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Current Events, News, and Politics => Covid-19 => Topic started by: Palmon on March 20, 2020, 06:24:17 pm

Title: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on March 20, 2020, 06:24:17 pm
If you use albuterol, you need to be aware of a shortage.

https://www.newswise.com/articles/a-message-to-asthma-sufferers-about-a-shortage-of-albuterol-metered-dose-inhalers (https://www.newswise.com/articles/a-message-to-asthma-sufferers-about-a-shortage-of-albuterol-metered-dose-inhalers)


Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on March 20, 2020, 07:04:52 pm
Luckily I have 2 inhalers at home (one is expired, but my doc said I could use it for a while anyway).
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: mirkwood on March 21, 2020, 11:01:48 pm
I ordered an extra.  Picking it up Monday.  Fortunately I only need my for exercise related asthma, which does not always occur.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jana at Jade House on March 22, 2020, 09:14:18 am
I am sharing what our Prime minister and our King here had to say to our 17 million folk.

https://nltimes.nl/2020/03/20/full-text-english-dutch-kings-speech-coronavirus-pandemic (https://nltimes.nl/2020/03/20/full-text-english-dutch-kings-speech-coronavirus-pandemic)

The King and family were in quarantine together.

https://www.government.nl/documents/speeches/2020/03/16/television-address-by-prime-minister-mark-rutte-of-the-netherlands (https://www.government.nl/documents/speeches/2020/03/16/television-address-by-prime-minister-mark-rutte-of-the-netherlands)
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: pnr on March 23, 2020, 12:29:24 pm
Over the weekend, I learned that those with blood type A are more likely to get COVID-19 than those with O type, and that not being able to smell or taste is also a first symptom (along with fever and coughing) and people should self-quarantine if that occurs because they have it and are passing it around.

I also learned that Men are more likely to get it than women.

But most stunning is that a whole lot of people who'd been identified as exposed, and even some positive for the virus had been transported together from a cruise ship (that couldn't get to its Venice destination) (on a charter flight), and then released and allowed to fly commercial within the US.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: mirkwood on March 24, 2020, 10:56:24 pm
I got to the pharmacy Monday and the doctor had prescribed me two inhalers.  I have a couple spares in storage now!
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on March 27, 2020, 06:19:07 pm
I moved this post to Positive Lessons from the Covid-19 Pandemic
Title: COVID vaccine?
Post by: Roper on April 04, 2020, 07:41:41 pm
We know that there are individuals who test positive for the virus but who remain asymptomatic. In developing a vaccine, do medical scientists look at those individuals to find out why they don't develop symptoms? We know some of the more general factors which reduce risk. Most of them have to do with a healthy immune system and age, and underlying health concerns. Is it more than that? When you look at the outliers, do they indicate something else? A healthy and athletic 25-year-old with the virus dies, but a 60-year-old smoker with the virus doesn't even develop symptoms. There has to be something more than just the absence of risk factors. 
Title: Re: COVID vaccine?
Post by: LMAshton on April 04, 2020, 11:01:20 pm
I read an article a few days ago that talked about how much exposure a person had to the virus contributes to how severe that person's symptoms are. I can't find it now, unfortunately, but that looks like it's one factor.

I read another article that talked about the correlation between those who've had the TB vaccine get less serious symptoms than those that don't, and perhaps the TB vaccine is acting as a repository of sorts (they used different language that I can't recall) for various immunities.

I read another article that talked about how those with O blood type get less severe symptoms than those with A.
Title: Re: COVID vaccine?
Post by: LMAshton on April 05, 2020, 04:05:41 am
Here's an article that talks about viral load. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/01/opinion/coronavirus-viral-dose.html
Title: Re: COVID vaccine?
Post by: Jason on April 05, 2020, 05:50:11 pm
I would postulate that the most likely reasons for different responses among those of the same age with similar health conditions are genetic variations. A slight difference on a surface protein might make it just a little bit harder for a virus to enter the cell, or some other difference might change the way the immune system looks at the threat.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on April 05, 2020, 05:55:34 pm
Most of this information was obtained from an online source with timelines each month. I tried to leave out politically charged bits of information, but one man's fact is another man's politcal spin. I think this is helpful to keep in mind how we got to where we are today. As well as reminding us that predicting the future is hard with current information. Did anyone successfully predict February 19 would be the high of the stock market so withdrew all of their stocks on that day?

Nov 17, 2019 1st case probably occurred in China
Dec 1, 2019, 1st case later confirmed in China
Dec 2, 2019, 1st case requiring hospitalization
Dec 12, 2019, 1st Chinese news report of a new viral outbreak in Wuhan
Dec 19, 2019, Alveolar lavage fluid sent for testing from pneumonias of unknown causes
Dec 21, 2019, Chinese doctors reported cluster of pneumonias of unknown causes.
Dec 21-29, 2019, cluster of patients with pneumonias of unknown causes, but most linked to Wet Market
Dec 27, 2019, genetic sequencing showed a similarity to SARS
Dec 28-29, 2019, Local Chinese CDC began investigating and tracing contacts.
Dec 30, 2019, SARS was diagnosed with genetic sequencing. Chinese ophthalmologist Li reported on social media that SARS had been confirmed.
Dec 31, 2019, China contacted WHO to report pneumonias of unknown origins. China’s health department advised wet market workers to wear masks. Began more investigations.
Jan 1, 2020, China closed wet market for a day, told people for “regulation”, though in reality for disinfection. Wuhan told local labs that no more sequencing was allowed and that all current samples must be destroyed.
Jan 2, 2020, Wuhan told doctors they could not discuss the cases or write medical notes that included it.
Jan 3, 2020, Genetic sequence of novel corona virus was determined. Ophthalmologist Li was forced to sign a confession that he was making false comments. US CDC director had spoken with Chinese CDC about cluster of 27 pneumonias of unknown origin.
Jan 4, 2020, Hong Kong heard rumors of new virus and wanted some isolation from the mainland. Singapore had first confirmed case from a girl who had traveled to Wuhan. China refused to release information about virus to the WHO.
Jan 6, 2020, Wuhan CDC had ruled out influenza, avian influenza, adenovirus, Coronavirus SARS and MERS.
Jan 7, 2020, China censors internet talk about Wuhan virus. US CDC issues travel warning to Wuhan province.
Jan 8, 2020, China announces new Coronavirus. First South Korean case from travel.
Jan 9, 2020, first death. China announces new virus is not as lethal as SARS.
Jan 10, 2020, Chinese Ophthalmologist Li begins having symptoms of virus.
Jan 13, 2020, first case in Bangkok from traveler to Wuhan.
Jan 14, 2020, WHO tweets China’s report that the Corona Virus is not spread from human to human. Reporters from Hong Kong were arrested in Wuhan for trying to find out information.
Jan 15, 2020, arrival of Wuhan traveler with virus to Washington state.
Jan 16, 2020, Berlin develops rapid assay for virus. Published to WHO for use by other countries.
Jan 18, 2020, China says they have not had any new cases for the last 16 days. Some Chinese New Years celebrations.
Jan 20, 2020, China says that the virus can be transmitted human to human.
Jan 21, 2020, China gives direction to lower level officials to not cover up the virus. US patient from Jan 15 has laboratory confirmation.
Jan 22, 2020, Greater Wuhan area under quarantine.
Jan 23, 2020, Wuhan suspends public transportation.
Jan 24, 2020, US confirms 2nd case.
Jan 25, 2020, US will evacuate US citizens from Wuhan.
Jan 26, 2020, US confirms 2 cases in California and 1 in Arizona.
Jan 30, 2020, US confirms a case in Chicago, this time a person to person spread. US issues do not travel to Wuhan warning and says prepare for further restrictions. Washington state declares emergency.
Jan 31, 2020, US begins travel ban in China, also requiring 14 day quarantine of those with recent travel.
Feb 3, 2020, Now 11 US cases. CDC to begin dispersing test kits.
Feb 6, 2020, Imperial college issues report that China is not forthcoming, that they likely have 50,000 new cases each day.
Feb 7, 2020, Chinese ophthalmologist Li dies.
Feb 12, 2020, CDC announces that its test kit does not work.
Feb 17, 2020, American Princess Cruise passengers evacuate and quarantine for 14 days.
Feb 19, 2020, US stock market reaches highest point before crash
Feb 25, 2020, US urges local governments to use their local pandemic control plans.
Feb 27, 2020, US stock market falls.
Feb 28, 2020, Washington state will close 2 schools for disinfection
Feb 29, 2020, US travel ban from Iran, warnings from Italy and South Korea.
Mar 3, 2020, WHO says that the death rate is 3.4%.
Mar 9, 2020, Stock markets crash
Mar 10, 2020, China president Xi says that Corona virus has been eradicated from China.
Mar 11, 2020, WHO declares Corona 19 a pandemic. NBA suspends games. NCAA will play games with no fans. US announces travel ban from Europe.
Mar 12, 2020, Stock markets crash more. NHL suspends season, MLB cancels spring training games. Summer Olympics torch begins relay. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints cancels church.
Mar 13, 2020, US state of emergency. US stock market rallies.
Mar 16, 2020, US issues 15 days to slow the spread guidelines.
Mar 20, 2020, US gives briefing on using its existing military and FEMA powers to build or convert structures into temporary hospitals
Mar 22, 2020, US fails to pass relief package.
Mar 24, 2020, Washington state issues stay at home order. Japan Summer Olympics cancelled.
Mar 25, 2020, Nauvoo user Jason has fever, gets Corona virus test.
Mar 26, 2020, US Senate passes $2.2 Trillion relief package.
Mar 27, 2020, US House passes relief package, signed into law.
Mar 28, 2020, Quick Covid Testing kit by Abbott labs approved by FDA.
Mar 30, 2020, US National Shutdown and social distancing rules extended through April 30. FDA authorizes emergency use of hydroxychloroquine for critically ill Covid-19 patients. Nauvoo user Jason’s Corona virus test comes back negative.
April 1, 2020, US posts that 100,000-240,000 deaths could occur. Shortage of hydroxychloroquine.
April 2, 2020, US reports 6.6 million people filed for unemployment.
April 3, 2020, CDC initiates antibody tests to find out how many people are immune. Washington state extends stay at home order until May 23.

(moved to this thread)
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Sparky on April 05, 2020, 08:30:11 pm
I knew it moved quickly, but this just helped to clarify it for me. Thanks!
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on April 06, 2020, 04:36:00 pm
I’m sure making masks has been discussed but I’m not sure where.  I read a request that the part of the mask that touches the face to be made of a different fabric so the users could tell which was the inside. As I was cutting up an old t-shirt to be the liner, it occurred to me that this would be a great use for those garments where the markings had washed away (or have been removed)
Title: Re: COVID vaccine?
Post by: Jana at Jade House on April 07, 2020, 10:33:24 am
There are too many virus threads to choose from. 

I just saw and listened to some of, a video by come purported IC doc in scrubs recording in his kitchen.  I have no clue who this guy is, or if he is anyone to listen to.

His theme was that the patients in IC are not suffering from pneumonia nor COVID but something else entirely. When he started in on respirators not being the answer I shut him off.

One, he was in his kitchen in scrubs. Not a lab, not a professional setting.
Two, he seems to be the only medico in the world whose hypothesis this is
three, why is he making a you tube? why moan to John Q Public? why not go to someone who is in charge?
four, the person who shared this with me is into pseudoscience with a huge dose of woo.

But even then, I am wondering, is there even one grain of vision in this? That in the rush and bustle of treating and trauma  we all are missing clues?

Gosh I hope not.
Title: Re: COVID vaccine?
Post by: dyany on April 07, 2020, 11:45:25 am
Jana,
Sadly, there are a lot of scumbags right now getting their jollies from creating and sharing hoax memes, advice, and videos with false advice. I don't know what kind of sickos think that fooling people into paranoia, false tests, or other lies during an international crisis is funny, but they definitely exist. Your instincts on the video are correct--and the most important thing to note about the huckster's garb was that it HID HIS IDENTITY.
Any and all 'information' or 'advice' about the virus needs to be carefully vetted. 'Luckily,' the rules for double checking the veracity of claims are the same as checking the veracity for other things people see on the internet. (I put luckily in scare quotes because I estimate about 80% of humans are too stupid to check or think in regular times, let alone now.)  Here's some tips:
Title: Re: COVID vaccine?
Post by: Palmon on April 07, 2020, 02:27:55 pm
There was this ophthalmologist a couple of months ago. He made a You-tube video about some obscure virus that was causing people to die. The authorities came out right away to correct him and say it wasn't true. The WHO even supported the government. He ended up retracting his video. Sadly, I heard he died. I guess you can't always believe what you hear. 
Title: Re: COVID vaccine?
Post by: Taalcon on April 07, 2020, 03:03:13 pm
Cross-posted in the two COvid-19 threads, because I don't know who looks at each. This is an excellent explainer video from the NYT that came out yesterday that shows and explains HOW and WHY Covid is killing people. I highly recommend this short watch. It made some things a bit clearer for me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuzP-uLctYE
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: mirkwood on April 07, 2020, 03:39:31 pm
I was finally issued an N95 mask today.  We could not get them any faster.  Sadly the beard had to go, so now I just have the goatee.  I expect a clean shaven order by the end of the week.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Taalcon on April 07, 2020, 03:50:16 pm
Cross-posted in the two COvid-19 threads, because I don't know who looks at each. This is an excellent explainer video from the NYT that came out yesterday that shows and explains HOW and WHY Covid is killing people. I highly recommend this short watch. It made some things a bit clearer for me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuzP-uLctYE
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on April 07, 2020, 04:26:52 pm
Merged the COVID-19 thread and the COVID vaccine thread into one: COVID-19. Now we don't need to cross post. Yay!
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on April 07, 2020, 04:30:41 pm
Taalcon, thank you for linking that video.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Hobbes on April 07, 2020, 04:47:51 pm
I was finally issued an N95 mask today.  We could not get them any faster.  Sadly the beard had to go, so now I just have the goatee.  I expect a clean shaven order by the end of the week.

Glad to hear it! And glad you're wearing it too. I don't know about policy or availability in our area (both of which are changing fast) but we just saw three cops all go to one house (arriving in different cars, but going to the house as a group - no distancing) and none were wearing masks or gloves.

Saw at least one of them blow a stop sign to get there too (no lights) so not sure how representative they were but didn't really make me more comfortable...
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on April 07, 2020, 05:03:25 pm
It may be more than just respiratory. Doctors now suspect heart damage, as well.

https://khn.org/news/mysterious-heart-damage-not-just-lung-troubles-befalling-covid-19-patients/ (https://khn.org/news/mysterious-heart-damage-not-just-lung-troubles-befalling-covid-19-patients/)
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Iggy on April 07, 2020, 05:04:28 pm
I was finally issued an N95 mask today.  We could not get them any faster.  Sadly the beard had to go, so now I just have the goatee.  I expect a clean shaven order by the end of the week.

Good news is hair grows back
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: mirkwood on April 07, 2020, 07:53:22 pm
I would have shaved it within a month anyway.  It is warming up and I wear it for the cold.

I played with the N95 today.  The straps don't hold it on my face.  They pop off because they are too small.

Fortunately I have not need it...yet...
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Enochscion on April 08, 2020, 07:38:16 pm
I think I saw the video Jana started watching. It actually isn't quite what you might think. Basically, the guy says that he thinks the physical responses of the patients more closely resemble those whose body can't absorb the the oxygen properly, than those who are experiencing pneumonia. He does not claim it isn't COVID, and he doesn't claim that they don't need respirators. All he says is that he thinks they may be misinterpreting the details of how the respiratory treatment needs to be used and it might actually be making it worse for some people. He doesn't tell or ask people to change anything they are doing. This sounds like a guy who noticed something that stood out to him, his bosses are too busy or disinterested to listen, and is just trying to get his observations out there.

As far as I'm concerned, that's the kind of stuff I think we need to hear more of--out of the box thinking, empirical observations, etc.

Let me give you an example of something I observed recently. I just moved from the mainland US to Saipan in the Northern Mariana Islands. I was in hotel quarantine for 2 weeks after I got there (they implemented it while I was already on my journey, and the move needed to happen so I couldn't delay until who knows when anyway). I flew through Vancover to Tokyo, had an overnight layover and then a flight with a different airline to Saipan the next day.

I had previously seen a line graph showing the growth rate of the virus in different countries. Japan, Korea, and I think Hong Kong had a much lower growth rate--a much flatter curve. It looked entirely different than all of the other places.

So I was paying attention to what they were doing differently. They had a quarantine area at the airport, with signs telling you to report if you had symptoms, but other than that the officers just waved the passengers on from a distance. I expect if someone were having a coughing fit they might have done more, but nobody did and they didn't seem terribly concerned. Vancouver felt much more tense. Vancouver also had hand sanitizer at more places than Tokyo did. I remember a convenient bottle at the really nice hotel I got for under $60 (and it would have been cheaper if I hadn't gotten a two person room--are nice hotels always cheap in Tokyo or is it just the current situation?), and maybe one other place. Other than that, Japan seemed pretty unconcerned. They weren't any better at how far apart people stood in lines (maybe even a little worse).

So what were they doing? Everyone had a mask on. There were like a very small handful of people without masks--maybe 4 or 5 at the most on my overnight trip (granted, the airport was pretty sparse, but that's still saying something).

Now, before my trip, the CDC and WHO had been saying masks weren't a good idea, and might cause more harm than good. I had a couple of masks, and I put one on before I got off the plane because the airport recommended it on their website and I didn't want to stand out. But the Japanese and Koreans already had masks because they just wear them as a matter of course when they think they might be sick. So once this virus hit, everyone just grabbed a mask and put it on.

Whatever else they may or may not be doing (are they doing really well at not leaving the house? I wasn't there long enough to see), the only thing that clearly stood out to me was the masks.

Then a few days later, once the CDC/WHO had processed the idea that's been floating around for weeks that many people with no symptoms have the virus and are transmitting it, they finally decided maybe it would be a good idea for everyone to wear masks.

I only made one comment on a friends post on Facebook about my experience with Japan and the masks, but I think this is a similar sort of thing to that guy in the hospital. I saw something that stood out. No one was talking about it at all, but it seemed like it was information that might matter. I didn't really have any way to do anything about it and I didn't try. This guy observes something in the hospital that stands out to him. He wants to share it and maybe see if people can use it to help. Unless there is some sort of potential negative outcome to his video that I can't think of, I don't really see any motive for fraud here. I'm going to err on the side of it being someone sharing useful information that a bunch of other people aren't noticing.

And I guess the reason I'm posting (other than just to share my story) is that the way we respond to the the info I gathered is different now that we have learned more. If I had shared it before the CDC/WHO had caught up, it likely wouldn't have seemed like it meant anything. I wonder if perhaps now is a time to start trusting humanity to share information more and personally critically examining information, rather than just trusting what some agency that is supposed to know what they are doing says about how to interpret it.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on April 08, 2020, 10:10:01 pm
I think another contributor is that a public health issue became politicized here in the U.S.  I heard everything from "The flu kills more people every year" to "It's all a conspiracy spread by fake news" to "The socialists are trying to take away my freedom!" As my teenage son would say, "Bruh! What is wrong with you?"
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jen on April 09, 2020, 12:50:33 am
Everyone knows it's the 5G.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on April 09, 2020, 11:28:52 am
I would have shaved it within a month anyway.  It is warming up and I wear it for the cold.

I played with the N95 today.  The straps don't hold it on my face.  They pop off because they are too small.

Fortunately I have not need it...yet...
If it is not fitting properly, then it is not working. Did you undergo a 'fit test' for that particular model of N95 mask? We have to undergo fit testing annually. We also have to undergo a new fit test if they change the model of the N95 that they are issuing, or if I gain or lose significant amount of weight that might affect the fit of the mask.

For those that do not know, a fit test is to see if the mask fits and forms a seal on one's face. They will often have you don the mask then spray you with a substance that should be blocked out by the mask, then see if you can smell it. I think saccharin is commonly used.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on April 09, 2020, 11:39:11 am
It may be more than just respiratory. Doctors now suspect heart damage, as well.

https://khn.org/news/mysterious-heart-damage-not-just-lung-troubles-befalling-covid-19-patients/ (https://khn.org/news/mysterious-heart-damage-not-just-lung-troubles-befalling-covid-19-patients/)
Inside the article does a good job of explaining the various ways that the heart can be damaged from an infection, with most of it accepted medicine that is well known for many different disease processes. The only part that is speculative is postulating that the Sars-CoV-2 virus directly infects the heart muscle and that that causes damage. Respiratory epithelial cells and heart muscle cells are very different. They would react to an invasion of this virus in different ways. To be less speculative the authors would need to find someone to perform autopsies and show that the virus has invaded the heart muscle. That would be a start, though it would not rule out the other ways that the heart could have been damaged.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jana at Jade House on April 09, 2020, 12:35:16 pm
I plan on going back and listening more closely and completely to the doc on the video.  Because since then, I have found he is a real person with credentials.   I did not dismiss him totally out of hand.  Since the dear friend that shared the video is waaaay into woo, I admit I was less open to wahat he had to say,  AND he was filming in a not professional setting, AND he was a solo voice complaining on YouTube instead of finding an ear that could really effct change.   I hope he does get a good ear. 

I actually understand both sides of the mask issue.  Asians wear em like underwear, all day everyday. They are used to masks and like medical people know how to leave em alone and not fiddle all day in which case the hands are close to face and contagion. 
Also western countries do not have masks on every corner like China.  The run on masks in the western world put every essential worker in danger.  Now those who sew can make em. But it is weeks later.
Some countries like mine we do not live on top of each other so social distancing is easier to put in effect.  NYC has the extra pressure of public transport contagion.  So do we but we got told to stay home. And so we do.
Mostly.

Public control of transmission is not one size fits all.  Heck this virus is so new there are no/few consistant repeatable research
results available.
We have a GP here not a specialist, not even in research  that started prescribing two meds together which he claimed to have cured 8 people.  Since GPs do not work in hospitals and since only people in hospitals get tested, the GP was shut down pretty quickly.  There are many hope merchants out there.

