:41:49 am]


Re: Rambling by Iggy - book 2 by pnr
[Today at 09:15:30 am]


Re: islam -a special experience by Taalcon
[Today at 08:53:36 am]


Re: SP asked and I delivered by Taalcon
[Today at 08:46:53 am]


Re: Rambling by Iggy - book 2 by Iggy
[Today at 01:46:46 am]


Re: SP asked and I delivered by Iggy
[Today at 12:56:42 am]

* Top Posters

Roper Roper
2308 Posts
Curelom
1819 Posts
dyany dyany
1358 Posts
Taalcon
887 Posts
N3uroTypical N3uroTypical
745 Posts

* Board Statistics

  • stats Total Members: 120
  • stats Total Posts: 17015
  • stats Total Topics: 1219
  • stats Total Categories: 8
  • stats Total Boards: 35
  • stats Most Online: 613

  • averages Average Posts: 9
  • averages Average Topics: 1
  • averages Average Members: 0
  • averages Average Online: 22

* Forum Staff

AndrewR_admin admin AndrewR_admin
Administrator
dyany admin dyany
Administrator
Roper admin Roper
Administrator
SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2021, SimplePortal