So I am staying put on the property til end May because I can. I do not want to take up a hospital bed of a younger person who has living to do.  And I have stressed DNR no tubes no machines to Himself. Do not waste material on me.

This is a good time to have those conversations.
Be careful. Be safe. Stay home.
Masks only work when properly fitted and removed properly.

The unemplymenyt in the USA equals at least the entire population of the Netherlands. Glory be.




Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on April 09, 2020, 01:11:30 pm
It is being reported that only 20%-33% (depending on the source) of patients put on ventilators will survive. While discouraging, that is still not a futile effort, as 1 out of 3 survival is not insignificant.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jana at Jade House on April 09, 2020, 01:58:18 pm
My lungs are not wonderful. I will be 70 in 6 weeks. I just finished radiation. I have controlled diabetes, thyroid disease, wonky blood pressure.
Having ground glass scarring on top of all that is just exhausting to think about.
Let someone  less beat up have a chance
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on April 16, 2020, 01:32:38 pm
I think this is described as generically as possible to preserve anonymity.

I went up to the ICU to help intubate a Covid-19 patient and place him/her a ventilator recently. His/her lungs seemed to have suffered a lot of damage quickly and were not functioning well, with rapid breathing and low oxygen levels, even on high flow supplemental oxygen. The hospital had converted most of that floor into a Covid ICU, and as I walked along the hallway, many of the rooms had patients on ventilators. It is estimated that 50-80% of those on ventilators will die. This patient was older, but not elderly. Pre-existing medical conditions were there, but none of them seemed too out of control. This patient had a spouse die of Covid-19 recently. As I was gearing up with the protective equipment, I was pondering what words I should say to him/her, as there was a good chance that the words that I said to him/her would be the last ones that patient understood and comprehended. I wanted to strike a balance of the appropriate medical explanation, hopefulness, yet no false hopes.

What would any of you want to hear from your doctor moments before you might lose consciousness forever?
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on April 16, 2020, 01:36:45 pm
"Sleep well. We'll meet again."
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on April 16, 2020, 06:41:12 pm
Better times are ahead.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: CrowGirl on April 16, 2020, 08:32:18 pm
I have no words, Jason, but Bless You for your compassion.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: pnr on April 16, 2020, 09:18:17 pm
Knowing that intubation creates significant risk for caregivers as does resuscitation (and neither have good odds),  I'm probably going to reject both if it comes to that.

What I would say in those circumstances is my personal testimony that Heavenly Parents and Savior love us each,  and it is okay to go, and peacefully.   I'd maybe place How firm a foundation or some other inspiring music on my cellphone or an mp3 player and share it with the patient.   (If this is going to happen a lot, why don't you ask your youth groups to download some inspiring music on the cheap mp3 players for you to do this with.)
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on April 19, 2020, 03:30:25 am
I keep seeing posts of people (or maybe one or two vocal persons) who claim that there is no such thing as a Corona virus causing deaths. Instead it is the 5G network causing cancer that suddenly kills them. They test positive for Corona virus simply because they got a flu shot, which somehow makes them test positive for Corona virus [it doesn't]. This is all a plot so that Dr. Fauci and Bill Gates can make billions of dollars off of vaccine sales.

These conspiracy theorists also want me to buy their books, their essential oils, and their selenium, silver, etc., which leads me to believe that money might be a motivating thing for them.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: CrowGirl on April 19, 2020, 03:43:24 am
What. The. Heck.

There is a special Circle reserved for people like this.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Iggy on April 19, 2020, 04:13:59 am
What CrowGirl said.Just add in a double face palm!!
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: nitasmile on April 19, 2020, 09:47:59 am
Jason, there are so many wacky conspiracy things.  Sad to read of the top researcher who is making crazy tweets.
Anyway, you asked what to say before intubating:
I don't know but maybe to listen to them if able, tell the person they are loved.

Just saw this beautiful story and thought to share with you, an ER doc speaking about meeting with a patient who recovered :
https://www.lovewhatmatters.com/he-started-to-cry-and-said-i-remember-your-eyes-doctor-nurse-recovery-extubated-hope/
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on April 19, 2020, 01:54:38 pm
Occasionally I would love to have a role as a chaplain in the hospital where I could focus on spiritual care. Of course I would need to know more about the individual belief systems that the patients held and what type of comfort might work best for them. As my role as a physician, I need to act and speak as a physician. But I try and do that with as much hope and optimism as possible, while not conveying false hopes. I do not want to patronize someone. I want to be direct, but caring. Let them know exactly what is going on, not cover anything up.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on April 27, 2020, 12:33:40 pm
I am furious. No, furious doesn't cover it.

Families and friends are banned from visiting patients in long term care facilities Now we learn this: New York facilities are required to take Covid19 patients released from the hospital, regardless of whether they are still contagious or not. California and New Jersey have similar regulations. I heard (don't have anything to support) that this is also true in some EU countries.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/coronavirus-spreads-new-york-nursing-home-forced-take-recovering-patients-n1191811 (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/coronavirus-spreads-new-york-nursing-home-forced-take-recovering-patients-n1191811)

The above article states that in NY, a patient arrives with a kit that includes five body bags. Oh, and the governor is incensed with the deaths occurring at these facilities - an investigation will occur that just might mandate that they are closed.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on April 27, 2020, 01:16:51 pm
Care for the elderly can be depressing, and that was before the Coronavirus. Nursing homes are some of the attempts to care for those that require intensive daily support, but to provide that care in an adequate, competent, and efficient manner is a challenge. If I had magic powers I would wish that all the elderly could be cared for by their children, and that those children would not burn out and could still be able to figure out when something is a legitimate deterioration that requires medical intervention, but I know that is not possible.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: pnr on April 27, 2020, 03:04:40 pm
With hospitals overflowing, how can they keep those who no longer actually need what they do?
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on April 27, 2020, 03:58:02 pm
I would think the only balance is to move all healthy regular nursing home residents to facilities solely for them, and free up entire nursing facilities purely for recovering covid patients. It's not ideal, but under current circumstances, it's the only way I can see to protect the regular residents, properly care for recovering covid patients, and free up the desperately needed hospital space.

All this, however, highlights the abysmal state of our senior facilities in this country. The staff are overworked, undervetted, and underpaid, while the entire industry is in desperate need of decent oversight. I have seen some really appalling things, from front lines to back end administration, when it comes to senior and disabled housing, and the covid death toll in those homes is only making it more obvious to more people how bad it's been for decades.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on April 28, 2020, 11:44:01 pm
I went to Quest labs to get an antibody test. Our family has had 2 upper respiratory infections come through in 2020. For the second one I was tested with the RT-PCR test at the end of March, which was negative, but those have a 20%-30% false negative rate, so that is not necessarily reassuring. Test results may take 3-5 days.

I hope that the result is positive antibodies, but I am betting it will be negative. Positive would mean that I and my family are likely protected, which will be an enormous weight lifted. We could also visit my elderly parents without nearly as much guilt.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on April 29, 2020, 09:01:15 am
Jason's chronology is really useful, to help put events in sequence. What a complex mess.

April 24 – Lysol & Clorox manufacturers emphatically warn against attempting to use their products to disinfect the lungs, while Maryland, Washington, & New Jersey health officials also tell people not to self-prescribe disinfectants to prevent or treat COVID. This idea is so revolutionary that even the BBC does a detailed feature story on it & interviews several medical & other scientific professionals.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/24/us/politics/trump-inject-disinfectant-bleach-coronavirus.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52407177

April 25 – New York poison control center reports increase in calls about poisoning from exposure to household cleaners.

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/25/845015236/nyc-poison-control-sees-uptick-in-calls-after-trumps-disinfectant-comments

April 28 – Wisconsin poison control center reports increase in calls about household cleaners since their state’s sheltering began. This trend began before the controversy about using disinfectants for the lungs, & might be partly from kids being at home continually & people using more cleaning chemicals than usual. The trend can’t have been helped any by the talk about using disinfectants to clean out the lungs.

https://madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/wisconsin-poison-center-sees-uptick-in-calls-about-household-cleaners-since-covid-19-arrived/article_a342c5b8-e149-5e47-b39a-e1f59c84b962.html

Last week, San Francisco warned anyone hoping to come for the annual 4/20 celebration that to enforce social distancing, it wasn't happening, the city wouldn't tolerate it, & police would be ready if anyone tried to gather at the usual place or anywhere else. It typically draws draws thousands of potheads to a meadow in Golden Gate Park where they have entertainment, vendors, regular festival stuff, but also massive partaking of weed in all forms. The city fenced the area & posted police a couple of days before 4/20, & the warnings must have worked because there was no trouble.

Further non-medical fallout – the Tabernacle Choir’s summer tour of Europe & the Pioneer Day festivities in Salt Lake are the latest victims (the Choir will do the tour next year). The Utah State Fair isn’t until September, so it’s still on, but the California State Fair in July has been scratched.

https://www.deseret.com/faith/2020/4/27/21238247/tabernacle-choir-summer-tour-postponed-covid-19-coronavirus-mormon-lds-temple-square

https://www.deseret.com/utah/2020/4/28/21238588/pioneer-day-celebration-canceled-in-salt-lake-city
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on April 29, 2020, 09:51:53 am
All this, however, highlights the abysmal state of our senior facilities in this country. The staff are overworked, undervetted, and underpaid, while the entire industry is in desperate need of decent oversight. I have seen some really appalling things, from front lines to back end administration, when it comes to senior and disabled housing, and the covid death toll in those homes is only making it more obvious to more people how bad it's been for decades.

One of the big problems with nursing homes is that so many are for-profit private entities. Several SNFs in California have had abominable results with their residents & staff. In Visalia, a small city near Bakersfield, one SNF has had 24 deaths, with 75+ patients & staff infected. That brings Tulare County’s deaths to a total of 35, compared to 23 in San Francisco, a much more densely populated urban county with almost twice the population of all of Tulare County. At one home in Hayward, an urban city south of Oakland, over 100 residents & staff have been infected & at least 13 have died.

Up in San Francisco is a place called Laguna Honda Hospital. It’s owned & operated by the city & the staff are all city employees. IOW, it is not for profit. It isn’t a nursing facility, but a hospital with regular medical doctors & nurses, psychologists, therapists, etc. It has 700-800 residents who are among San Francisco's most vulnerable: elderly & infirm, permanently disabled non-elderly, typically indigent or with no family or means to receive health care.

The health department walled off the place early on, barring non-essential visitors & declaring that any resident trying to leave was in violation of the quarantine & could be detained by law enforcement if necessary. Even with all the precautions, you’d expect a place with so many infirm people to be a hotbed of cooties knocking down everyone in sight. It has had 21 known cases, only 5 of them patients, & no one has died. It seems almost miraculous. But can it be related to the fact this this is a public hospital & there is no motivation to skimp on treatment or supplies, or to fail to keep it fully staffed?
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on April 29, 2020, 10:05:41 am
Further non-medical fallout – the Tabernacle Choir’s summer tour of Europe & the Pioneer Day festivities in Salt Lake are the latest victims (the Choir will do the tour next year). 
I think it's interesting that all the pageants were cancelled a year before Coronavirus appeared.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on April 29, 2020, 12:39:15 pm
Curelom: oh absolutely. They have to have some state oversight, but I haven't heard of a decent state oversight program, ever. Basically, here's what I see for MOST senior facilities around here:
Unethical person who wants a regular source of income without much work looks around, notices that the very elderly poor (which is most of them) and disabled that need care are a) unable to speak for themselves well if at all, b) not listened to much even if they can speak, c) IF they have family, that family is often uncomfortable with them in their current state and/or don't have the time (hence putting them in a home), so are unlikely to visit enough, be aware enough, or be free of enough guilt to report most things, and d) have a regular income that basically can go straight into the home owner's pocket. Ideal marks.
With that information, they also find out that a) state oversight is minimal and as long as you kind of meet some minimal requirements and make friends with the right people, you will have no problem, b) staffing requirements are low (WAY too low for the kind of care), so you can get away with hardly anyone being there, c) the education requirements of staff are very low so you can pay them dirt, and who cares about high turnover that just means fewer raises! d) the other requirements for the facilities are very low, meaning less overhead for you! e) the appearance of this being a lot of hard work is such that the facilities are actually not that common, meaning both that you can cram as many cash cows into your facility as possible AND that the state will let more violations slide because they are desperate.

I didn't realize HOW bad it was until I started working with Medicaid clients in mental health. And it's bad, people. SO. BAD.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jen on April 29, 2020, 08:24:50 pm
Is it a uniquely American thing to seem to think that if something isn't happening right in front of your face, it must not be real?

I'm distressed at the number of people I know IRL and see online that are already going on with life as usual (having friends over, letting kids play at others' houses, etc.) because they think this is all media spin.

I don't disagree that the media and career politicians will use this for their own gain. But enough people on the front lines have talked about how it is that I can't help but feel perplexed that anyone would think it's "like the flu" or "no big deal". On a smaller, personal scale, one of these people is the mother of my little girl's only close friend, and her carelessness means I can't let them play for a long time. :(
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on April 29, 2020, 10:17:29 pm
Quote
Is it a uniquely American thing to seem to think that if something isn't happening right in front of your face, it must not be real?

Um, no. Their are plenty of fascist regimes which use similar tactics.

In America, it's because idiots who command a lot of media attention made a public health crisis into a political issue, and a whole lot of their idiot minions have made partisan politics their God.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jen on April 29, 2020, 10:41:31 pm
Even on the Church's Facebook page I see people saying that the Prophet is listening to the CDC more than the Lord. That he's guided by fear and not the Spirit.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Scruffydog on April 30, 2020, 01:27:13 pm
I think when you have started to question if the Prophet is being guided by the Spirit, then you need to consider whether the problem is you instead
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on April 30, 2020, 03:19:42 pm
Quote
Is it a uniquely American thing to seem to think that if something isn't happening right in front of your face, it must not be real?

It's a uniquely human way to think.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on May 01, 2020, 07:39:18 pm
Even on the Church's Facebook page I see people saying that the Prophet is listening to the CDC more than the Lord. That he's guided by fear and not the Spirit.

I think when you have started to question if the Prophet is being guided by the Spirit, then you need to consider whether the problem is you instead

Quote
Is it a uniquely American thing to seem to think that if something isn't happening right in front of your face, it must not be real?

It's a uniquely human way to think.

There’s much to be said in support of all these statements. We know President Nelson is guided by the Spirit & has the gift of revelation for all of us. As a physician, he is also entitled to listen to the CDC, & he is better able to interpret what he hears from them than the average person (or Church member) because he is guided by the Spirit. Don’t we enjoy reminding ourselves & each other that our life experiences can influence how we qualify for, receive, & act on spiritual promptings? President Nelson spent most of his adult life as a health professional. Why why should we expect him to set aside all of his knowledge & practical experience just because some people think those are inconsistent with listening to the Spirit? I know his primary guidance comes from Heavenly Father & I’m also grateful that he has the background to understand this health crisis & the ability to use it to enhance his grasp of what God says to him.

Seeing is believing, some people will tell us. If it isn’t happening in front of us, or we don’t have tangible evidence of its existence, it isn’t real. This is where the familiar verses defining faith come in. It is the evidence of things not seen. IOW, believing is seeing.


Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on May 01, 2020, 07:46:32 pm
This is outrageous  >:( , when states, cities, & hospitals are having to compete, undercut, outbid, & outwit each other to get basic supplies to keep their people safe, & FEMA or other federal agencies are intercepting orders already contracted & paid for or competitors are able to sabotage deals already made. Trump said weeks ago that states were on their own to figure out how to get ventilators, PPE, or other supplies, & they took him at his word & made their own purchases but are getting cut off at the ankles. Essentially, screwed. The federal government is supposed to be supporting the states & cities, not using its muscle to steal from us. And Washington wonders why the rest of don’t trust it?

Maryland is just the latest. These aren't the only examples.

https://nypost.com/2020/04/30/maryland-gov-larry-hogan-has-national-guard-protecting-coronavirus/

https://www.sfgate.com/coronavirus/article/Breed-SF-PPE-orders-diverted-to-france-FEMA-15224831.php

https://www.wlrn.org/post/feds-seized-shipment-one-million-masks-miami-dade-say-officials#stream/0

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/warren-to-feds-why-did-you-take-massachusettss-medical-supplies/ar-BB11XVK5
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on May 01, 2020, 08:29:02 pm
If the Democrats gain control of the Senate and White House, you can bet that their agenda will include movement to expand Obamacare into national health insurance. And they will have enough public support because of how badly this administration has screwed things up--from conspiracy theories, to contradicting health experts and scientists, to idiocy like this. Trump will cause "socialism" in the form of universal healthcare. At this point, I'll probably support it.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Sparky on May 01, 2020, 08:59:37 pm
Curelom said, "President Nelson spent most of his adult life as a health professional." Isn't it interesting, that when this pandemic arrives, that we have a health professional as the prophet of the church? Who could be a better prophet at this particular time than one who understands the ins and outs of what's going on. I'm glad he can receive revelation for us because he has the background knowledge to make the best use of that revelation.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: CrowGirl on May 02, 2020, 04:18:42 am
Quote
form of universal healthcare. At this point, I'll probably support it.

I won’t.
I have watched video and read news stories that show Doc&Cov 121:39 in full action.  The last thing in the world I want to do is give government any more power over my life.  I’ve watched the goalposts be moved, time and again over the course of this; from ‘we just want to give hospitals time to prepare’ to the insanity I see now in the state where I unfortunately live, and in others.  I am tired of the power squeezing I see, from county officials all the way up.

We are all going to see what we want to see from our government officials.  Roper sees screwups where I don’t, and vice versa.  He won’t change my mind, and I won’t change his.  But I will be flat-damned if I ever vote for a policy or a politician that would result in the government having the power to decide what care I am allowed to receive, or to build a point system on who deserves care.  Under that, they would send my mother home to die.  I watched that unofficially happen five months ago.  Thank God she did not.  I will not go quietly into that night again.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Scruffydog on May 02, 2020, 11:05:32 am
I understand why you take that view, Jen, and I do sympathise. However, as someone living in a society with socialised medicine, we don't have the problems you envisage. The NHS is about treating everybody, not selecting people, and making sure that everyone gets care. There are disputes about the nature of treatment, and the NHS doesn't always get it right. However, in the majority of cases, they do. It depends on the system that you implement.

I suspect that a lot of the problems of the US system would be resolved by changing the way that you implement privatised medicine because no other country that uses private medicine seems to have the same level of cost associated with medicine. You guys pay far more than anyone else in the world for the same drugs; I can't see how that can possibly be justified. Your insurance companies should be trying to bring the costs down, but instead they pass it on to you as the individual. The insurance company, the pharmaceutical company, and the hospital all seem to come out of it with loads of cash. Solving that doesn't require you to adopt socialism or anything like it, but as a society, you Americans need to look at whether the current system gives value for money and whether it is fit for purpose. I'm sure you can come up with a new system that rewards investment fairly but also makes sure everyone gets decent healthcare and isn't facing bankruptcy alongside serious illness
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on May 02, 2020, 11:41:10 am
We are all going to see what we want to see from our government officials.  Roper sees screwups where I don’t, and vice versa.
It's interesting how much of that is determined by party allegiance, where some see the Republican controlled Executive Branch as inept and power-hungry, while others see the Democratically controlled House of Representatives as inept and power-hungry. During the Obama administration, it was exactly reversed. It has been encouraging to watch Senate and House members (not necessarily the leaders) working together in their responses to the pandemic. Every time I think I should affiliate with a political party, I remember "By their fruits ye shall know them," and that keeps me independent.

In other news, I suspended my 401K contributions. It lost 20% of it's value last month. Those contributions are still going into a savings account, and they will go back into 401K in a few months. If anyone hasn't done so already, you might want to talk to your financial advisor about options.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: cook on May 02, 2020, 12:40:26 pm
I have to agree with Scruffydog, The whole point is that everyone gets treated the same. When you enter the hospital or see a doctor, they don't know anything about your finances or your status. My 88 year old father with many ailments has gotten all the help he needs, and a superb service, any tiny problem and they have taken time to check it. Things I would not have insisted on because he's old and wants to die. Of course it's never perfect and each doctor is an individual so one may not agree with everyone or like everyone. But then you can ask for another doctor. And if you feel like you have to wait too long to get in somewhere, you can always use the private doctors, and even then the government pays for a certain amount of it, the medicine likewise. There is also a  yearly limit, if the medicine doctor has prescribed for you goes over it, you don't have to pay for it for the rest of the year.

I honestly don't see any reasons why one would not support such a model, because it is fair for everyone and saves so many lives of those who would not afford all the care they need.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on May 02, 2020, 01:20:31 pm
People have opinions and all systems have issues (because they are manned by people, and people are imperfect and have issues). How, then may we tell what system works better, socialized or privatized medicine?
"By their fruits ye shall know them."  Look at the stats. If it were close, or if some demographics fared better under one type of healthcare system than another, I could see cause for further argument. However, the overall numbers don't support that. The U.S. healthcare metrics--citizen life expectancy, general health rates, access to care, etc.--is well behind pretty much every other first world country and many second world countries.
The increased choice can be nice. But our worship of the almighty dollar and all entities that excel at creating almighty dollars (corporations, mostly) has come at the cost of lives and well-being. I don't believe communism is the answer. But unfettered capitalism is as destructive as full-on communism.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on May 02, 2020, 02:40:25 pm
Curelom said, "President Nelson spent most of his adult life as a health professional." Isn't it interesting, that when this pandemic arrives, that we have a health professional as the prophet of the church? Who could be a better prophet at this particular time than one who understands the ins and outs of what's going on. I'm glad he can receive revelation for us because he has the background knowledge to make the best use of that revelation.

His professional knowledge gives him a better perspective on the revelations he receives, & the revelations he receives give him a better perspective on his professional knowledge. What an ideal meshing of someone’s divinely bestowed talents, his own efforts to develop & make the best use of them, & his ability to seek & hear God’s voice.

Every time I think I should affiliate with a political party, I remember "By their fruits ye shall know them," and that keeps me independent.

Me too! At different times, & on different issues, I might lean toward one party’s position more than another’s. But then I look at the parties, those who lead them, & what they do to keep their followers under their thumbs, & find that I have to lean away from all of them.  :(

Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: TurkeyLurker on May 02, 2020, 07:49:36 pm
...You guys pay far more than anyone else in the world for the same drugs; I can't see how that can possibly be justified. ...

Right you are.  The large drug companies are large campaign donors to nearly every legislator, which allows our country to make ridiculous laws such as those that make it illegal for one to purchase the same drug in Canada and legally bring it home.

Currently, national healthcare systems in other countries negotiate a low price for drugs for their citizens, and the American consumer subsidizes that low price.  One really good law would be that no pharmaceutical company could charge more for a drug inside the US than its lowest charge outside the US (barring emergency donations).  That way, every national health service would also be negotiating for the American consumer.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: TurkeyLurker on May 02, 2020, 07:57:30 pm
... And they will have enough public support because of how badly this administration has screwed things up...

What are you even talking about?  Good gravy.

The initial death estimates were in the millions.   We're not going to see that, thank God.  No thanks to those who were inviting everyone to come to Mardi Gras and Chinatown in February.

President Trump's prescient travel ban was initially widely criticized for being racist.  Now it is criticized by those same misinformed legislators as not having gone far enough. 

New therapies are constantly coming on line.  New therapies from PRIVATE, CAPITALIST companies.

A vaccine is on the horizon in record time.

The man and his administration have done what can only be described as a magnificent job.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jen on May 02, 2020, 08:03:37 pm
Any credit for a lower number of losses than expected goes to a merciful God who heard His children cry for deliverance.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Taalcon on May 02, 2020, 08:20:18 pm
"Stay at Home" and "Socially Distance and Wear a Mask When Purchasing Necessities" are, for a good majority, quite good analogs for the instructions to look to the Brass Serpent. "and the labor which they had to perform was to [stay at home]; and because of the simpleness of the way, or the easiness of it, there were many who perished."

Or Naaman, who was asked to wash three times, and was like, "That's it?"

When my wife was pregnant with our daughter, and there were complications with the pregnancy, we prayed for help, and God sent us wonderful doctors. Some of their advice seemed weird or annoying or didn't make much sense at the time, but listening to their advice 100% saved my wife's life.

Later, when my wife had cancer, another doctor came around in a very unique way that brought added peace to the very difficult decisions we had to make.

I highly believe God often inspires and sends good Doctors as a means of answering prayer, and participating in the healing He wants for us.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Iggy on May 03, 2020, 01:28:49 am
I absolutely hate drive-throughs. For food, medicine and banking. Oh, did I say how much I LOATHE drive throughs.

I can't hear the employee. They either are eating the microphone, or the mic is under their chin or up their nose. I lisp. When I talk to children I talk slowly, enunciate like a stage actor should and insist that human beings LOOK straight at me so I can also read their lips.

The nit-wit of a store cashier, reached under the credit/debit machine, attempted to pull my card out and re-insert it all the while I was entering my PIN number. In doing so she bent my card nearly in half, and cracked the outer edges of my card. I used it at three more stores, but the last time it nearly broke the card in half even though I was extremely careful.

That said, I had to go to the bank. I had to get a new card issued and they won't do that over the phone and the banks won't allow you inside even if you are gloved and masked, and I assume also in Haz Mat Jammies! So the drive through window it was.

I didn't recognize the teller - not her name tag anyway. [my town has 2033 people as of 2018] so I pretty much personally know nearly all the employees in all of our business's. I couldn't hear her, so I asked her to remove her mask. Her eyes got huge, she shook her head violently NO and ran away from the window. I yelled, get back here you haven't helped me. A man came to the window, no mask in sight, turned the volume ON and helped me.

Having my husband in the car and having him touch my knee and actually Cooing at me to calm down helped me from screaming at the teller window: How dumb are you to think that any germs can get through your bullet proof window!??? I don't want to swap slobbers with you - I want and need to read your lips!

Then to quickly discover that she hadn't even turned on the speaker/microphone! I also DID NOT ask the male clerk [I know him from the branch in the next town] why this branch was hiring grade school students to handle bank matters?

That took place on April 7th. Two weeks later, I went through again to ask if they could find out why my new card had not arrived. Same idiot girl, had to point to my ears, shake my head no, mouthed Can't Hear You. Pointed to the area where the clerk two weeks ago turned on everything. Waited for yet another clerk [this one I knew personally - her husband is a chef and my favorite local restaurant] came and turned the mic on. Unfortunately she went back to her desk. Took 10 minutes for the girl to come back and say it should be coming in the next week. 

May 1st I called my bank and asked for my personal friend - asked her if she could find out what the hold up was. I willingly waited on hold for about 4 minutes. She needed to call the card department. The 4 minute wait was to go through their inter-bank & snail mail to see if it got sent to either our branch or the next towns branch. She called me back 10 minutes later. The card was issued on April 7th, mailed out April 8th. NOT returned to sender by post office, NOT activated. They will cancel that card, and issue a new one immediately and send it via inter-bank courier. Over the phone I asked if she, personally could call me when it gets here.

In the meantime I am using Husbands debit card. So the wait begins again.

Thank you Covid-19 for teaching me to keep my anger in check.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on May 03, 2020, 01:52:58 pm
As others have pointed out, healthcare in the United States is very expensive. Where does all of that money go? Not as much to the doctors as people might assume. Those others who are getting a slice of the money have a vested interest to continue to get that money. They are also very powerful. While I would welcome some sort of national payor healthcare system, my biggest worry is that all of those currently receiving slices of the money will warp what could be a good system into a system that continues to enrich them at the expense of society's general wellbeing.

My other fear of the transformation is that a large group of people in the country are used to not paying for anything at all and will insist that their taxes do not go up. I believe that taxes should be increased on everyone in this country to pay for this. That will be unpopular, as we all want someone else to pay for it.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: pnr on May 03, 2020, 02:02:42 pm
If the Democrats gain control of the Senate and White House, you can bet that their agenda will include movement to expand Obamacare into national health insurance. And they will have enough public support because of how badly this administration has screwed things up--from conspiracy theories, to contradicting health experts and scientists, to idiocy like this. Trump will cause "socialism" in the form of universal healthcare. At this point, I'll probably support it.

Roper, I am so puzzled at your interpretation of what has happened.   I'd say that the virus response has absolutely proven that our free medical system is nimble enough to respond really well to hard choices.   If you compare what's happened in the US to the British response, there just isn't any comparison.

Sure it would have been better if our Emergency stockpile and our essential medical supplies supply chain had been better protected ---we do need to sort out those things for sure (and quit thinking that we can quit when each catastrophe has passed).   But socialized medicine isn't going to solve those things.   The earliest Congressional response included that all people would be covered for the virus response so no one had to fear not getting served or be unserved medically.

(And there is that pesky problem that the Constitution doesn't give the federal government the right to insist on national medical care:  it is one of those issues left to states.)
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on May 03, 2020, 05:36:18 pm
Roper, I am so puzzled at your interpretation of what has happened.   I'd say that the virus response has absolutely proven that our free medical system is nimble enough to respond really well to hard choices. 
Well, the documentation of Trump's negligent response and his continual dismissal of science early on are plentiful and conclusive. And our market based medical system is nimble? How many weeks did we have a shortage of respirators, testing kits, and even basic PPE for responders? Sure, we're finally starting to catch our breath, so to speak. I hope that in November we don't forget how Donald Trump's narcissism and incompetence cost lives. I hope we don't forget that our privatized health system put profit ahead of people for so long that when the pandemic hit, the shortages cost lives. Our response continually improved because of the tens of thousands of individuals who made unbelievable sacrifices. Trump and the insurance companies don't get the credit.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on May 03, 2020, 06:51:54 pm
I work with people on disability. I can't give details, but let me just say I know from a broader perspective than most how very inept and opposite-of-nimble our healthcare system is, ESPECIALLY the free part. I see people so hypoxic they can't talk clearly, denied care. Personally, I had some tests done in early February that came back sketchy and required more testing. More testing was scheduled, but then shut down because of covid, and to date the hospital hasn't even worked out how they are going to start scheduling again, let alone how they are going to start seeing people!  So by the time they start scheduling again (a week or two), they will be overloaded and scheduling will be about a month out, so maybe 4 months since the possible-cancer was first detected. More than enough time for this type of cancer to progress and even metastasize.  In other words, a death sentence for me.
And I have GOOD insurance. My care is 100x better than all the people I work with on Medicaid.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: LMAshton on May 04, 2020, 12:06:14 am
Dyany, that's so horrible! I'm so sorry. What a huge amount of stress that must be.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on May 04, 2020, 01:14:04 am
Roper, I am so puzzled at your interpretation of what has happened.   I'd say that the virus response has absolutely proven that our free medical system is nimble enough to respond really well to hard choices. 
Well, the documentation of Trump's negligent response and his continual dismissal of science early on are plentiful and conclusive. And our market based medical system is nimble? How many weeks did we have a shortage of respirators, testing kits, and even basic PPE for responders? Sure, we're finally starting to catch our breath, so to speak. I hope that in November we don't forget how Donald Trump's narcissism and incompetence cost lives. I hope we don't forget that our privatized health system put profit ahead of people for so long that when the pandemic hit, the shortages cost lives. Our response continually improved because of the tens of thousands of individuals who made unbelievable sacrifices. Trump and the insurance companies don't get the credit.
When I honestly look at it, I was never short on supplies that I needed. I could use the CAPR on the very first patient that I took care of that was simply on a Corona-virus watch. I could get a PCR test the first day I had a fever and upper respiratory symptoms. I was never short on ventilators. My anesthesia machines were never taken to be used in the ICU as a ventilator.

There was a lot of hospital commotion about implementing plans that seemed to change day by day. But there was never a supply shortage that put me or my co-workers at any risk higher than what could be expected. I do not think that my results are atypical, but rather pretty common around the country.

Now that I think about it, the big delay in US testing was due to a government entity, the CDC, with one of the reagents that wasn't functioning properly.

Despite that, I am still open to a nationalized health care payor system, if done in a manner that I think is fair (that is the big IF).
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: pnr on May 04, 2020, 09:43:51 pm
[How many weeks did we have a shortage of respirators, testing kits, and even basic PPE for responders?

Why is it Trump's fault (at least any more than the two previous administrations who also failed to re-stock the official stockpile?)   How would socialized medicine improve the problematic supply chain issues, or the impetus over the years to send our prescriptions and medical supply manufacturing to China instead of having capability within our country to ramp up production?

How is it Trump's fault that we don't have enough test kits for a brand new virus unknown to anyone in the world 6 month's ago?
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on May 04, 2020, 10:21:28 pm
It's Trump's fault because before things got bad here, the WHO, which was actually paying attention, had a lot of test kits available and offered them to many countries, including us. We--Trump, that is--refused them, insisting we could provide our own (i.e., there was money to be made).  And he's been gutting the departments responsible for pandemic response for the past 2 years. https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/feb/28/michael-bloomberg/did-donald-trump-fire-pandemic-officials-defund-cd/ (https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/feb/28/michael-bloomberg/did-donald-trump-fire-pandemic-officials-defund-cd/)

He has played favorites with governors, actively had the feds bid against states for supplies he told the states they had to supply for themselves, and denied all culpability except for claiming ownership of any positive progress. In an open press conference postulated about injecting disinfectants as a treatment, not only laughable but dangerous (as evidenced by the rise in poison center and emergency calls from people taking in disinfectants in some way over the next few days), then, rather than admit he was wildly wrong, claimed he had been 'sarcastic' when called out, and mocked the media for "not being to tell when someone is telling a joke."  He pushed untested drugs like hydrochloroquine as possible solutions, forcing such a run that they were unavailable for patients with real conditions they were known to help, and led one unfortunately gormless couple to take something that sounded similar (which was used to treat disease in fish tanks), putting the wife in the hospital and killing the husband.

Shall I go on?
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on May 06, 2020, 07:47:57 am
Politicians lie? Really? When the day comes that someone says politicians tell the truth, then I will sit up & take notice. (Looking for ROFL emoji. I guess this thread will have to be banished to that other forum once the conversation slows down).

They are also full of YKW when it comes to taking wise advice. Maybe they think they are exempt because they know more than anyone else. Did our parents ever say, "Do as I say & not as I do"? That's what the two supposed leaders of our country did. And the sheer gall - in a hospital while visiting a recovered COVID patient, & in a plant that makes face masks during a visit to promote their use. Duh!!!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-tours-touts-mask-factory-—-but-no-mask-for-him/ar-BB13DtUx?ocid=spartanntp

https://www.newsweek.com/mike-pence-regrets-not-wearing-face-mask-mayo-clinic-i-should-have-1501689

BTW, have they stopped to think that if the worst happens to both of them, who is next in line to succeed to the presidency?

An Irish columnist named Fintan O’Toole wrote a devastating op-ed piece about America. He said it has been the object of love & hate, fear & hope, envy & contempt, awe & anger, but now, for the first time ever, is pitied.

I almost wanted to die of shame reading it, knowing how much of it was true. We “pity” third world countries with inept dictators, where corrupt officials steal humanitarian food cargoes, girls are kept from getting higher education, & mail within a city takes six weeks. But pity for America?

The world economic, military, & diplomatic power? The leader in scientific research, technological application, & industrial innovation? The country that stood for freedom & peace? We were the “arsenal of democracy” & saved the world from falling under the Ottoman Empire, the Third Reich, & finally the Iron Curtain. Two wise leaders, one American & one Russian, made the Berlin Wall go away. The U.S. is the only country to send people to the moon, & the home of more Nobel laureates than the next five countries combined.

And today, we have fully a third of the world’s known cases, & almost a third of the deaths, of this illness that Trump keeps calling “the Chinese virus.” But that is not why this writer talks about the world pitying America. The pandemic is just the stage where the events are happening that he says are causing all this pity. I hope people around the world realize that the majority of Americans are decent people despite the many who have been trapped by (or refuse to acknowledge & repudiate) rhetoric that plays on fear, suspicion, racial & class rivalry, & bigotry. Those are as old as America, but good leaders & good Americans condemn them rather than inflame & exploit them. I hope people around the world know that millions of us are not happy with what we see in Washington, the blundering & mishandling of the pandemic as well as our political situation in general. We hate the world’s pity, but if we want to regain its love or hate, respect or fear, or again be seen as President Reagan’s “shining city on a hill,” it won’t happen with the current crop of leaders.

The original op-ed was in the Irish Times, which has a paywall. But here is a reprint.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RedditForGrownups/comments/g9cg3t/fintan_otoole_donald_trump_has_destroyed_the/

Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: pnr on May 06, 2020, 10:51:12 am
It's Trump's fault because before things got bad here, the WHO, which was actually paying attention, had a lot of test kits available and offered them to many countries, including us. We--Trump, that is--refused them, insisting we could provide our own

Joe Biden did claim that, but  politifact says that is mostly false:
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/mar/16/joe-biden/biden-falsely-says-trump-administration-rejected-w/

As for the funding issues --- funding is entirely Congressional responsibility.   It has the sole ability to appropriate funds.   When the President doesn't ask for enough, then Congress is responsible for passing enough anyway.  (And I've not heard anything that suggests previous Presidents asked for more for that purpose either.)   So if there has been insufficient funding,  again, how is Trump to blame?

(The link posted by the OP I quoted labelled the two claims that TRUMP did something bad as Half Truth.)
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: JLM on May 06, 2020, 12:50:08 pm
Term limits on everyone.  Senate, house, scotus.

Senate: 2 terms
House: 4 terms
scotus: 20 years
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on May 06, 2020, 01:13:18 pm
Quote
As for the funding issues...

I didn't say anything about funding. I said he gutted the departments responsible for response. I didn't mean financially. He fired or pushed out much of the departments, including eliminating positions. That's not Congress. That's him.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on May 06, 2020, 01:33:39 pm
The couple that ingested fish tank cleaner were well educated Democrats. The wife is now under investigation for murder. This makes much more sense than the narrative that the media was pushing, of a dumb couple so devoid of common sense and enammored with the gold that pours out of President Trumps lips that they immediately went and thought that fish tank cleaner was the same thing as medicine.

Anyone who came away from watching President Trump's press briefing where he wondered aloud how disinfectant could be used to kill the virus, and thinking that he was encouraging people to inject it is absolutely being misled by a narrative that is being pushed by the media and others. They made that throwaway line (meaning thinking out loud) the headline for 3 or 4 days, ignoring all of the other important things that were occurring.

In none of the reports on an increase in poison control center calls is there any mention of the increase being because of people following the media's narrative that people should ingest disinfectant. The increase was compared to the same couple of days from a year ago, failing to note that an increase had been happening since the lockdowns began, well before that throwaway line occurred. This is much more likely due to more people stuck at home in an infectious outbreak, so they are cleaning their homes more. More exposure will naturally lead to more calls.

The delay in testing supplies is not because of funding cuts or "gutting". The delay was not because the US did not use the WHO's test. The delay was due to a problem with one of the reagents that led to individual labs not being able to get consistent results at their own laboratories. Without the use of a time machine to know the outcome of that reagent, at the government, policy making level, choosing to go with the CDC's test was not a wrong choice.

Trump does not keep calling this the "Chinese virus". It has been weeks since he made the decision to stop calling it that.

There is a very carefully crafted disinformation and propaganda campaign being waged right now by the Chinese government and their surrogates. Unfortunately, the Democrats' goal of unseating President Trump aligns with much of the propaganda. Some day it may align with the Republicans. In either case be wary when all the pushed narratives seem to align with what we wish to be true, or our own preconceptions.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on May 06, 2020, 04:29:10 pm
I'm saddened that "re-open the economy!" has now become a rally cry for Christian politics. Would Jesus care more about investors losing money, or more about people being able to breathe? When did the Gospel of Prosperity become more important than the Gospel of Salvation?
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on May 06, 2020, 06:15:37 pm
President Nelson just gave us another message.

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/president-nelson-addresses-efforts-for-reintegration-of-church-worship-and-activities

It's so reassuring to hear a reasonable, calm voice from someone who listens to what the Lord tells him & doesn't have an agenda except what God wants for His children.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on May 06, 2020, 06:59:24 pm
I believe President Nelson is the most hopeful and reassuring person I have ever known.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on May 06, 2020, 07:16:32 pm
I'm saddened that "re-open the economy!" has now become a rally cry for Christian politics. Would Jesus care more about investors losing money, or more about people being able to breathe? When did the Gospel of Prosperity become more important than the Gospel of Salvation?
I do not think dealing with this virus is an either/or proposition. Not being able to provide food for a family, pay the mortgage or rent, electricity, and other bills is a huge stress. Using up ones lifetime of savings is a huge stress. There is commonly reported increases in suicides and domestic violence. Lockdowns have tremendous negative consequences, and it is not unreasonable to take those into consideration.

The lockdown measures will not eliminate the virus. They will result in a second wave. The number of total infectious may be the same year on year. The number of deaths will hopefully be lower, but that is unknown. There is a lot of unknown.

The lockdown buys time. Time to try and develop an effective antiviral regiment. Time to try and develop a vaccine and give artificial herd immunity.

What happens if neither of those things occurs? Thus far we have been striking out on an effective antiviral regiment. It took decades to figure it out for HIV/AIDS. While we hope that a particular spike protein remains stable in this corona virus, there has been increased observation of rapid genetic changes occurring with this virus that might make our sought after vaccines ineffective. If the lock-down does not result in an antiviral regiment or an effective vaccination before destroying the country, then the lockdown strategy will have been the wrong strategy. Controlled natural herd immunity might have been the better course of action. As that is something within our current power, some might advocate for it.

Making predictions is hard, especially about the future.

In light of that, many will be advocating for things that might somehow align with their pre-existing notions on both sides of the argument. I am certainly not immune to this, though I hope that my consciousness of it helps me minimize it.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: pnr on May 06, 2020, 07:20:56 pm
Quote
As for the funding issues...

I didn't say anything about funding. I said he gutted the departments responsible for response. I didn't mean financially. He fired or pushed out much of the departments, including eliminating positions. That's not Congress. That's him.

But your own link said that it isn't at all clear that he gutted pandemic people, and he was elected to downsize government.   Most states did the same thing over the last 20 years, closing government labs thinking private sector would take care of what they used to do, downsizing publiic health departments relying on technology for contact tracing, and the like.   You can blame the current president, but it was mostly all about not thinking this was needed so much anymore (likely egged on by how the world managed H1N1 flu, and SARS).
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: nitasmile on May 06, 2020, 07:55:02 pm

Jason, have you shared your thoughts about the video by those 2 doctors with the clinic as well as the video with Judy Mikowitz.
Not sure if you have already said or if these are being discussed elsewhere.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: nitasmile on May 06, 2020, 07:59:21 pm

This article says the fish tank death is only being investigated as homicide as a protocol.
So hard to know who to believe. I do feel Trump only said he was sarcastic due to people being upset with what he had said.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8270725/Homicide-detectives-investigating-death-Arizona-man-drank-fish-tank-cleaner.html
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on May 06, 2020, 09:49:12 pm
Trump's response to the disinfectant was typical Trump, which is never admit he made a mistake. This drives many people crazy, including those on the right.

I posted a few times on Facebook my thoughts on those 2 California urgent care owners in California who wanted to more quickly open up the economy. They could have used a peer review of their data before holding a press conference, as they completely misinterpreted their data. Their claim to fame was that they had some of their own data. Statistical analysis is not my area of expertise, but even I could immediately spot a flaw in their presentation. They took the percentage of positive tests and extrapolated that across the state. They neglected to take into account that their tests were not general population surveys, but rather were limited to people with fevers, upper respiratory symptoms, and in high risk professions or admitted to the hospital for difficulty breathing. Their tests cold only be extrapolated to that population, not across the entire state.

A reporter pointed this out at about minute 8 of the video, but they seemed to gloss over it or didn't realize what was being said. The reporter was actually being helpful, but I think could have pressed with a couple more follow-up questions. While I would like the economy to open much quicker than my governor is doing (leading from way behind), those 2 physicians should not be the spokespeople.

I have not seen Judy Mikovitz, though I expect I will come across it soon.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on May 06, 2020, 11:24:12 pm
Maybe Nauvoo is sending Facebook information about what I am reading here, but my conspiracy theory loving people are now going wild with Dr. Mikovitz. She believes that wearing a mask reactivates endogenous viruses, because we rebreathe toxic CO2, and that this then causes the COVID-19 syndrome, not the Coronavirus. The endogenous virus might be a retrovirus that we all got when we got the 2013 or 2014 flu vaccine.

She was a former virologist who had some sort of a breakthrough finding an infectious cause of chronic fatigue syndrome. But then her papers were retracted because other researchers claimed that she had put those infectious agents there herself, because they found bacterial plasmid DNA in her samples, which are used as vectors to put new DNA/RNA into something else. She denies that. She has her own conspiracy theory about how this all came about.

Also, if you find "a former ER doctor" Rashid Buttar, I wasted 45 minutes of my life watching an interview with him. Among many things he said, he claimed that the sudden lung damage that occurs during COVID-19 is not from the coronavirus, but rather from lung cancer that is caused by 5G networks. The Coronavirus pandemic is all a big hoax and conspiracy perpetrated by Dr. Fauci and Bill Gates in order to make money off of vaccinations and 5G networks.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on May 07, 2020, 01:21:21 am
Was the CDC told that its detailed manual for reopening America "would never see the light of day"? Say it ain't so, that the federal government is not censoring medical doctors, microbiologists, public health experts, & other scientists who work for the federal government.

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/AP-Exclusive-Admin-shelves-CDC-guide-to-15252647.php
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on May 07, 2020, 09:09:15 pm
I also posted this on Facebook, but thought I would share here.

Today I tested my carbon dioxide and oxygen levels with no mask, a simple surgical mask, and a fit tested N95 mask. My results might surprise you (click baity, eh?). But first some background as to why I did this.

During the last week I have heard a lot about possible downsides of wearing a mask. This has culminated in many people linking to an interview of 2 individuals who claim that wearing masks is harmful as it will increase the rebreathing of carbon dioxide to a toxic level, which will depress the immune system, reactivate dormant viruses secretly placed via the flu vaccines of 2013/14, which, in combination with the 5G cellular network, will result in massive damage to lungs, which is then falsely attributed to the Corona virus, mostly so that Bill Gates and Anthony Fauci can make money off of vaccinations. Others have rebuffed those conspiracies quite thoroughly and I intend to focus on my results of my own carbon dioxide levels. (I wish I was making up that conspiracy, but that is the story I found when going down their deep rabbit hole).

As an anesthesiologist, 2 of my main monitors during surgery are capnometry and capnography, which are the measurement and graphing of the carbon dioxide that is inhaled and exhaled. Anesthesiologists spend thousands of hours staring at the capnogram and making small ventilator adjustments. We use a sampling port that draws in about 200 mL of air per minute, which is then sent through an infrared scanner to give us the results of what is in that sampled air. This instrument also gives us the inhaled and expired oxygen levels. As a refresher, the oxygen we breathe in is used to metabolize carbohydrates, proteins, and fats to create energy with waste products of carbon dioxide and water. We breathe out that carbon dioxide. The normal range of CO2 in the blood stream is a pCO2 of 35-45. Our bodies have a tremendous capacity to regulate carbon dioxide, through buffering, respiration, and finally the kidneys.

I tested over a period of 30-45 minutes, going back and forth between masks and no mask, and allowing time to reach an equilibrium. While there was no significant difference in my exhaled CO2 between tests, there was a difference in my inhaled CO2. With no mask, I was rebreathing a pCO2 equivalent of 1. With the simple surgical mask, 2-3, and with the fit tested N95, 1-2. My inspired oxygen was always 21% (which is normal atmospheric levels), and my expired oxygen levels were 14%-16%, which is what I would expect from a normal metabolism. My SpO2 levels remained constant at 97%-98% the entire time.

So my little experiment showed that there is rebreathing of some carbon dioxide when wearing a mask. But is that amount that is rebreathed significant or harmful? No, it isn't. I will give you an example of why not. I noticed over the course of my 30-45 minutes of testing that my exhaled CO2 went up 5-6 points consistently. This was both with and without masks. I also noticed that my respiratory rate went up from 13 to 18 breaths per minute. What does that mean? It was an hour after I had eaten lunch, and my body was now metabolizing that delicious broccoli, cauliflower, and olive oil I had eaten (The one true diet!). There was now increased CO2 in my body, so my body naturally increased the respiratory rate to get rid of it. If a 5-6 point difference on exhaled CO2 is standard after every light meal, then a 1-2 point difference on inhaled CO2 when wearing a mask is well within our bodies’ compensatory limits.

Bottom line result of my trial: wearing any of these masks will not increase the rebreathed CO2 anywhere close to a level that will be harmful.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jen on May 08, 2020, 12:49:33 pm
I got a little dizzy during one procedure wearing an N-95 mask yesterday. It was during a particularly stressful couple of minutes, though. The rest of the day I was fine.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on May 10, 2020, 01:30:03 am
CDC recommendations for restarting life got buried.

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/AP-Exclusive-Top-White-House-officials-buried-15257892.php

So did a company’s offer to prioritize making masks if the feds wanted a contract.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/in-the-early-days-of-the-pandemic-the-us-government-turned-down-an-offer-to-manufacture-millions-of-n95-masks-in-america/2020/05/09/f76a821e-908a-11ea-a9c0-73b93422d691_story.html 

Who is getting battered the worst, other than health providers (bless them)? Ethnic minorities & working-class women who can’t tele-work, lots of folks of the kind who work at places like Mar-a-Lago. I hate to have to even think about it, but what difference would it make if the virus were hitting hardest at certain other demographic groups?

https://www.npr.org/2020/05/09/853073274/women-bear-the-brunt-of-coronavirus-job-losses   

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/08/navajo-nation-coronavirus

https://www.apmresearchlab.org/covid/deaths-by-race

And it isn’t only people in high places that are behaving badly, but “regular” people too. Although I’d have to reconsider how regular some of them are. Klan & Nazi face masks, what the #*!! is wrong with some "Americans"? Not to mention the few (but still too many) cases where someone was hurt or killed over a request to wear a mask, like the security guard at the Detroit dollar store.

White pointy-headed hood.  https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Outrage-over-grocery-shopper-wearing-Klan-hood-in-15245271.php

Swastika.  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8303263/Couple-wear-masks-SWASTIKAS-grocery-shopping-California.html 

The protesters at the Michigan state capitol, some with military type assault rifles that they took into the Capitol building itself & confronted state police, unnerved many legislators. One African-American member was so concerned that she was escorted to the Capitol by a group of African-American civilians exercising their own right to bear arms. I can't say I blame her, considering how politicized this health crisis has become & how much of the rabid “protesting” that goes beyond First Amendment expression is by people connected to racist or rogue "conservative" groups that few real conservatives would want any part of.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/07/michigan-lawmaker-armed-escort-rightwing-protest

And last but not least, THANK YOU President Bush & President/First Lady Obama. You are appreciated more than you may know … or maybe you do know. We miss you.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/08/politics/barack-obama-george-w-bush-coronavirus-leadership/index.html
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on May 11, 2020, 10:54:04 am
There's an interesting in the NYT entitled "How Pandemics End." Here is an excerpt:

Quote
According to historians, pandemics typically have two types of endings: the medical, which occurs when the incidence and death rates plummet, and the social, when the epidemic of fear about the disease wanes.

“When people ask, ‘When will this end?,’ they are asking about the social ending,” said Dr. Jeremy Greene, a historian of medicine at Johns Hopkins.

In other words, an end can occur not because a disease has been vanquished but because people grow tired of panic mode and learn to live with a disease. Allan Brandt, a Harvard historian, said something similar was happening with Covid-19: “As we have seen in the debate about opening the economy, many questions about the so-called end are determined not by medical and public health data but by sociopolitical processes.”

You can read the entire article here: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/10/health/coronavirus-plague-pandemic-history.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/10/health/coronavirus-plague-pandemic-history.html)
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on May 11, 2020, 03:34:50 pm
Now we see why it was so important to enforce the Defense Production Act to get those meat packing plants back up while hundreds of workers were out sick.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-meatpacking-an-idUSKBN22N0IN
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on May 12, 2020, 11:50:33 am
Mask or no mask?

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/White-House-mandates-masks-but-not-for-Trump-15263048.php

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/mike-pence-face-mask-iowa-covid-19_n_5eb88c1ec5b6bb4495e4788d

I guess if you can get tested daily, you don't give a thought to whether any one else is protected, is protecting others, or believes they need to do either. Some people just have to learn everything the hard way. I hope that when they get sick, it isn't too painful.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on May 21, 2020, 06:22:59 pm
One mark of a data and science driven response will be to re-examine what is working and what isn't working well and to implement that. As we do not have double blinded state or country tests, we can still find examples of areas that had a good response and those that did not have a good response to compare them.

Florida did pretty well. New York is by far the worst in the country. They might be good comparisons as they are similar in population and size. Florida might have more elderly, but New York has areas that are a more dense. The density of New York City is not as big a factor, because Tokyo is just as dense and did much, much better than New York. I think one of the biggest distinctions was that Florida developed and distributed a plan early in February that included how to protect nursing homes. Nursing homes would not be forced to take back Covid positive patients from the hospital unless they had the means to isolate them. This ran counter to typical hospital practice, which was to get people in and out as fast as possible. This plan went into effect in mid March. New York put its plan of forcing nursing homes to re-accept Covid positive patients on March 25, and did not change that policy until sometime in May. It is estimated that 25% of the deaths in New York were from nursing homes, and probably due to this policy.

Masks? The jury is still out. Most helpful for those that are currently exhibiting respiratory symptoms. Possibly helpful for asymptomatic people, but this is unknown. This seems to have helped Asian countries.

Lockdown? This does not seem to have helped much beyond an initial unknown period. The extended lockdown is likely harmful in the long run, as it is causing many other harms.

Shutting down schools? This did not help. This was done because they were going off of the influenza playbook, in which school children were a common vector to transmit the flu virus to the elderly. But with Corona virus, there are so few children infected, that this was likely a mistake. Other European countries that did not shut down their schools are nevertheless doing better than the United States. As is repeatedly stated, the Coronavirus is not the influenza virus, so modifications should be made.

Social distancing? This does seem to help. But I think it has diminishing returns with the more strict rules.

Sanitizing everything? It now appears that touching a contaminated object is an unlikely way to become infected. The most common ways appear to be direct droplet spread between people in closer proximity.

Vaccinations? We will know when we get them. But all things point to vaccines being very useful.

Ventilators? Not as useful as we were led to believe. Also not needed in as great of numbers.

N95s and CAPRs? Helpful for me, as I intubated a few Covid positive patients and was never infected. N95s are also helpful for me to mow the lawn and not get overwhelmed with pollen.

Shutting down beaches? This does not appear to have been helpful.

Facebook? I have learned that many of my friends are crazies. But I still love them.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on May 24, 2020, 07:05:58 pm
I have been racking my brains trying to figure out where I had heard of the conspiracy theory about Bill Gates using the Corona virus vaccine to implant brain control microchips into everyone, and I came up with it. It is from Star Wars. The inhibitor chips that were in the clones which forced them to follow order 66. In this scenario Bill Gates is Darth Sidious, aka the emperor.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Redd on May 30, 2020, 10:37:41 am
I can't speak for every one, but I am quite enjoying the lock down-quarantine-house arrest-stay at home thing. I really am quite the homebody as is and I usually do not venture out unless I have a real reason to do so. Right now I am working 1 day a week in the tax office and attending "church" services at a neighbor's house. (We have 4 member's homes within a 20 acre radius).
  I wear a mask in public to make every one else feel good about themselves, I shop on line for things I really do not need but are cute  (I actually have all of my birthday and Christmas shopping done for the family!)  If I need groceries I either make a list and have my son go to the store for me or I make a list and send Hick down to the root cellar for me.  I try to get in at least one nap a day, if not two, and I have learned new skills such as flipping an egg in a frying pan like a short order cook does. (Learning to skype  is next) Even though the temple is out of order for me right now, I still get temple blessings by doing genealogy and indexing. I am getting around to all the little things that I have always wanted to organize or try or create but were too busy to do so because I was sapping my energy by trying to impress others. I still keep in touch with the sisters on my ministering list through social media and my cell phone.  I have worked on exercise and knee physical therapy in home by watching YouTube.
  So what have you all been doing?
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: cook on May 31, 2020, 01:40:02 am
We started school again on May 14th. As I thought, after that it has been very difficult to not think of life as pretty normal. Here on June 1st they open up many places, restaurants and others, though distancing is still asked. From the same date less than 50 people gatherings are allowed, and very soon things like festivals less than 500.

But the area presidency has decided all youth events are cancelled. Like outdoors camps where there are less than 50 people and they can easily sleep in tents only with familymembers. And these are kids who have now been in schools with hundreds of other kids and staff for over two weeks. This I do not like, nor do my kids. I thought the church was supposed to follow the guidelines of the country, not some area president who decides to lump whole Europe together.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Iggy on June 07, 2020, 06:46:28 pm
Where I live in Oregon, they started Phase 1- allowing restaurants to open with proper conditions On June 2nd. 

Then this happened: 124 coronavirus cases reported at Pacific Seafood facilities in Newport, Oregon.

https://www.oregonlive.com/coronavirus/2020/06/65-coronavirus-cases-reported-at-pacific-seafood-facility-in-newport.html

We had been holding at 19 in Lincoln County, stupid greedy Pacific Seafood owners!!!
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on July 15, 2020, 12:41:01 am
This thread has been dormant for over a month, & what a difference a few weeks makes. Was it in June – or was it May or April? – that some people were talking about throwing everything open (although, to be fair, some places barely ever closed). And now the virus is rampant again in some places, including some that were doing decently but got complacent, & also some that scorned sensible precautions & had politicians who were lukewarm or worse about masks & social distancing. It was more important to protect people’s yearning to breathe free, like Lady Liberty says.

California was doing fairly well, but some people got restless (or cocky) & started partying & crowding the beaches. Now the governor has clamped down again because cases are increasing at alarming rates in many counties. Services & businesses that had a chance to reopen & start taking customers are being reclosed, thanks to too many people’s lack of self-discipline. Memorial Day weekend probably did us in. Los Angeles & Orange counties are being overrun, & the rural southernmost county, Imperial, is swamped, partly from cross-border travel by both Mexican citizens with jobs in the U.S. & U.S. citizens with second homes in Mexico. It might be happening in Arizona too. Ironically, Mexico is doing a lot better in overall rates than we are, & they might be wishing for a wall now to keep us out.

In the north, most Bay Area counties are on the state’s “watchlist” to slow reopening until infection rates slow down. San Francisco & San Mateo are the exceptions. SM has about 4,000 cases & 112 fatalities. SF has more cases than SM but is holding the line at 50 deaths. The last one was around 3 weeks ago – in comparison, New York City just had its first day since mid-March with no COVID deaths. San Francisco is very densely populated, especially among immigrants & the homeless, so it’s pretty spectacular that it hasn’t had 100s of people die. In proportion with NYC, it would have lost 2,400 souls by now. I’m hearing masks are almost universal in SF, even for just walking around, & I see the same where I am in SM (the next county south, where some of the towns are Daly City, Pacifica, San Mateo, & Menlo Park). Marin County could be doing worse. It has about 3,000 cases & 30 deaths, including a mini epidemic at San Quentin with 6 inmate deaths [now up to 11, as of July 15] & 1,200 inmates & staff infected. It came from a state prison system blunder, not the county’s doing. SF & SM are well off enough that hospitals there have taken patients from “The Q” & even from Imperial county, 600 miles away.

The Bay Area shouldn’t start boasting yet, but did manage to fend off a big outbreak in March & April while NYC was in such terrible shape, giving hospitals, pharmacies, & other health services time to mobilize. That was the intent of the Bay Area-wide shutdown in mid-March, ahead of the state & before most of the country even thought of it. And some states are now getting serious with their case numbers soaring. People in SF & SM counties have mostly cooperated, although there are always ones who can’t or won’t. Now, we just need to Build The Wall (or close the airports) to keep everyone else from bringing kooties in. If Disney World & the Las Vegas casinos want to be open & pack in the bodies, I don’t want folks from there coming here, or Bay Area people going there & bringing the kooties home.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on July 15, 2020, 01:08:53 am
I am skeptical that the virus was transmitted readily at beaches or other outdoor gatherings. Most of the transmissions would have occurred indoors in close proximity, which would be busses, restaurants, possibly stores.

Most areas followed a phased reopening. Some areas with the biggest lockdowns and the slowest reopenings (Washington state being one of them) are also seeing resurgences in case numbers.

The statistics puzzles are fascinating to follow, because the puzzle has many pieces missing. Such as why are hospitalizations and deaths not increasing proportionately (Washington state), even taking into account a 2 or 4 week delay? The hypotheses are that the virus hit the more vulnerable people early on and is now spreading among a younger population, the virus has mutated to a more gentle version, hospital therapies have improved, the more vulnerable population is taking this seriously and taking appropriate precautions. Time will tell.

One thing that has remained the same is that my conspiracy theory loving friends still love every conspiracy theory that comes out.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on July 15, 2020, 05:10:48 pm
I am skeptical that the virus was transmitted readily at beaches or other outdoor gatherings. Most of the transmissions would have occurred indoors in close proximity, which would be busses, restaurants, possibly stores.
That's consistent with the reports I've heard, Jason. When there's even a slight movement of air outside, the particles rapidly dissipate and the transmission risk plummets.

I'm saddened that in my area, there are people protesting against schools for planning to require students to wear masks (per governor's order) in the classroom when school starts again next month. Seriously??!! Do people have their heads up their posteriors? What do they think will happen? I'll tell you with absolute certainty: The state health department will shut down the school and everyone will be back to online school. Oliver Wendell Holmes, the most influential Supreme Court Justice of the last century, put it this way, "The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins." You don't get to come into a public school and impose a severe health risk on everyone else just because you think you have some omnipotent "right."
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on July 15, 2020, 06:58:46 pm
The family of one of the sisters I minister to has had COVID recently. Their handicapped son (16 yo) is in PICU.
A good friend of mine, young and very fit, now has permanent damage to her heart and it still hurts to breathe months later because of this disease.

And yet we have a member of our ward openly denouncing and defying the county mask mandate, and my friend has been directly told that she didn't REALLY have COVID because it's a hoax and "they are just lying to you."

Oh, and the governor of Oklahoma, who has resisted any lockdowns and has been mocking and refusing masks for ages, who went unmasked to a Walmart on Saturday and out to eat with friends, has now tested positive. The restaurant he ate at had to shut completely down to get everyone tested.

This disease is bad. But people are making it far, far worse.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jen on July 15, 2020, 07:24:01 pm
My 82-year-old mom with pretty much every comorbidity is being tested tomorrow. Most of my family has believed that this is being blown out of proportion, and she believes especially my oldest brother who can do no wrong. Now she's having symptoms and my sister who was very sick for 6 weeks is taking her to be tested tomorrow.

My SIL is rage spamming post after post about how this is just another flu and masks are bad.

Kinda hate people right now. And I hope my mom doesn't have this, because it's pretty certain she won't survive it.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jen on July 15, 2020, 07:36:25 pm
We also found out this week that one of the patients at the clinic where I work died from COVID-19. She was about my age and was pretty healthy before this hit her. She came in feeling just fine for a routine visit 3 weeks ago. Now she's dead. It takes people down so fast.

The rhetoric I'm hearing right now is that the numbers are being artificially inflated. I wonder, if anything, if there are a lot more people who've had it than we even know. Not everyone gets tested. There are strange symptoms that don't seem like they should be related, like blood clotting.

In the last couple of months a 49-year-old woman in my ward and my daughter's friend's 55-year-old dad died from massive heart attacks. I don't think either one had previously diagnosed heart problems; especially the woman who was very fit and active. I really wonder if they had it and didn't know it.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on July 15, 2020, 08:07:40 pm
There is growing evidence that it is more of a circulatory/clotting disease than directly respiratory. It's taking out people's hearts, brains, pancreases, livers, and kidneys, and lots of the lung damage is also from the clotting problems. Some people are losing limbs in the hospital because of it.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: pnr on July 16, 2020, 08:52:50 am
For anyone who might want a mask that doesn't cover up their face for the next two years or so.   This just got fully funded.   It is pricey, but it no doubt qualifies for funding from your FSA account if you left money in it when you were laid off and are trying to spend it.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/leaf-mask-world-s-first-fda-uv-c-n99-clear-mask?utm_campaign=contribution_receipt&utm_content=receipt-campaign_link&utm_medium=email&utm_source=lifecycle#/
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: LMAshton on July 16, 2020, 10:25:19 am
pnr, that mask looks fabulous! Thanks!
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Taalcon on July 16, 2020, 10:58:32 am
Meanwhile, my Governor has actively rescinded any cities or counties' local mask mandate orders, and has made clear no one in the state is allowed to go stricter than he wants them to be. Which is not at all.

I'm ... not convinced safety and public health of his constituents is his priority.
https://apnews.com/71bc07efaebc1b2d3b9aaf9bdc795d5d
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: nitasmile on July 16, 2020, 12:55:39 pm
Taalcon, What is wrong with your governor?
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: JLM on July 16, 2020, 01:36:21 pm
He's a Trump lackey.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on July 16, 2020, 01:48:55 pm
My schadenfreude is not enough. So many people get it without symptoms or with mild symptoms, and few enough people in low population areas are getting it right now that too many people refuse to take it seriously. It is to the point--and I know that I am a horrible person to even think this--that I am seriously wishing that a vocal, big name critic of safety measures (such as one of these governors or the cheeznip-in-chief) get it and have some of the far more serious and debilitating cases. I feel that is the only thing that will wake people up and start to realize this has nothing to do with freedom and everything to do with being a decent human being.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: pnr on July 16, 2020, 09:37:45 pm
Or maybe he simply believes that individuals should want to live badly enough that government shouldn't be deciding to make them wear them.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Taalcon on July 16, 2020, 10:54:07 pm
You should see all the comments on our local news and government Facebook pages from actual local constituents that simply do not believe the most basic science of masks.

And many of those that actually DO are actively saying they do not care about wearing a mask just for the benefit of others.

... and an overly large portion of my Ward members fall into one of those two categories.

Without mandates, Georgia is screwed.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on July 17, 2020, 12:25:32 am
Quote
Or maybe he simply believes that individuals should want to live badly enough that government shouldn't be deciding to make them wear them.

I don't buy that for a second. I think that there are a lot of people in this country who have developed really twisted ideas of what constitutes 'freedom.' Because it's far less about wearing masks to keep themselves safe, which the freedom screamers refuse to believe anyway. The bottom line is that this pandemic CAN be slowed and CAN be contained. New Zealand proves the first and most other first world countries prove the second. We can wait for a vaccine, but it can be contained and the deleterious effects can be mitigated, but only when the MAJORITY of people CHOOSE the good. But just as the Nephites of old, we are refusing, in some twisted and self-righteous sense of hubris.
The hospitals could be at tolerable levels.
Permanent health issues could be avoided.
The long term impacts to GDP and health costs from those permanent health issues could be avoided.
The trauma of families unable to even say goodbye to mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, children who are taken too soon--that could be avoided, along with the inevitable financial and health consequences thereof.
We have had some knowledge and tools from early on, and we have gained more. We could do it.

But when asked kindly, we harden our hearts against it. When commanded, we tremble and anger against it. Our 'right' to be selfish, horrible people has trumped the love we must have for each other.

Those who choose evil are more than those who choose good. We have become ripened in iniquity, and it is THAT which will destroy us. The disease and the riots and the mass shootings are only the tools by which we do it.

Is there hope that we can turn this around? Yes, though slim. God and Christ are standing with open arms to receive us. How oft would they gather us as a hen gathereth her chicks! But every time we choose to argue that masks are 'slavery' and that the freedom to keep this virus killing is an inalienable right, the more we turn from God. The more we refuse His protection. The more we refuse His grace. The more we damn ourselves to an eternity of regret.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on July 17, 2020, 12:50:53 am
Without mandates, Georgia is screwed.

Ain't only Georgia.

See, this is why we can’t have nice things.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/school-hearing-dismissed-after-angry-parents-pack-room-without-masks/ar-BB16PALa?ocid=msedgntp

I hope none of them were Church members who had sustained their leaders & say they believe Church leaders are called of God.

https://www.deseret.com/faith/2020/7/10/21320807/mormon-covid-19-pandemic-masks-church-latter-day-saints-in-utah

When did a simple public health measure become a battle of philosophies, the "Don't Tread on Me" crowd vs. the "Sheeple" crowd? How is it we've reverse-evolved to the degree that so many people care so little about the welfare of their families, neighbors, total strangers they've never even seen before, not to mention being foolhardy with their own health?

Many of us had grandparents live through WWII, when travel was limited, there was rationing of gasoline, shoes, meat, & many other items, & people were supposed to be in their houses after certain hours. If our country in 1943 had had the kind of unity, civic spirit, patience, & kindly regard for neighbors that we see in many parts of the U.S. today, we would now be goose-stepping past the Swastika flag & the emperor of Japan would have a vacation home on the Kona coast.

In fact, I believe that under some different circumstances, we would have a very different outcome. I can't name those circumstances because we have another thread about how politics has impacted our country's response to COVID & I don't want to drag that over here. But when public officials make the health of 300,000,000 Americans a matter for political debate about "freedoms," influencing millions of the easily persuaded & manipulated (talk about "Sheeple"! ::) ha ha), & thousands of people die who might be alive today, something is very wrong in our country.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jen on July 17, 2020, 03:00:26 pm
You should see all the comments on our local news and government Facebook pages from actual local constituents that simply do not believe the most basic science of masks.



I read a Twitter comment this morning claiming that masks decrease your oxygen by 30%  ???


In other news, my brother just let me know that he and his wife are sick and just tested positive. We were with them and my mom on the 4th. Outside, but together. Still waiting on my mom's test.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on July 17, 2020, 10:27:27 pm
I cringe at the constant disinformation flooding the internet about masks and oxygen levels, CO2 levels, anti-vaccination nonsense, and 5G. While rigorous scientific consensus regarding the effectiveness in the general public's use of varying quality masks is lacking, it is a relatively benign intervention that likely will help reduce the spread of the corona virus. However, I do not want to see the use of a mask elevated to the status of a Pharisaical phylactery, because masks are only one tool in infection control of the corona virus. Other important tools are more unseen, such as staying home, hygiene, socially distancing, getting tested if needed, self isolation (even at the expense of income), and protecting the nursing homes.

My state had one of the most stringent lockdowns, very slow re-opening, mandatory mask wearing, and still has seen a significant rise in absolute number of cases since early June. However, hospitalizations have been relatively stable, deaths have been decreasing, and ventilator use is at a low since before the peaks in late March/early April. This is a much more complicated picture. Complete information is definitely missing.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on July 19, 2020, 11:49:16 am
Utah County, where I live, is now a Coronavirus hotspot because the number of cases is rapidly rising. It's also an anti-mask hotspot. Demonstrations are planned for this week for people to gather without masks and march into stores which require masks. And now, people who are wearing masks are being shamed as "socialists" and being portrayed as trying to take away other people's freedom. Again, what do they think will happen? We're heading to another quarantine, and they want us to get there faster? There's already rumblings of a new anti-vax movement--people who are already refusing to get a vaccine and refusing to give it to their children once it becomes available. The worst part is this: Members of my ward are some are the most vocal organizers and supporters of the local anti-mask and anti-vax movement. If this spills over into church, I'm simply not going. I refuse to expose my family. I'm so thankful we have a prophet who led the inspired implementation of a home program.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: cook on July 19, 2020, 11:58:16 am
Quote
    Demonstrations are planned for this week for people to gather without masks and march into stores which require masks. And now, people who are wearing masks are being shamed as "socialists" and being portrayed as trying to take away other people's freedom. 

Just speechless. Though actually, I am sad to say, not alltogether surprised. Very sad indeed.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Taalcon on July 19, 2020, 12:25:59 pm
The worst part is this: Members of my ward are some are the most vocal organizers and supporters of the local anti-mask and anti-vax movement. If this spills over into church, I'm simply not going. I refuse to expose my family. I'm so thankful we have a prophet who led the inspired implementation of a home program.

This is sacrily accurate as to how things look to be in our ward. Our Stake has good sane leadership. Far too many of our ward members look like, well, *gestures to your post*.

My wife and I have had to hide many of our ward members from our Facebook feeds because their posts have been so disgusting and ignorant. And trying to politely reason and suggest other sources simply doesn't work.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on July 19, 2020, 12:57:01 pm
This has been our local experience:
-stake reopens meetings with social distancing policies. We go once, only 1 other family and the deacons and priests dealing with sacrament wear masks (besides us).
-A vulnerable family in our ward caught COVID-19. Father very sick, MIL somewhat sick. Handicapped teen son VERY sick, has been in the PICU for over a week now. Mom keeps posting updates, and between those and my calls with her (I minister to her), it is clear that she doesn't think it's a real issue (she was almost asymptomatic) and is constantly shocked that her vulnerable son keeps getting worse instead of better.
-state was in phased reopening stage 4, but our county has had a bad enough rise in cases and deaths that they roll back to a modified stage 3 (more restrictive than the regular stage 3 we had been in a couple of weeks before). Area and Stake presidencies don't think read the full order and believe it's normal stage 3, which allows religious meetings up to 99 people rather than the actual current law of no more than 50 people, and as such keep meetings going.
-numbers in our area get worse. Local health district issues mandate that everyone in the county must wear a mask when social distancing is difficult or impossible.
-A far-right jackhole in our ward, knowing about the family struggling with the disease just a couple of blocks away, openly and derisively refuses to wear masks to church or anywhere (also boycotting all stores in the county and all chains which are now requiring masks). Because 'freedom.'
-Our stake presidency finally looks at the information more closely--possibly also the rude and selfish reactions of ward members--and decides to stop church meetings again. Thank heavens.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on July 20, 2020, 08:19:43 pm
Utah issued a Public Health Order for face coverings in all public schools effective immediately and continuing through Dec. 31st. I've included the relevant sections of the order below. Since I am serving as the director of my school, I will be strictly enforcing this order. I will be requiring ANYONE on school property without a face covering to provide a signed medical directive for the exemption (other exemptions noted below). I have no hesitation to calling law enforcement when people put children at risk.

Quote
2. Each individual, including an employee, student, or visitor, on school property or
on a school bus shall wear a face covering, except as provided in Section (3).

3. Section (2) does not apply to:

a. an individual while maintaining a physical distance of at least six feet from any
other individual when outdoors;
b. an individual who is eating or drinking while indoors and maintains a physical
distance of at least six feet from any other individual;
c. a child who:
i. is younger than three years of age; or
ii. is three years old or older if the parent, guardian, or individual
responsible for caring for the child cannot place the face covering
safely on the child's face;
d. an individual with a medical condition, mental health condition, or disability
that prevents wearing a face covering, including an individual with a medical
condition for whom wearing a face covering could cause harm or dangerously
obstruct breathing, or who is unconscious, incapacitated, or otherwise unable
to remove a face covering without assistance;
e. an individual who is deaf or hard of hearing while communicating with
others, or an individual who is communicating with an individual who is deaf
or hard of hearing, where the ability to see the mouth is essential for
communication, in which case a face shield or alternative protection such as a
plexiglass barrier should be used;
f. an individual who has an Individualized Education Program (IEP) under the
Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, 20 U.S.C. section 1414, or an
accommodation under Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, 29
U.S.C. section 794, that would necessitate exempting the individual from
wearing a face covering;
g. an individual who is receiving or providing a service involving the
nose or face for which temporary removal of the face covering is
necessary to perform the service; or
h. an individual participating in a school sponsored activity or physical
education class as long as the individual complies with Appendix C of the
Phased Guidelines for the General Public and Businesses to Maximize Public
Health and Economic Reactivation.

4. A school may require an individual to provide a medical directive verifying a need for an
exemption under Subsection (3)(d).
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on July 21, 2020, 12:19:29 am
-A far-right jackhole in our ward, knowing about the family struggling with the disease just a couple of blocks away, openly and derisively refuses to wear masks to church or anywhere (also boycotting all stores in the county and all chains which are now requiring masks). Because 'freedom.'

Great news for these "jackholes," who think their freedom means the right to endanger the health of anyone who comes near them. The "president" is now doing another of his famous 180's & suggesting there may be some patriotic merit in wearing a mask. Forget that so recently he mocked mask wearers, suggested they looked weak (he has such a horror of looking "weak," there must be some psychological explanation for that), was terrified of the press catching him in one, but then decided that a black cover over his air-holes made him look like the Lone Ranger.  ;D ;D ;D
 
* Cue up "William Tell Overture."   8) 8) 8)  *

Yup, now the bare-faced champions of freedom can safely cover up, knowing that the supreme leader approves & no longer considers masks wussy.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trumps-sudden-push-for-mask-wearing-follows-allies-defections/ar-BB16Z9Dq?ocid=msedgntp

It's sad to think so many Church members could be among the people willing & eager to expose their neighbors to a contagious disease just to Make A Statement about their Freedom. And a shame that the SP had to make the difficult decision to suspend meetings again because some people were so obstinate. As I said before, this is why we can't have nice things.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on July 21, 2020, 07:25:07 pm
Sadly, I know way too many far right people who don't care what Trump does (some don't even like Trump), they have decided masks are for 'sheep' on their own.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: GoodyScrivener on July 21, 2020, 11:39:12 pm
(he has such a horror of looking "weak," there must be some psychological explanation for that)

I follow a book blog from Barnes & Noble. One of today's entries was an excerpt from the new book written by his niece. The specific excerpt was focused on her own father (DJT's older brother) and grandfather. From the small part I read, it's pretty apparent that the grandfather was a control freak and a bully. 
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on July 29, 2020, 12:15:11 am
Have you always wanted a storybook wedding at a historic church that you recognize from the movies, that would have people talking about it for a long time to come? One where, when you were 60 & had grandkids, they would clamor around & say, “Gumba & Gummy, tell us about your wedding at that beautiful church, when all those people ….”
 
This couple had one, & may now wish they hadn’t. All those people – 10 of them including the newlyweds – got coronavirus after trying to flout San Francisco’s strict health orders by having a 100-guest wedding on the sly. They are by no means the only people doing it, but they are the ones who got caught by the law of averages, a city official, & the virus. You almost want to pity them, having to spend their honeymoon sick, but OTOH – they had guests from San Diego, Nashville, Arizona, & who know where else, who potentially took the kooties home with them.

And yeah, now people are talking.

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/coronavirus/coronavirus-outbreak-linked-to-wedding-at-iconic-san-francisco-church/2333443/

https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/coronavirus-infects-couple-100-person-wedding-california

https://www.msn.com/en-us/foodanddrink/foodnews/restaurant-from-san-francisco-e2-80-99s-now-infamous-covid-wedding-e2-80-98took-every-precaution-e2-80-99/ar-BB17iafR

https://nypost.com/2020/07/27/halted-san-francisco-wedding-still-leads-to-covid-19-outbreak/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/covid-19-wedding-guests-san-francisco-california-coronavirus-a9640996.html
 
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8565003/San-Francisco-couple-insisted-wedding-100-GUESTS-diagnosed-COVID-19.html?ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490&ito=1490

Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Taalcon on July 29, 2020, 11:42:40 am
#MaskUp
(https://www.thechurchnews.com/cdn-cgi/image/f=auto,onerror=redirect,fit=cover,g=top,w=700,h=470/wp-content/uploads/mx/AssetCache/543970269154c106afa0fa112bfa7fe4dbbfffbbmoronitimecapsule.0720.chn_ja_1728-scaled.jpg)
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Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on July 29, 2020, 11:45:22 am
Ok, but what I am really curious about now is what historical artifact are they looking at?
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Taalcon on July 29, 2020, 11:49:44 am
https://www.thechurchnews.com/history-revisited/2020-07-29/salt-lake-temple-time-capsule-angel-moroni-capstone-189787
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on July 29, 2020, 11:53:32 am
Tapadh leat! <3
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on August 13, 2020, 10:47:51 pm
This poor kid had to be the grown-up, the parent, the man in the family, the one to literally pick up the howling infant & carry him outside, when his old man lost his marbles in the middle of a Tucson supermarket & went on an insane rant about face masks.

Vulgarity alert: extreme in both text & speech. If all you do is watch the video, mute the audio & don't read the text, you'll still get the idea. The guy in the blue shirt appears to be the "father" & the younger clean-shaven man in the light hat appears to be the son.

I decided to edit out the link because it isn't really appropriate for Nauvoo. Just Google something like "Tucson son carries dad out after supermarket meltdown."

I hope the young man won't feel embarrassed with his friends or peers, but can certainly understand if he does. He did what he had to do.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Sparky on August 14, 2020, 05:49:54 pm
I'm worried about what happened after they left the store. That father seems difficult to live with since he has so much rage, and I can't imagine he would quickly forgive his son for embarrassing him.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on September 16, 2020, 11:58:49 pm
I have been looking into the phase 3 vaccine trials, to see if I could participate in one of them. It would be a 50/50 chance of getting the vaccine or a placebo.

Moderna is an mRNA vaccine. Is close to their 30,000 enrollees. I did the screening questions and was denied. I changed my race to African American and I was accepted. So it looks like they do not yet have enough African Americans enrolled in the trial.

Pfizer is an mRNA vaccine. They have now reached their goal of 30,000 enrollees. They currently want to enroll another 14,000 in the trial to increase the diversity of participants, including bringing down the age to 16, those with stable HIV, HBV, and HCV. If those are the criteria, then I will not be able to join this one.

AstraZeneca is a protein spike vaccine. On their website they are not yet recruiting for the phase 3 trial. Maybe soon.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Sparky on September 17, 2020, 04:24:02 am
Jason, on Facebook, I'm seeing all sorts of memes about how bad an mRNA vaccine is.  Like it completely overwrites your DNA and would be passed down to your kids who are born after getting the vaccine. I know nothing about it. Can you educate me, at least a little, about mRNA and protein spike vaccines? Since you want to be in on the trials, and are an anesthesiologist (I'm correct, right? Are you a doctor?), I thought you might be in the know.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on September 28, 2020, 06:43:07 pm
This deserves to be read
 https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/09/26/restaurant-owner-closing-coronavirus/?arc404=true (https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/09/26/restaurant-owner-closing-coronavirus/?arc404=true)
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on September 29, 2020, 01:00:25 pm
Jason, on Facebook, I'm seeing all sorts of memes about how bad an mRNA vaccine is.  Like it completely overwrites your DNA and would be passed down to your kids who are born after getting the vaccine. I know nothing about it. Can you educate me, at least a little, about mRNA and protein spike vaccines? Since you want to be in on the trials, and are an anesthesiologist (I'm correct, right? Are you a doctor?), I thought you might be in the know.
I actually do not know much about mRNA vaccines. They are a new type of vaccine. Quicker to develop.

mRNA is messenger RNA. It is the blue print code taken from DNA that is used by our cells' machinery to create proteins. mRNA vaccines would likely be a blue print for your cells to build proteins from the virus that your body will then launch an immune response against. But not a complete virus, just the outer parts that our body's would find most useful in detecting the invaders.

My thought is that they will not overwrite DNA, not in sperm, and especially not in eggs, as women's eggs were created while they were still a fetus, so those will cannot be changed. So I do not think they will become permanent parts of our species's genetic makeup. But again, I do not know specifics.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on November 05, 2020, 08:26:30 am
Denmark is planning on killing all of their farmed mink (approximately 17 million) due to a mutation in the virus, so says the government.  There are two concerns: one that the mutation will make the virus resistant to vaccines. Two, that it could start a new pandemic.

Quote
“The worst-case scenario is a new pandemic, starting all over again out of Denmark,” Kare Molbak, director at the State Serum Institute, said, according to Reuters. ----  quote from Fox News article


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/04/health/covid-mink-mutation.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/04/health/covid-mink-mutation.html)

Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on November 05, 2020, 02:24:41 pm
Here are some things that maybe lots of people have wondered about.

We’re told that the main avenue for COVID to get into people is respiratory: we inhale air that contains atomized droplets infected with the virus. Surfaces are less of a threat, & it’s also unlikely to spread by ingestion, so we don’t need to worry about food prepared or touched (or even coughed on, aesthetics aside) by an infected person.

But since there are several ways cooties can get in:

1) If we get it from inhalation, why the emphasis on not touching our eyes? Is it because they have mucous membranes? Does this mean we should be washing our hands before going to the bathroom if we are unsure what we’ve touched?

2) Can we get it through broken skin if someone coughs or sneezes on us (especially on our face where a mask doesn't reach), or if we touch a contaminated surface with a cut finger?
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on November 25, 2020, 01:09:40 am
https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817?_ga=2.44101284.1205753394.1606280300-1513228447.1606280299 (https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817?_ga=2.44101284.1205753394.1606280300-1513228447.1606280299)

This is the link to the Annals of Internal Medicine's recent large Danish study on mask wearing preventing infections. I would suggest reading it. Even if I lack the ability to verify the statistical methods, the authors do a pretty good job of making their main points.

Many narratives are driving how various people are reacting to this study. Please take the study for what it is and try not to interpret it based on a predetermined narrative. It is difficult, but let science lead where it may.

This study does not say that community usage of masks are useless and that mask mandates should be rescinded.
This study does not address whether community usage of masks prevents an infected person from spreading the virus to others.
This study does not address mask wearing in health care settings.
This study does not address N95s.

Here is what the study does say.
Community usage of masks does not appear to protect a masked person from becoming infected.

I like the study because of how high powered it is. I like the study because it examines real world settings, which are more important than laboratory settings. Intent to treat is an important concept. But it even compares those that are not adherent, or only partially adherent. I like the study because other non-mask interventions were also being followed in the community, such as social distancing, frequent hand washing, and quarantining.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on November 25, 2020, 12:18:46 pm
Thank you, Jason. Covering the nose and mouth does not eliminate all the pathways for infection reaching the mask wearer. However, wearing a mask provides a level of source control for spreading the virus to others through respiratory droplets. Several studies cited by the CDC and WHO show that community usage slows the transmission of the virus. And that is an important public health goal--to slow the transmission while preventive measures, such as vaccines, can be developed and deployed on a large scale, while treatments can be improved for people with severe symptoms, and so that hospital capacity doesn't get overwhelmed and healthcare workers become so fatigued that mistakes go way up.

I think that people who say, "Masks don't even protect me so I'm not gonna wear one" are selfish and myopic. Call me judgmental, but I have been dealing with a--holes for three months who intentionally choose to harm other people's children by refusing to follow public health orders.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on November 26, 2020, 11:30:20 pm
The WHO is now telling doctors not to prescribe remdesivir, the only drug approved for COVID by the FDA.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on December 02, 2020, 02:27:30 pm
I anticipate receiving a Covid vaccine between Dec 15th and 31st. Barring any major safety concerns brought forward in the current review period I will be first in line.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on December 02, 2020, 03:32:11 pm
Hey, Jason, do you know if you're getting the Pfizer or the Moderna vaccine? Not that it matters. I'm just wondering which company seems to be managing the delivery logistics better.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on December 02, 2020, 10:10:46 pm
I hope Pfizer, as that is up for approval on Dec 10, but Moderna's not until 1 week later. I have not heard any delivery or administration logistics from our hospital system. The hospital system is big enough I am sure they are working on it. But likely will not provide details until they have concrete details.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on December 09, 2020, 02:03:51 pm
Our hospital sent out a preliminary distribution logistics email today, as well as a sign-up for who would be interested in receiving the vaccine (which I signed up for). They say they have been planning for distribution for months. My main hospital will be one of their main distribution sites. The vaccine will NOT be mandatory for hospital employees, which makes sense, as this is an emergency use authorization. In their email they say they anticipate administering the vaccine by late December. But they also say that they will be one of the first hospital systems to receive it. My realistic timeline is before Christmas, with an optimistic hope before the end of next week.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on December 11, 2020, 07:40:33 pm
December 21st is when they plan on administering the vaccine. OR staff is considered 1st tier of 4 tiers in the early group.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: nitasmile on December 15, 2020, 12:06:11 am
My sis who is an MD texted me today that she will get the vaccine 12/24..so happy for her. Her NP coworker died of the virus. :(  I have been worried about my sister and so am overjoyed she will get it!
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on December 16, 2020, 07:04:35 pm
Swiss Policy Research: Are face masks effective? The evidence.
 https://swprs.org/face-masks-evidence/ (https://swprs.org/face-masks-evidence/)

All the studies they mention are linked.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on December 16, 2020, 08:00:49 pm
The science behind how face masks prevent coronavirus transmission. The evidence.
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent (https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent)

All the studies mentioned are linked.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on December 17, 2020, 02:08:04 pm
I appreciate so much we live in a society where we can read the scientific studies ourselves and make our own decisions.  I also appreciate the fact that science is never stagnant but always challenged, and because of those challenges our knowledge and understanding increases. As soon as someone says ‘the science is settled’, we know that it is no longer scientific but dogma.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on December 18, 2020, 10:33:39 pm
Vaccine appointment Saturday, December 19, at 0915 AM. After the shot they want to watch us for 30 minutes in case of allergic reaction.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on December 19, 2020, 07:02:12 pm
Got it. 6 hours later and mild tenderness if I push on it.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on December 19, 2020, 07:14:23 pm
Glad to hear you had it, Jason. Stay well. 
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on December 19, 2020, 09:00:16 pm
Got it. 6 hours later and mild tenderness if I push on it.
Do you think that's the protein or the carrier? The reason I ask is that when I got a lot of vaccines in the military, I usually developed localized muscle soreness. The flight doc always told me it was the carrier and not the affective ingredient. Also, the Pfizer vaccine has a follow-up, right?
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: LMAshton on December 20, 2020, 03:58:01 pm
The Pfizer vaccine shouldn't be taken - at least not yet - by anyone with a history of severe allergic reactions, so it's out for me, at least for now. I'm waiting for more information on the Moderna vaccine to see if it's more likely to be safe for me. So I wait and see.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on December 20, 2020, 09:53:08 pm
I am not sure of what causes the sore muscles. 12 hours after the shot I had a noticeably achy muscle. Noticeable to me, but not to my children, who still wanted shoulder rides, which they got.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on January 09, 2021, 08:16:26 pm
I got the second vaccine 24 hours ago. I got a mildly sore shoulder again, though not as bad as the first time, which wasn't too bad. I can again sort of imagine that my immune system is doing something, but no fevers, chills, or anything like that. I still got on the elliptical for 60 minutes. And I am working overnight, again.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jen on January 09, 2021, 09:41:03 pm
I'm scheduled for my first shot Tuesday.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Sparky on January 19, 2021, 04:13:47 pm
A wonderful man who was our Bishop passed away last night due to Covid. He and his wife had moved away from the ward to be closer to his children. It was such a loss to have him move, but I am so glad now that he did because his wife will have their children to comfort them, and if she were still here, it wouldn't be as comforting for her. All of their children were able to be with him when he took his last breath. Small blessings.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on January 20, 2021, 12:20:13 pm
Vaccinations have moved to the next phase in Washington state. I am trying to convince my dad to get the vaccine. He is concerned it will be too severe of a reaction for an older person.

I am pleased with the tier system developed here, which focuses on age and comorbidities. This list will do the most good. Special interest groups (teachers) are trying to use their political influence to have young healthy teachers who work with young, healthy, low risk students  jump in front of the higher risk groups in front of them. Political manipulation was always going to be a threat whenever a 'death panel' was convened. So far the governor has held strong, which has surprised me. This is a chance for him to show that science, not politics, can actually guide his response.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on January 20, 2021, 12:36:18 pm
I'm sorry, Sparky, & grateful that the family was all there together for their farewells. Someone I know, not a family member but someone I was fond of, passed away a few days ago, so I'm feeling what you're feeling.

God bless all of us, anywhere in the world, who are feeling the impacts of this worldwide disaster.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: mirkwood on January 21, 2021, 11:48:31 am
Tomorrow.  Tomorrow is day 10 with no symptoms for any of us in my home.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: pnr on January 21, 2021, 05:16:52 pm
I don't know if your mother is LDS, Jason.  But if she is, yesterday President Nelson told members to get vaccinated (absent some medical reason not to).  That should make it easier.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on January 22, 2021, 09:38:26 pm
They saw the pictures all over Facebook of President Nelson and the first presidency getting the vaccine. I also told my dad that I didn't want him to suffocate for 2 weeks before dying, that it wasn't a pleasant way to die. The next day he asked me to try and get an appointment for him.

Sadly, our governor in Washington succumbed to political pressure from the teacher's union and is allowing young, healthy teachers to move up in the tier system ahead of their original place and are now in competition with people that are at risk of serious death or injury, or work with people who are at serious death or injury. There are currently no appointments available for anyone to get the vaccine, so my parents have to keep checking every day. This is going to make the limited supplies and distribution resources much worse.

As anyone who has had doubts about the fairness of the so called "death panels" (committees tasked with triaging and allocating scarce resources), in the first time I have seen this on a national or statewide scale, your doubts are justified. Political pressure will influence who gets scarce resources, limiting the influence of science, data, and public health.

We will just need to come to terms remember that this is how the world works. Just as I am coming to terms with the incoming authoritarian regimes.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on January 22, 2021, 11:36:24 pm
Having been in public education for 15 years, my observation is that a minority of teachers are young and healthy. The majority of teachers have some kind of comorbidity that places them at higher risk.

If teachers won't go back to teaching in person full time because they're scared of the Coronavirus, then kids can't go to school and have to learn online. If younger kids can't go to school, then somebody has to watch them. Maybe that's a parent who can't work because they have to stay home with their kids. Maybe it's a childcare provider, and that money comes out of the family's budget. Maybe it's grandparents, who are in the high risk category. It's primarily an economic argument. Like it or not, public schools provide a "state-funded daycare" function for a lot of families, so that they can work. In Salt Lake City, parents have launched a class-action lawsuit against the school district to get their kids back to in-person school full time. 

I'm not saying that I agree with the rationale for teachers getting to jump ahead in the vaccination line. I'm saying that it's a much more complex issue than teachers unions getting preferential treatment. In Utah, where there are no teachers unions, the push for teachers getting vaccinated as soon as possible is coming from parents and from our very Republican/conservative elected officials.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on January 23, 2021, 03:24:27 pm
There are many places where the vaccines could do some good. The 'death panel' committee's job was to weigh the different outcomes, especially with regard to death, and make a list of whose needs were highest. Far and away, age is the biggest risk factor for death with Covid. Followed by those with multiple co-morbidities, especially diabetes, smoking, and obesity. Higher risk teachers and multigenerational households were already in earlier tiers on the vaccine roll out list. This political change simply put the young and healthier teachers up in line.

There is no doubt that shutting down the schools has had a huge impact on people's financial lives. The original Coronavirus response was based on the plan written for influenza, which had a 15 day shut down as the final option, with most of its time spent on how to minimize the impact on adults and childcare. In retrospect, as the Coronavirus has behaved differently than the influenza virus, in that it has hardly any impact on children, shutting down the schools was likely the wrong decision.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on January 23, 2021, 08:53:44 pm
shutting down the schools was likely the wrong decision.
I understand that children can spread the virus even if they don't have symptoms. And even though children-to-children spread is super low, children can take the virus home and spread it to grownups who are at higher risk. That said, here's my one data point. When school began in August, my school offered two instructional programs: Students could attend full-time in person, or students could attend full-time online. About a fourth of our student population chose online. Through the first semester, the amount of positive cases with our online students was five times higher than in-person students, and that's with only one-fourth of the population. My conclusion is that students in school followed strict protocols which included face coverings, social distancing, small cohort groups, frequent sanitizing, good ventilation, outdoors as much as possible, etc. Kids at home likely didn't take the same precautions. The data for my particular school showed that kids were safer in school.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on January 24, 2021, 12:40:40 am
Very interesting comparison. My Kindergarten aged daughter thrives with the structure from formal school. On occasion she comes home with a new bit of knowledge or skill that she 'learned at school'. I had been trying to teach her that skill or bit of knowledge for weeks, yet one day at school with her well trained teacher and she internalizes it. I think she responds well to a formalized authority figure, like a teacher.

That same formal process would translate into better habits for social distancing and hand sanitation.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: cook on January 24, 2021, 06:05:47 am
I saw at least one facebook post about the prophet getting the vaccine. I was quite surprised of the commentary -how his example and the statement did not mean that people really should consider taking the vaccine. How the prophet actually meant that everyone should seriously pray about taking it and he only took it because he is so old...
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on January 24, 2021, 07:54:10 pm
People will always take what prophets say and make it palatable for themselves.

Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on January 24, 2021, 08:15:52 pm
A relatively local stake president shared the post of the prophet getting the vaccine to his stake's facebook page, and urged the members to follow the prophet and get the vaccine as soon as possible.
The post was met with such vitriol and hate and contention that he deleted it.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on January 24, 2021, 09:40:52 pm
A relatively local stake president shared the post of the prophet getting the vaccine to his stake's facebook page, and urged the members to follow the prophet and get the vaccine as soon as possible.
The post was met with such vitriol and hate and contention that he deleted it.

I double-dare them to write to President Nelson & say the same things.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: pnr on January 24, 2021, 10:00:00 pm
Some members are pretty thoroughly entrenched in the conspiracy theories.   And others think because they haven't gotten sick yet and none of their regular contacts have, that they needn't worry about the virus risks.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on January 25, 2021, 11:49:22 am
Merck ends its COVID19 vaccine program
 https://www.foxbusiness.com/healthcare/merck-ends-covid-19-vaccine-program-cites-inferior-immune-responses (https://www.foxbusiness.com/healthcare/merck-ends-covid-19-vaccine-program-cites-inferior-immune-responses)
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jana at Jade House on January 25, 2021, 03:07:53 pm
I guess I am  still young enough to be shocked. Our sustained prophet? a world known and respected doctor?  yikes. the world is worse than I thought.
My country has turned into idiots. 

The lockdown here  is not working as planned.  Now we have a 2100 curfew with reasonable exceptions. 
Several locations erupted into riots, cars burned, looting, and can you feature this... a hospital came under attack and  a testing centre got burnt.
THIS is staid, practical, stoic, NETHERLANDS.  I am flabbergasted.  The PM is livid. The mayors are out for blood.
The aforesaid hospital has armed security now, and the police are out in force on  horses, scooter, and bicycles because many city centres are pedestrian and cars do not do well.

On the other hand dismayed distraught citizens were out voluntarily cleaning up the mess today.
Attacking a hospital when our medical  folk are so overwhelmed and traumatized. incredible.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on January 25, 2021, 05:09:57 pm
I’m sorry to hear that, Jana. 
Satan seems to be loosened and is spreading anger and hatred everywhere. There is so much of it, it doesn’t surprise me when I read of things happening as you described in stoic Netherlands and when members of the church erupt in it, as Dyany described. We are human and unless we watch ourselves carefully, it is easy to get caught up in the anger. So easy, especially if we think we are righteousness in our emotions.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on January 25, 2021, 05:13:00 pm
“ Israel sees 60% drop in hospitalizations for age 60-plus 3 weeks after 1st shot”

 https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-sees-60-drop-in-hospitalizations-for-over-60s-in-weeks-after-vaccination/?fbclid=IwAR2LSNP3RsDx1ePajDP3MH0hExm4URPk_vDLjWkBUifaVsNT1xwQd1MX9WY (https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-sees-60-drop-in-hospitalizations-for-over-60s-in-weeks-after-vaccination/?fbclid=IwAR2LSNP3RsDx1ePajDP3MH0hExm4URPk_vDLjWkBUifaVsNT1xwQd1MX9WY)
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Sparky on January 25, 2021, 06:14:57 pm
Jana, I'm confused by your post. Are you upset that the prophet got the vaccine? For some reason I thought you were for the vaccine. <shrug>
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Hobbes on January 25, 2021, 06:20:31 pm
I'm pretty sure she's upset at people's response to the prophet.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: nitasmile on January 25, 2021, 09:59:05 pm
Dyanny,  how terrible that those people got thr stake president to remove his post..so tired of those forces winning! :(
I have a friend who posted a virtual event about racism, something usually at the visitors center,  and someone complaining about politics got it removed < friend deleted her post> !
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on January 25, 2021, 10:29:13 pm
I'm scheduled to get my vaccine on Wednesday afternoon. I tried for Friday, but the only thing available was in Salt Lake City, which is 70 miles away. Wednesday's appointment is much closer. I guess I'll take Thursday off work, if needed. It's the Moderna vaccine, so I'll have the second shot 28 days later.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Hobbes on January 25, 2021, 11:28:00 pm
Dyanny,  how terrible that those people got thr stake president to remove his post..so tired of those forces winning! :(
I have a friend who posted a virtual event about racism, something usually at the visitors center,  and someone complaining about politics got it removed < friend deleted her post> !

Really telling on yourself when you think people standing against racism is a political attack on you.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on January 26, 2021, 12:39:02 am
I guess some of these folks will not be raising their hands the next time they are asked to sustain the Prophet & local leaders, eh?  :(

My health provider is Kaiser, & in our area, priority is being given to health care workers & age 75+. I'm not in one one of those groups. Being 60+, my turn will eventually come up, & depending on when that happens & what our overall conditions are like, I may wait a few weeks before scheduling. There will be someone who needs it more. I'm in good health, don't have an outside job, & unlike too many folks even in "shutdown California," I'm being strictly scrupulous about all the precautions. So I'm at pretty low risk.

People need to keep in mind that just because they've been vaccinated doesn't guarantee they are totally immune from picking up the virus, getting sick, or unknowingly sharing it with others.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on January 26, 2021, 01:59:51 am
I have been trying to help my parents get scheduled. They are in high risk groups and are currently scheduled way out in late March. I check frequently, and every time I find that multiple time slots have opened up, they are filled before I can finish clicking on it. It seems like a similar experience trying to buy concert tickets when a bot is gobbling them up before anyone else can get them. Except there isn't a bot doing this. People really want the vaccine, and the availability really is limited.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jana at Jade House on January 26, 2021, 07:48:50 am
Sparky, rest assured that I am absolutely flabbergasted at people, members, being totally negative about President Doctor Nelson's example and statement.  For crying out loud.  And the misinformation! Sorry I was too cryptic. 

Some people are pigs.  That is my opinion.   My country has demonstrated their piggishness last weekend.

I cannot wait to have the vaccine and get my life back.

On top of our Boy being driven nearly to suicide and the sharp rise in depression,  and so many deaths, and the cratering world economy,  etc,etc,etc, the wonderful example of President Nelson should have been a beacon of hope and trust. 
It was for me.  There might be an end to this tunnel.

PS Boy could use more than Mama prayers, if you all can manage it.

Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on January 26, 2021, 09:00:52 am
every time I find that multiple time slots have opened up, they are filled before I can finish clicking on it.

That's exactly what my experience has been. Every Monday at 8:00 p.m., the state emails the appointment schedule for the upcoming week, based on vaccine availability. For the last two weeks, every appointment slot has been filled within three minutes. I sat at my computer last night starting at 7:45 and clicked the email refresh every three seconds. When the schedule appeared, it was already half filled. I immediately forwarded it to my staff, then I registered. Every slot was filled within five minutes.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on January 26, 2021, 02:59:42 pm
Covid-19 immunity likely lasts for years  -  MIT Technology Review

 https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.technologyreview.com/2021/01/06/1015822/covid-19-immunity-likely-lasts-for-years/amp/ (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.technologyreview.com/2021/01/06/1015822/covid-19-immunity-likely-lasts-for-years/amp/)
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on January 26, 2021, 03:28:40 pm
One of the advantages of living in COVID-denying Idaho is that it wasn't that hard to schedule my vaccine at all.  ::)
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on January 26, 2021, 07:56:22 pm
I heard on the news this morning that the South Africa strain and the Brazil strain might be more resistant to the vaccine, and that booster shots may be necessary in the future for the new strains.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on January 26, 2021, 09:34:38 pm
I spent far too many hours last night reading the comments section on the Salt Lake Tribune about President Nelson, as well as President Nelson's Facebook page and a portion of the 13,000 comments on his post.

Those commenters on the Salt Lake Tribune cannot be pleased with anything the church does. They hate that the poor sheeple of the church need to be told by their cult leader to take a vaccine.

There were far more negative comments on his Facebook page than I thought would be there. The anti-vaccination delusion is very high among people. They are convinced that they have inside knowledge. They are convinced that big pharma is simply covering up their evidence. Doctors were trained by big pharma, so do not believe doctors. Any scientific articles that contradict them are dismissed because it is the product of big pharma. All bad things that happened coincidentally around the time of a vaccine (within a few months) were directly caused by the vaccine.

They have also convinced themselves that when President Nelson urges everyone to get a vaccine that he is not speaking as a prophet, but as a misguided, fallible man. Therefore they are under no obligation to follow that counsel, as they have prayed and decided that they do not need it.

Many of them believe that all that is needed to cure all diseases is faith and prayer.

There is a lot of faulty information about medical science and how the body works.

Many of them seem to adhere as closely to the religion of anti-vaccination as they do to their own religion. In fact, it seems they have merged the two things religions. Their faith in the church is intertwined with their faith in anti-vaccination. They are one and the same. And an attack on their anti-vaccination dogma seems to be an attack on all of their religious beliefs. There is no convincing them with any amount of evidence, as their evidence is more solid and reliable, and already agrees with them.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on January 26, 2021, 11:30:02 pm
Survey Finds 15% of US Healthcare Workers Refuse to Take Covid-19 Vaccine -  Contagion Live
https://www.contagionlive.com/view/survey-finds-15-of-us-healthcare-workers-refuse-to-take-covid-19-vaccine (https://www.contagionlive.com/view/survey-finds-15-of-us-healthcare-workers-refuse-to-take-covid-19-vaccine)

What Dyany described and what Jason read through is extremely sad and disappointing. We expect more from fellow members. We expect them to show respect for and to our prophet.
 
But unlike most of you, I understand their hesitancy. The US has a history of cruel medical experiments performed on unsuspecting citizens. Dr. Fauci has already admitted lying about the pandemic. It may have been a 'small' lie, but once they put a lie out there, people wonder what else they have lied about. Actually, there have been quite a few lies told to the public during this pandemic. I think that if they want people who believe in 'unfounded conspiracy theories' to take the vaccine, they need to start with complete honesty.

Am I hesitant? Absolutely. Over the past 40 years since I've been an adult, I have seen miracle drug after miracle drug that have serious side effects that were never noticed during the 10 years of patient trials. This vaccine was put out to the public in less than a year of knowledge of the disease. I do realize that these vaccines were built 'on the shoulders' of vaccine studies for earlier strains of COVID.

When I read about President Nelson getting a COVID shot. I took that as encouragement for members of the Church who may be hesitant. I didn't take it as a commandment. I assumed, that like everything else, we are to study it out, pray and make our own decisions.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Taalcon on January 26, 2021, 11:41:54 pm
I wonder how many joined in on the Fast, but when the Prophet essentially says, 'This is the results of what you fasted for,' they're like, nah. Reminds me of something about calling Evil that which is Good.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: AndrewR on January 27, 2021, 02:51:00 am
Many of them believe that all that is needed to cure all diseases is faith and prayer.

If that were true there would be a lot more cancer survivors. Alas God's will also plays a part. And our being accepting of that does too.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on January 27, 2021, 09:25:09 am
Quote
I wonder how many joined in on the Fast, but when the Prophet essentially says, 'This is the results of what you fasted for,' they're like, nah. Reminds me of something about calling Evil that which is Good.

It certainly would not be the first time miracles aren't recognized or appreciated. But equating not trusting the vaccinations to "calling Evil that which is Good" is a bit of a stretch.

Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Taalcon on January 27, 2021, 11:20:39 am
Quote
But equating not trusting the vaccinations to "calling Evil that which is Good" is a bit of a stretch.

Perhaps you haven't seen some of the same comments or shared facebook posts that I have. There are MANY within the Church who are convinced the vaccine is a combination of an Active Evil Plot, and/or made up of "Chopped Up Baby Parts" (https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/you-asked-we-answered-do-the-covid-19-vaccines-contain-aborted-fetal-cells).

You're right - being cautious of a shot isn't 'calling Evil that which is good' - but a large, large volume of the critical posts go FAR beyond that. And this is what I'm referencing.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on January 27, 2021, 12:27:43 pm
You are right. I have not read comments such as you describe.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: LMAshton on January 27, 2021, 01:14:14 pm
Palmon, unfortunately, Taalcon is not exaggerating. I've seen more than I would like of that kind of comment.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jana at Jade House on January 27, 2021, 03:12:24 pm
Even our dear atheist in residence is appalled at the pushback against President Nelson. 

We are not encouraging him to get baptised. Years ago he observed we have our share of fringe folk in our ranks.

But this virus seems to have given the strident anti establishment folk a megaphone.

And of course, the antiscience certainly is repellent.

But even Andries shows more respect to the President than some members. 

Oh these end times are disheartening.

Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on January 27, 2021, 08:36:12 pm
Jana, I was listening to the news this morning about the curfews and visiting/travel restrictions in the Netherlands to slow the spread of Coronavirus, and about the riots which broke out in response--rioters attacking police officers and looting buildings. Hard to believe it's happening in usually-tranquil Netherlands. I hope you and your loved ones are safe and far removed from the violence.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jana at Jade House on January 27, 2021, 09:02:22 pm
yes we are safe thanks for concern.  it's just hooligans.  the court will take care of them.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on January 27, 2021, 11:21:51 pm
If a prophet calls the vaccine a literal godsend that he has prayed for, and others call it evil, that sounds like the definition of calling evil good and good evil.

He urges church members, employees, and missionaries to be immunized when it becomes available. Individuals are responsible for their own decisions, as the church is not your baby-sitter. In making the determination to be vaccinated or not, the church recommends consulting with competent medical professionals about personal circumstances and need. This is important, because while the benefits outweigh the risks for most people, there are those for whom the risks outweigh the benefits. Such as those with severe allergic reactions to previous vaccines. And a large subset, pregnant women and those who might become pregnant. Studies have not been done to determine if there are any adverse effects to fertility. It will likely prove to be safe, but we do not yet know that. But for those who do not fall into one of those subsets who should abstain for now, their competent medical professional will likely recommend getting the vaccine.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on January 27, 2021, 11:45:30 pm
I got the first shot (Moderna) this afternoon. After 4 hours, I'm starting to develop some pain in my shoulder and a low-grade fever. Time to take a couple of Tylenol and head to bed.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: nitasmile on January 28, 2021, 02:31:32 pm
I got my second Moderna shot on Tuesday..was harder for me..woke up next day more tired, headache, with nausea and lots of chills. Left work early and slept for about 15 hours! But now feel fairly good..headache gone though still tired.
And the pain in my arm left, just tender. I feel the arm pain with the first lasted longer but more intense with the second.
Happy to be done! Light at the end of the tunnel!!
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: curlybat on January 28, 2021, 07:50:33 pm
You are right. I have not read comments such as you describe.

Nor would I. I try to avoid reading comments on most such posts these days. There is so little civility and respect for others.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: curlybat on January 28, 2021, 07:57:29 pm
I'm with you on this. I'm not against getting one of the available vaccines but I'm not rushing to get the vaccine and will be fine "waiting in back of the line".  I wouldn't be all that surprised to find out I already had COVID. One coworker had it and it several who have come into where I work have had it at some time.

Survey Finds 15% of US Healthcare Workers Refuse to Take Covid-19 Vaccine -  Contagion Live
https://www.contagionlive.com/view/survey-finds-15-of-us-healthcare-workers-refuse-to-take-covid-19-vaccine (https://www.contagionlive.com/view/survey-finds-15-of-us-healthcare-workers-refuse-to-take-covid-19-vaccine)

What Dyany described and what Jason read through is extremely sad and disappointing. We expect more from fellow members. We expect them to show respect for and to our prophet.
 
But unlike most of you, I understand their hesitancy. The US has a history of cruel medical experiments performed on unsuspecting citizens. Dr. Fauci has already admitted lying about the pandemic. It may have been a 'small' lie, but once they put a lie out there, people wonder what else they have lied about. Actually, there have been quite a few lies told to the public during this pandemic. I think that if they want people who believe in 'unfounded conspiracy theories' to take the vaccine, they need to start with complete honesty.

Am I hesitant? Absolutely. Over the past 40 years since I've been an adult, I have seen miracle drug after miracle drug that have serious side effects that were never noticed during the 10 years of patient trials. This vaccine was put out to the public in less than a year of knowledge of the disease. I do realize that these vaccines were built 'on the shoulders' of vaccine studies for earlier strains of COVID.

When I read about President Nelson getting a COVID shot. I took that as encouragement for members of the Church who may be hesitant. I didn't take it as a commandment. I assumed, that like everything else, we are to study it out, pray and make our own decisions.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on January 28, 2021, 09:20:47 pm
I woke up really tired this morning after a solid 8 hours of sleep (I usually get 7.) I went to work, and by lunchtime I was feeling much better. I'm sure the Dr. Pepper helped a little ;)
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Scruffydog on January 29, 2021, 01:24:24 pm
My understanding of the development of the vaccine is that it is not true that it has been developed unsafely. It is based on existing vaccines for related SARS vaccines, and it has been adapted from existing vaccines. That meant that a lot of the work had already been done, not that corners have been cut. I am really looking forward to getting the vaccine, but not going to be getting it any time soon because I am apparently too healthy. Who knew?

As far as the President Nelson issue is concerned, he is clearly not telling us a commandment for God. However, if someone chooses not to accept his counsel on this, when he has both the Spirit and his decades of professional experience, I do wonder when that person will ever accept his counsel.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on January 29, 2021, 05:00:04 pm
Survey from Brookings: "Partisan affiliation is often the strongest single predictor of behavior and attitudes about COVID-19, even more powerful than local infection rates or demographic characteristics, such as age and health status, as we show in our new paper, 'The Real Cost of Political Polarization: Evidence from the COVID-19 Pandemic.' Accordingly, a state’s partisan orientation also explains its public health policies..."

Partisan affiliation. Not science.

Why has yelling become more important than knowing?

Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on January 29, 2021, 05:00:34 pm
The Phizer and Moderna vaccines are using "new" mRNA technology.   From Louis Pasteur until recently, they'd inject people with weakened or dead virus, to trigger the immune response.   mRNA vaccines don't actually have any COVID in them.  Instead, they use a synthesized RNA string.  It's not a fake virus, it's not even a fake part of the spike protein that our cells grab.  It's a faked "set of instructions" that our cells accept to make copies of the virus.  In this case, the cells start making copies of the synthetic RNA string, and that triggers the immune response.

The technology has been in development, and tested safely with humans, for several decades.   But this is the first time it's been deployed globally for a full scale vaccination effort.   Amazing stuff. 

Back in August, I signed up for a phase 3 trial, and got two shots. This week, I went in and they officially “unblinded” me, confirming that I got the actual vaccine, and not the placebo.  I've spent the last 6 months with occasional visits for a blood draw, and twice-weekly health reporting, to see if I grew tumors or died or caught autism or got improved cell phone service, or whatever.    I and tens of thousands of other folks in these trials, have shown that you get the vaccine, you pretty much don't get COVID.  (This is where the 95+% effective number comes from.)  Up next is 4 years of more of the same, to confirm how long the vaccine is effective, and provide data for long-term health effects.

I’m glad I signed up to be a guinea pig. I’m glad the vaccine is turning out to be effective.  I have high hopes for 2021, I believe our vaccinated old people will stop dying this winter, our high-risk and teachers will stop catching it this spring, and the whole thing can just fade from our public discourse by the end of summer.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on January 29, 2021, 07:55:26 pm
thank you, NT, for volunteering to be part of the trial. Millions will benefit. FWIW I do hope you get improved cell phone service ;)
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Patty Rain on February 04, 2021, 12:27:42 am
I guess some of these folks will not be raising their hands the next time they are asked to sustain the Prophet & local leaders, eh?  :(

My health provider is Kaiser, & in our area, priority is being given to health care workers & age 75+. I'm not in one one of those groups. Being 60+, my turn will eventually come up, & depending on when that happens & what our overall conditions are like, I may wait a few weeks before scheduling. There will be someone who needs it more. I'm in good health, don't have an outside job, & unlike too many folks even in "shutdown California," I'm being strictly scrupulous about all the precautions. So I'm at pretty low risk.

People need to keep in mind that just because they've been vaccinated doesn't guarantee they are totally immune from picking up the virus, getting sick, or unknowingly sharing it with others.

This is why we will still be doing at home church for the foreseeable future after we get the vaccine.  I am just too high risk and too many people around here don't care about distancing etc.  Once more people are vaccinated (besides us) I will feel more comfortable going out.

I am excited for my daughter though.  She has her first shot because of work.  Emotionally/socially she is really struggling as she is distancing far more than her peers because she recognizes the danger for us.  Once she has had both shots we will encourage her to start attending her singles ward again.  She really needs it.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on February 04, 2021, 08:47:36 pm
In addition to the vaccination appointments with the two local hospital systems (which are booked out through late March), our county has been arranging drive through vaccination sites. The demand is so strong that the appointments for these have been filling up within minutes of opening. Registration for two more sites opened today at 9 AM. By 9:20 they were all full.

But I refreshed the page right at 09:00 and got one for my dad! Saturday about 20 minutes from his house. He is 75 with a few health issues. Now I just need to convince him to do it. I had convinced him once, but he keeps reading about the side effects and is wavering. He is someone who needs a little encouragement and then back off so that he can make up his own mind. He will eventually come around, but he is not someone I can force to do anything.

A vaccine news article was posted on Facebook recently from the Daily Wire, which is a Ben Shapiro linked news group. Ben Shapiro is conservative and is very pro-vaccine, but some of his followers are not. Those that dislike vaccines are very vocal. So I posted a response to the news article on Facebook, and thus began my biggest foray into social media debates. 268 replies. Some just wanted to call me names. I had a lot of snarky things I wanted to say, but that wouldn't have been productive. It was very draining, but I think I might have done some good. Some were interested in hearing what I had to say. For those that wanted to actually discuss something I tried to be reasonable. I looked up the information they posted. I learned a lot. I came away with a greater respect for these vaccines, and know a little bit more about the subgroups that should avoid them.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on February 04, 2021, 10:09:07 pm
And the sub-groups are?
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on February 04, 2021, 11:17:22 pm
Subgroups who should avoid this vaccine:
Those with severe allergic reactions, as they are more prone to severe allergic reactions. Or known allergic reactions to components of the vaccine.

Pregnant women, or women seeking to become pregnant, as we do not have data on how this might affect them. Likely safe, but currently unknown.

Possibly the extremely frail elderly, such as those in nursing homes on hospice. Think those with severe heart failure, dementia, COPD, kidney failure, or combinations thereof. Those that are barely compensating to stay alive. Those who have a 50% chance of dying this year.

Those actively sick with Covid should probably wait. Those who have recently taken a Covid antibody therapy.

People under age 16 for Pfizer and 18 for Moderna, as they haven't been tested, yet.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: cook on February 04, 2021, 11:35:46 pm
Thanks Jason for the list.

I think all that is reasonable. What I find hard is that many people don't put it that way but in a way "it is dangerous for these groups of people".  We don't need that either. There are plenty of children with certain conditions to whom covid most likely would be fatal. I don't like people condemning them for taking the vaccine.

Here the governmental health office recommends that pregnant women don't take it and says that children cannot yet take it, for the reasons Jason stated.

Here we have only had vaccines so far for the health care personnel and the old people in old people's homes and very old at home. My dad got the first shot. He has combined dementia/alzheimers, kidney failure (has had it for years, heart issues (nothing serious currently, once had a heart attack) and other issues. He's still  alive - much to his sadness, he would like to pass on to the next stage. He turns 89 this month.

Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on February 05, 2021, 01:42:11 am
My caution for the extremely frail elderly comes from some frail, nursing home patients in Norway dying within a week or two after receiving the vaccine. 20%-30% of nursing home patients die each year, so were they going to die anyway? Or did the mild side effects push their bodies beyond their non-existent ability to compensate? It is hard to say. I would urge those who interact with extremely frail people to get vaccinated. The young and healthy get vaccinated not for themselves, but rather for those who cannot protect themselves.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: LMAshton on February 05, 2021, 08:31:52 am
Subgroups who should avoid this vaccine:
Those with severe allergic reactions, as they are more prone to severe allergic reactions. Or known allergic reactions to components of the vaccine.

This is me. I have no known allergies to the components of the vaccine, but I have a history of severe allergic reactions.

I still want the vaccine since I'm also high risk and I'd rather have the protection of the vaccine, but I'm waiting on more information to see if there's one vaccine or another that would be theoretically safer for me.

Having said that, I won't be in the pool for getting a vaccine for several more months anyway, so I have some time.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Patty Rain on February 05, 2021, 11:51:37 am
As far as I know, all of the vaccines are drive up here in Arizona, but we have the weather for them.  You drive around a maze in the parking lot going through the important questions, checking IDs, getting the shots, and at the end you wait 15 minutes after you got the shot to see if there are any series side effects. 
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on February 06, 2021, 10:51:26 pm
I took my dad (75 years old) to get the Moderna vaccine today. After some reluctance he decided to do it. He was quite pleased with the whole drive through process. It was very efficient. I took him home and stayed with him for 3 hours. No issues so far. Late tonight or tomorrow will be the biggest chance for side effects or complications. We will see.

I wonder if his experience will convince his brother to get the vaccine. His brother is a little deeper on the conspiracy side of vaccines.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on February 07, 2021, 12:19:02 pm
I was able to get my vaccine a little early (since I'm a community-based mental health worker) and fairly easily (since most of my state is far-right, anti-vaccine), but the first dose made me sick as a DOG. I don't think this would happen to everyone, and I skipped a lot of the common side-effects like headaches or even a sore arm. I just so happen to have a very scarred gut that did NOT like the vaccine and protested HARD for about 4 days straight.

I'm still getting the 2nd vaccine at my scheduled time if possible.

And I'm still glad I'm getting it.

Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on February 07, 2021, 12:25:31 pm
My sister and her husband had the same reaction as Dyany. They were sick for 5 days. The second shot was much easier, just sore arms.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on February 07, 2021, 12:49:44 pm
I just so happen to have a very scarred gut that did NOT like the vaccine and protested HARD for about 4 days straight.

I'm still getting the 2nd vaccine at my scheduled time if possible.

And I'm still glad I'm getting it.

Sorry you had such a bad reaction, Dyany. Kudos for still having a good attitude and for planning to get the second shot, even though the first was so miserable.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on February 07, 2021, 06:38:26 pm
I have a hypothesis that a percentage of those who are having rough reactions to the first vaccine dose might have had a previous, asymptomatic encounter with the virus, so that the first dose is acting more like a second dose.

Or it could just be their immune system.

------------------------

26 hours out from his first dose. and my dad has had no symptoms. No fever, chills, malaise. Not even a sore shoulder. It is going well.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jen on February 07, 2021, 09:37:49 pm
I have a hypothesis that a percentage of those who are having rough reactions to the first vaccine dose might have had a previous, asymptomatic encounter with the virus, so that the first dose is acting more like a second dose.

Or it could just be their immune system.



I've wondered about that. Early on, I had a strange illness that made one lung burn for a couple of weeks. Maybe fatigue too, but it's hard to say because I have narcolepsy and I'm always tired.

Anyway, I had more effects from the first vaccine than my coworkers, and the other 2 that had side effects had proven COVID last year. My second dose is on Wednesday and I'm curious to see how I do.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on February 08, 2021, 02:06:51 am
Could be either with me. I had a surgery at a craptastic local hospital literally 2 days before lockdown in mid-March and came down with something that had me sick as a dog for over a month.

But I also have a spectacularly messed up system, including immune system, gut scarring, inflammation issues, asthma, scarred lungs, etc.

I personally lean towards the bad reaction with my body more than the idea that I caught it in March. I have way too many of the high risk factors--including asthma, scarred lungs, diabetes, obesity, pre-existing gut issues, etc.--for me to have gotten off with almost none of the standard symptoms (nothing like bronchitis or worse, no loss of taste or smell, no gut issues, etc.) while still being REALLY sick, for it to be COVID, in my opinion. It was too early in the pandemic for there to be testing available in our area, so we'll never know for sure.

Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: AndrewR on February 08, 2021, 08:48:34 am
My daughter, twenty, only medical issue is an under-active thyroid, had no symptoms at all - she had the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine.

She had previously tested positive for the virus, but again with no symptoms.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on February 19, 2021, 07:33:48 pm
My doctor told me not to get either of the two vaccines out now in the US, but that Johnson & Johnson is releasing another in March.  Since it is using a different process, it should be fine.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jen on February 19, 2021, 08:18:27 pm
Second dose was kind of rough. Fever hit about 12 hours after the shot, and for 24 hours after that I had the worst body aches I can remember along with the fever and nausea. By 48 hours I felt pretty good, though.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on February 20, 2021, 11:46:02 am
"Leaked report shows Pfizer's vaccine is sharply cutting covid-19 infections in Israel"  -- technologyreview.com

https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/02/19/1019264/a-leaked-report-pfizers-vaccine-conquering-covid-19-in-its-largest-real-world-test/?fbclid=IwAR2z4XaeA1Ov6Td2d3f9fCWRzOd5d3c7IRfDv6RsxhyeXe15rT4kxVNyn58 (https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/02/19/1019264/a-leaked-report-pfizers-vaccine-conquering-covid-19-in-its-largest-real-world-test/?fbclid=IwAR2z4XaeA1Ov6Td2d3f9fCWRzOd5d3c7IRfDv6RsxhyeXe15rT4kxVNyn58)
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: curlybat on February 23, 2021, 07:53:40 pm
My doctor told me not to get either of the two vaccines out now in the US, but that Johnson & Johnson is releasing another in March.  Since it is using a different process, it should be fine.

You can read up what is different about this one here - https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/health/johnson-johnson-covid-19-vaccine.html

Interesting.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on February 23, 2021, 10:00:14 pm
Thank you, Curlybat, for the link.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on February 24, 2021, 05:24:29 pm
If you've had your COVID shots and are due for a mammogram, you need to wait until 4 weeks after the second shot. Apparently the shots are causing the lymph nodes to swell and the process becomes extremely painful. It's been determined that after 4 weeks, the nodes return to normal.
So I learned when I went in for my yearly mammogram today.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on February 24, 2021, 11:57:21 pm
Crud. Well, I just had my 2nd shot today and my mammogram is scheduled for next week, but it's been too dang hard to schedule a mammogram in this nightmare and I've had some tricky spots. Pain hasn't been one of my shot symptoms, so I'm hoping it won't hit me too bad, but if so, oh well. I've dealt with worse. It's not worth rescheduling again and another delay.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on February 25, 2021, 12:58:15 am
Call and make sure they will do it. Better than showing up and being told no.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on February 25, 2021, 09:16:02 am
I had my second shot yesterday afternoon. My chest, shoulders, and back ache this morning. Arms and legs less so. I feel really tired. I think I'll go for a walk later and see if some movement helps. Thankfully, no fever, chills, or headache. Yet.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on February 25, 2021, 09:24:19 am
Dyany, I hope your second shot wasn't as rough as the first.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on February 25, 2021, 03:02:57 pm
Last time it took a couple of days for the side effects to kick in, and it was 98% gastrointestinal.

Last night I had a little gut issues, and I'm a little bit achy, but so far so good.

Palmon, I told them when we were scheduling that it would be the week after my 2nd shot (I mentioned it because I was excited about being lower risk), and they didn't say anything about it being a problem.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on February 25, 2021, 03:41:07 pm
Because this is all new, they weren't aware, at first, that there was a problem. Then they found that the swollen lymph nodes look very much like cancer in the screening. I think it has only been in the last couple of weeks that they stopped doing the exam on women who recently had the shots. The lady that helped me said that they were trying really hard to contact everyone with upcoming appointments but weren't always successful.

I think my time slot was originally held by someone who just had the shot. I called on Tuesday afternoon and had an appointment Wednesday. According to the technician, most women are waiting a couple of months for an appointment.

COVID Vaccination Guidelines for Screening Mammograms/ Midstate Radiology Associates
[url]https://www.midstateradiology.com/blog/breast-imaging/covid-vaccination-mammograms//[url]
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on February 25, 2021, 03:49:57 pm
California is having trouble getting enough supplies for all, & we have stories of people abusing procedures that are meant to get vaccines to more vulnerable people early on. One was of residents of Marin County, an affluent suburb north of San Francisco, getting hold of registration codes meant for front-line workers in minority communities & boosting themselves to the head of the line for shots at the Oakland Coliseum. That system has been suspended because of the cheating.

A local radio station has a daily feature with experts on the whole range of pandemic topics: infectiousness, vaccines & trials, mortgage or rent relief, employment problems, you name it. I can't tune in every day, but there is always some useful info. A few days ago the guest was a professor of medical ethics, & the host asked about issues with deciding who among at-risk groups should have access earliest. And considering the probability of dying vs. the level of exposure a person may have, there are legitimate concerns. Seniors who get COVID are likelier to have a negative outcome (IOW, die), but may be better able to avoid daily public contact if they're not working. People in health care have far more exposure, but have professional equipment, knowledge, & ongoing training so they are better able to take effective precautions. Teachers are exposed to herds of people, school office personnel even more because they have contact with just about everyone in the school population. Young kids are less likely to catch or spread the virus, but what if they did, & took it to school & exposed a 65-yo staff member. And so on.

The doctor said he had recovered from COVID, & was delaying being vaccinated because as a health provider younger than 60, he is in a better position to avoid being exposed & to recover well. He was making an ethical decision to save his shot for someone who might need it more. I've been doing the same thing. I'm old enough to be in a "high-risk group" if I do get sick, but I'm retired & have been diligent about protecting myself & other people. I do go out, actually quite often, but because of my behavior, I don't think I'm high-risk for either getting sick or sharing cooties. Someone else needs the shot more. If it turns out to be one of those Marin County moneybags with a patio facing the Golden Gate Bridge who has to park the Beemer outside because the garage is full with their Porsche, Escalade, & vintage Vette, I can't help that, but I do hope some hardworking minimum-wage gardener or grocery clerk with a bunch of kids to support gets it.

Eventually I'll get myself on the schedule, but at the moment, I don't consider it the most urgent matter.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on February 25, 2021, 04:51:48 pm
I went back to bed for a few hours, then woke up shivering. I'm actually pretty happy about this. It tells me it's working. This is my normal reaction to a viral infection--tiredness, sore muscles, shivering, and more tiredness. Back to sleep for another few hours  :)
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on February 25, 2021, 04:58:27 pm
Dyany, good to hear thing aren't as drastic this time around.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on March 02, 2021, 12:16:49 am
FYI, the Covid pandemic is just about over.

Yes, the vaccines are that good.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on March 02, 2021, 12:53:34 am
Jason, may I ask where you draw that conclusion from?

What I have been seeing is that some cases are going down, but in many ways things are just plateauing, because new variants like the South African strain aren't touched by the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines, and they are far more contagious than the original. Combine that with the false sense of security and the growing ease in safeguards that people are implementing regarding the pandemic because of the vaccines in spite of guidelines to continue to mask/wash/distance, there is, from what I've heard, a very real fear among epidemiologists regarding another surge of the new variants.

Personally, my work is SLIGHTLY easing SOME restrictions, and I am actually going to start easing my personal restrictions (doing community-based mental health, I go on a case-by-case basis), but my work and state guidelines still supports telehealth, and we have to do screening before every in-person visit, and masking and cleaning before and after every transport. Which I will not slack on. Though I am now vaccinated, I don't wish to catch any variant. It's not death that scares me. It's that I've already experienced lifetime debilitation after illnesses that were supposed to be 'no big deal,' and I'd sooner shoot myself in the head than add to that.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on March 02, 2021, 09:43:58 am
The current strain of the virus is absolutely crushed by the vaccines. Transmission, mild disease, moderate disease, severe disease, and death.

The new variants that are more contagious are still signficantly stopped by the current vaccines in terms of severe disease and death, even transmission and mild diseases. Now that we know that the vaccines work it will be easy to create boosters if significant mutations arise in the future, which the current variants have not mutated enough to warrant that worry.

Worrying about unsafe behaviors due to a false sense of security was one of the biggest mistakes that was/is promoted by public health officials during this pandemic. They should instead focus on promoting harm reduction behaviors.

I do not typically post links, but here is a link to an Atlantic Magazine article that articulates why the vaccines are so good and what could have been done far better in terms of public health messaging, education and response.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/02/how-public-health-messaging-backfired/618147/?fbclid=IwAR3Anm5WD_GaKZ-7j30m4TtCm4o8SnMgYXAtsPbpSHMKkWC2kE5yrS0LMHI (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/02/how-public-health-messaging-backfired/618147/?fbclid=IwAR3Anm5WD_GaKZ-7j30m4TtCm4o8SnMgYXAtsPbpSHMKkWC2kE5yrS0LMHI)

For those that would rather watch a youtube video, Here is ZDoggMD talking about the same things. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52gI3CoMg1Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52gI3CoMg1Y)
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Taalcon on March 17, 2021, 02:01:36 pm
My wife and I got our first Pfizer shot today, and we're very excited. It's 4 hours later, and I don't have any real soreness, but my wife's arm is quite sore. No other side effects yet. We're just really happy, and grateful right now.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on March 17, 2021, 10:33:06 pm
I had my first dose of the Moderna vaccine a week ago. I didn't mention it, to see if I would have any after-effects, & I didn't. The injection spot was just a tiny bit tender for a day, but no real soreness, & I was able to use the arm regularly & do all the other things I would do if I hadn't had a medical procedure. My second dose is scheduled for 28 days from the first.

I'll still be on the cautious side for now, since I don't have full understanding of whether partly vaccinated people can be spreaders or still have a chance of getting COVID. No wild St. Paddy's Day revelry, but I do feel pretty hopeful now. It was exactly a year ago that the Bay Area took the radical step of shutting down & sheltering in place, which has gone through various changes & adjustments over the year. Overall, it is credited with the Bay Area having lower infection rates & lower death rates than all but 7 of the states in the U.S.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on March 18, 2021, 01:44:57 pm
My BiL was vaccinated late January. I don’t know which if the two, Moderns or Pfizer. About three weeks ago he was diagnosed with pulmonary embolisms. He was exhausted and it was getting harder and harder to go up the stairs in his house. He finally went to the doctor when going up the flight had him breathing like he had just run a marathon. Most likely, a coincidence, but still with the news of late, it does  give one pause. And we are extremely blessed that he didn’t throw a blood clot before he decided to get medical care.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on March 18, 2021, 03:36:42 pm
Lots of spare Astra Zeneca vaccine sitting around waiting for FDA approval, but it won't go to waste. Since it has been approved by Canada & Mexico, the U.S. will send some to them.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/u-s-to-send-4-million-doses-of-astrazeneca-vaccine-to-mexico-canada-in-loan-deal-official/ar-BB1eJ4BJ?ocid=msedgntp

A federal official said, "We only put the virus behind us if we're helping our global partners."

IOW, "America First" does not categorically mean "America Only," & we can't expect to succeed if we isolate ourselves & ignore the rest of the world.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on March 18, 2021, 06:02:39 pm
The Astra Zeneca vaccine has been recently banned in many parts of Europe and, I believe, Australia, due to a high incidence of serious side effects. So I wouldn't be so quick to applaud its use.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on March 18, 2021, 06:17:49 pm
America has been the hardest hit with the virus, so a policy of "at risk Americans first" actually makes sense this time around.

Thus far I think the benefits/risks for vaccinating children is not high enough, as children have such a statistically small chance of having bad outcomes from Covid, and a grade 3 or 4 fever from the vaccine starts to pose more risk than the virus for them.

In the last couple of days I have been asked to go up to the ICU or ER and intubate 3 people with Covid. They had difficult airways, so the ICU doctors wanted me to do it. These people I intubated were completely miserable. One could not tolerate laying on his back, so had been on his stomach for a week. He was still struggling to breath. He was not much older than me, and a year ago before my weight loss I would have had similar some similar obesity and pre-diabetes problems.

At risk people, over 60, obesity (even mild), and diabetes (even mild) should do what they can to get the vaccine as soon as they can.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on March 18, 2021, 09:10:34 pm
I listened to a report that the link between the AstraZeneca vaccine and blood clots is unproven and overhyped--that the risk of clots in vaccinated people is less than in the general population. The World Health Organization is strongly urging countries to restart their vaccination programs, as thousands of people are dying from COVID-19 each day.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: cook on March 19, 2021, 12:24:11 am
Dyany in most European countries they've had one blood clot which some suspect may be linked with the vaccine - and like Roper said, statistics don't support that. There are thousands a year getting it. If the vaccine would be the one responsible for it there should have been plenty of cases in the Uk, which there is not (my understanding is that none happened there).

So not many incidents of blood clots, no incidents of other serious  assumed side effects. A lot of rumours and opinions yes.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: cook on April 05, 2021, 05:46:16 am
I wonder how some people feel about the added/ changed things in the handbook:A new entry on vaccinations (38.7.13) reemphasizes direction the First Presidency has consistently given since at least 1978. “Vaccinations administered by competent medical professionals protect health and preserve life,” the handbook says. “Members of the Church are encouraged to safeguard themselves, their children, and their communities through vaccination.” (Also see this article from January 2021 about Church leaders receiving the COVID-19 vaccine.)
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Taalcon on April 05, 2021, 10:48:50 am
I get my second shot (Pfizer) on Wednesday! Very excited and grateful.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Scruffydog on April 06, 2021, 09:24:38 am
A bit late to the party, but as I understand it, there have been 7 cases of blood clots that might be linked to the AZ vaccine in Britain. That is in 31,000,000 vaccinations. That is a lower risk than for most vaccines, as far as I understand
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jana at Jade House on April 14, 2021, 09:38:54 am
I got an invitation and made my appointments. But we inquired and Boss is not included. So we are still at risk because ...students. Our lockdown is extended to end Aril and so is curfew.    They think everyone in Nederland will be jabbed by end June....
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Iggy on April 15, 2021, 10:47:34 pm
I got my second shot of Moderna this afternoon. My muscle just below the right shoulder is sore. Hubby is going to have to help me take my blouse off tonight and help me into my Jammies Top. Can't raise my right arm high enough AND not dislodge the FreeStyle Libra2 button on my left arm.

It was/is an absolutely beautiful day. High of 82, right now at 7:46 pm it is 60 degrees and NO wind. No birds either. What's up with that?? No birds chirping??
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on April 26, 2021, 06:28:09 pm
Quote
Why the World Should Worry About India
The world’s largest vaccine producer is struggling to overcome its latest COVID-19 surge—and that’s everyone’s problem.


https://apple.news/A0I-JrNtdRi2I3kP7LA9dKg (https://apple.news/A0I-JrNtdRi2I3kP7LA9dKg)
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on April 26, 2021, 11:46:52 pm
In the USA it has been humbling to be the worst of the worst when it comes to this infectious disease, as we have typically thought of infectious diseases as impacting poorer countries, like much of India. Not only humbling, it has been a mystery, because how could those poorer places without great healthcare resources and minimal effort do better than we could?

Maybe it turns out they cannot do better. The waves of infection just weren't hitting them as early as they hit us. It seems in the USA that the various peaks and troughs of the surges did not care about our mitigation efforts, lockdowns, or strictness on masking, except that now deaths are dramatically declining due to vaccinating the most vulnerable, the elderly.

One difficulty about where to distribute Covid vaccines is that there is a finite capacity on how much can be made at a time. The USA has had the most infections and most deaths, so for once it made sense for the USA to purchase a large share of the immediate vaccine supply in front of the emerging countries. But if the other parts of the world have no magic, but simply dodged the first year of infection due to dumb luck, then we really better ramp up the vaccine supply to get it out to the rest of the world, because they might get hit far harder than we did. If you thought coordinating vaccinations in the USA was hard, imagine doing this on a global scale.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Taalcon on April 27, 2021, 08:47:27 am
Meanwhile, last night, Tucker Carlson uses his influence to encourage his audience to call the police and Child Protective Services if they see kids outside with masks, and tell the authorities they are witnessing Child Abuse (https://www.thedailybeast.com/tucker-carlson-tells-fox-viewers-to-call-the-cops-if-they-see-kids-wearing-masks-outdoors?ref=home).

“Your response when you see children wearing masks as they play should be no different from your response to seeing someone beat a kid in Walmart. Call the police immediately. Contact Child Protective Services. Keep calling until someone arrives. What you’re looking at is abuse, it’s child abuse, and you are morally obligated to attempt to prevent it.”

Yes. Let's encourage your audience to weaponize and abuse the Police system. That will turn down the temperature.

Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on April 27, 2021, 10:18:42 am
A youtube video of flash mobs occurring across Europe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIQvsOja_30&t=266s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIQvsOja_30&t=266s)

A translation of the lyrics of the song they are singing:
Quote
We want to keep dancing again
See our thoughts embrace our bodies
Spend our lives on a grid of chords
Oh, no no no no no no
We want to keep dancing again
See our thoughts embrace our bodies
Spend our lives on a grid of chords

We are birds of passage
Never docile nor really wise
We don't pledge allegiance
At dawn in all circumstances
We come to break the silence

And when the evening on TV
The good king has spoken
Came to announce the sentence
We are irreverent
But always with elegance

We want to keep dancing again
See our thoughts embrace our bodies
Spend our lives on a grid of chords
Oh, no no no no no no
We want to keep dancing again
See our thoughts embrace our bodies
Spend our lives on a grid of chords

Auto-metro-work-conso
Self-attestation that we sign
Prescription absurdity
And woe to him who thinks
And woe to him who dances

Every authoritative measure
Every whiff of security
Sees our confidence fly away
They are so insistent
To confine our consciousness

We want to keep dancing again
See our thoughts embrace our bodies
Spend our lives on a grid of chords
Oh, no no no no no no
We want to keep dancing again
See our thoughts embrace our bodies
Spend our lives on a grid of chords

Let's not be impressionable
By all these unreasonable people
Fear sellers in abundance
Anguishing, to the point of indecency
Let's know how to keep them at a distance

For our mental health
Social and environmental
Our smiles, our intelligence
Let's not be without resistance
The instruments of their insanity

We want to keep dancing again
See our thoughts embrace our bodies
Spend our lives on a grid of chords
Oh, no no no no no no
We want to keep dancing again
See our thoughts embrace our bodies
Spend our lives on a grid of chords
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on April 27, 2021, 06:25:59 pm
Children wearing masks outside playing is pretty stupid, but not really child abuse.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Taalcon on April 27, 2021, 06:31:16 pm
My kids are part of a running club, with two adult leaders, my wife often being one of them. When they are gathered together close for instruction and games and aren't 6 feet apart, they mask. When they're running, and are distanced from each other, they are unmasked.

Tucker just told his audience to call the cops on my kids' running club.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on April 27, 2021, 07:11:05 pm
You are very fortunate, Taalcom, that you don’t live in a state that mandates mask wearing for all activities outside, such as Oregon did.  Oregon just changed the rules to allow kids to be maskless while participating in non-contact sports. Why? Because a young woman at a track meet passed out just short of the finish line due to lack of oxygen caused by wearing her mask.  Sorry, I believe that forcing kids/youths outside to wear masks can be abusive. Current understanding of transmission and for COVID is that being inside for an extended period of time is where most the spread occurs. Transmission while outside is rare.

As for Tucker Carlson, did you actually watch the segment or are you responding to what the pundits and competing networks are reporting?
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Taalcon on April 27, 2021, 07:20:53 pm
Of course I watched it before posting about it. Did you?

I was surprised to hear about that Oregon story, seeing everything I've seen has shown that's not an issue. (https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20201103/dont-believe-the-myth-face-masks-dont-lower-oxygen-levels#1) I did see a  story saying this (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/oregon-coach-blasts-facemask-requirement-student-collapses):

Quote
Williams’s coach, Dave Turnbull, took issue with the fact that she was forced to wear a mask and suggested a lack of oxygen was responsible for her fall.

That the Coach, who already didn't like mandates, suggested that was the reason. I don't know what happened.  There are any number of reasons a runner can blackout, mask or no. But if it was indeed that, it would definitely be an outlier.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jen on April 27, 2021, 07:29:40 pm
I can't see Tucker Carlson as anything but an irresponsible trust fund shock jock with no scruples.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on April 27, 2021, 08:41:38 pm
Perhaps it was an outlier but the Oregon Health Authority did update its guidelines as a result ... or it was quite the coincidence in timing.

Jen, please don't hold back. Tell us what you really think of Tucker.  ;)

Taalcon, actually I did see it. And I've also seen the commentary and news reports that are using it to silence opinion they disagree with.

Calling the police about people wearing masks? As ridiculous as calling the police about people not wearing them or having too many guests. Reasonable people don't do such things but we've all learned people aren't necessarily rational when they are frightened or feel pushed into corners.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Taalcon on April 27, 2021, 08:49:48 pm
Quote
Calling the police about people wearing masks? As ridiculous as calling the police about people not wearing them or having too many guests.

I agree. I don't advocate calling the police on them, as I believe that would escalate the situation. Then you get risk of infection PLUS the risk of someone getting shot.

While there's definitely been occasions of both pro-mask and anti-mask zealots getting out of hand, I also think you have to see the distinction between criticizing behavior that can actually potentially cause a harmful infectious disease to spread, and behavior that one just views as ... silly or useless? I guess?
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on April 27, 2021, 10:22:48 pm
As if CPS caseworkers aren't already overwhelmed with cases of real abuse. Tucker Carlson, One Delta Ten Tango.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on April 28, 2021, 02:05:20 pm
Group One Delta Ten Tango always has room for new members. Politicians especially welcome, since many already have the basic KSAs & suitable personality & character traits.

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Airline-bans-Alaska-state-senator-for-violating-16127711.php

This one is especially outrageous.

https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/2021-04-Temecula-Jessica-Alexander-mask-Rosa-Parks-16130353.php
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on April 28, 2021, 07:50:23 pm
It seems to me one of the things people really got upset with Orange Man Bad was his use of tweets to insult people. So how is insulting people in forums like this morally superior? Yeah. I’m insulted - calling people idiots whether to their face or in an online forum does not seem to be a Christlike action to me.

I live in St George. Not far from here are memorials dedicated to the Missouri pioneers slaughtered by Mormons (mountain meadows massacre). I often wonder how people who covenanted with God to take Christ’s name on them came to the point of mercilessly  murdering, cruelly and inhumanely, innocent men and women.

They had been victims and felt justified in their anger and hate. Once the line of hate is crossed, the adversary carefully leads them.

Fortunately all people who start allowing hate in their hearts because they are justified never come close to committing atrocities.  The Lord has instructed us on how we are to treat those that despitefully use us.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on April 28, 2021, 08:42:03 pm
So, more fun from a state where people gleefully fly confederate flags:
I work community-based mental health. The only insurance that covers my particular service in my state is Medicaid, which means that 99% of the people I work with are on Disability, which means the vast majority of the people I work with are extremely vulnerable for one reason or another.
My agency has been great and we were doing only telehealth for a number of months, and started offering in-person visits on an "as-comfortable" (for provider AND client) basis a couple of months ago with adherence to certain safety guidelines, and just in this last month we started being able to occasionally transport people, as comfortable, with extra safety measures.
One safety measure is that within 6 feet, masks are required. That means that 100% of the time we are connecting someone to a resource, masks are required by both provider and client. I haven't had a client yet who has been upset about this (even though I can sometimes tell they don't like it).
So, Monday I was driving a client home from a resource. We were both masked, as required. But some idjit decided he needed to flash his lights, come up beside us, honk and mock and point and wave his mask at us, like we were idiots for wearing masks and it was somehow his duty to 'save' us.
And yes, I will call him an idjit. He was WAY out of line. A certain narcissistic former cheez-nip-in-chief got in trouble for mocking whole swaths of people, from the disabled to races to ethnicities to whole populations of other countries to entire political or social organizations. That's not mocking behavior so much as manipulative and hateful rhetoric used to foster a sense of superiority, hate, and fear. It's a wildly different situation.

And as to calling cops on kids wearing masks outside=calling cops on those not wearing masks: while the busybodies calling cops on anti-maskers are being overdramatic, the difference I see is that the anti-maskers were breaking the law. Kids wearing masks outside, and the parents who ask them to, are not breaking the law. Which is kind of a huge factor in deciding when it's appropriate to call the cops.

Last month I wrote letters to the sisters I minister to. This week I got a card back from one expressing, basically, that she can't come back to church until she feels comfortable. Which might be a while. She was formerly a very active person in the ward, but she's older and vulnerable and her husband is very vulnerable.
Meanwhile, our RS president refuses to wear a mask, and mocks the idea of Zoom for meetings. The difference? One is openly seen in a position of authority, and those around her are there specifically there because they have the same mindset. In the meantime, a great number of silent, vulnerable people are being driven away by the callous and selfish behavior of leaders who only tend to the squeaky wheels.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on April 28, 2021, 11:09:37 pm
Yeah. I’m insulted
To be clear, Palmon, nobody called you an idiot.

Quote
people who start allowing hate in their hearts because they are justified
Also, to be clear, I don't have hate in my heart for Tucker Carlson. I just think he's an idiot. The world is full of idiots, including me, more often than I would like to admit.

Tucker Carlson has built a following by claiming to be a champion of individual liberty and limited government. And yet, when parents make a choice about how to raise their children--a choice he doesn't agree with--he calls it abuse and wants government agents to respond. The government can't mandate masks, but the government has a moral obligation to prevent people from wearing them. Pure idiocy. A synonym for idiotic is stupid. Tucker Carlson is an idiot--he's stupid--if he thinks that people are not intelligent enough to see through his masquerade. He's not a champion of individual liberty. He's just harassing people who are not in lockstep with his ideology.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jen on April 28, 2021, 11:15:39 pm
Dyany, just offering sympathy and commiseration. I know it's not just an Idaho disease (the idjiocy, not COVID), but it sure is prevalent here. Between seeing the ugly backside of the state and other things happening (cost of living, etc.), we're actively looking at options to leave when it makes sense for us to leave.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on April 29, 2021, 07:04:03 am
People with sincere beliefs or reservations are not idjits, & they are not being disrespectful or antisocial if they do not let their beliefs cause harm to anyone else... the old adage about someone's fist & their neighbor's nose.

People who deliberately flout proven factual or scientific evidence when they have the knowledge or education to know better are idjits & worse, especially if they are influencers or opinion shapers who have the ability to affect other people's behavior in negative ways. Will it help if I say that both Tucker Carlson & AOC are dangerous idjits?

Someone who refuses to accept the CDC's judgment that we can ease up a little on restrictions now that more folks are vaccinated, & someone who says the virus is not a problem but just an exaggerated case of the flu, might both be idjits to some degree. As long as neither of them is doing or saying things that can impact anyone else in harmful ways, their idjitcy is a personal matter. So whose idjitcy is more likely to hurt others: the one who thinks cooties are rampant & will never ever take off their mask to go out on their front lawn, or the one who refuses to ever wear a mask because personal liberty & has no qualms about breathing or coughing in crowds where the rest of us happen to be?
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on April 29, 2021, 09:51:55 am
OK, I'm just browsing the morning's news, & I have this gift dropped right on my lap of a prime, indisputable, unassailable example of One Delta Ten Tango. This is not an ignorant, uneducated, gullible, vulnerable common person, but a public official showing an absence of any cranial content, & the type of people we mean when we use the I-word.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/gop-official-in-orange-county-really-asked-doctor-if-covid-vaccines-had-tracking-devices-and-got-response-he-deserved/ar-BB1g9jAO?ocid=msedgntp
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on April 29, 2021, 08:39:21 pm
https://news.yahoo.com/forgeries-spread-cdc-tells-states-204449132.html

Trumpies, QAnon, & similar ilk are promoting fake/forged vaccination cards.

They don’t believe in being vaccinated, they don’t believe the virus is more than a nasty cold, so why don’t they stand up straight like grown men & women with the strength of their convictions, look everyone in the eye, & shout that they don’t need no stinkin’ cards? They hate the government but are happy to manipulate its functions & documents for their personal use. These fearless guardians of our (oops, I mean their) liberties ought to be yelling “Don’t Tread On Me” & telling anyone who asks about their vaccination status to just go to Hades. But no, they want to refuse the vaccine & game the system, & get to go places & do things that people can who have been cooperative. So they’re going to sneak around with phony cards (isn’t falsifying a government document some sort of crime?), lying & risking the health of those around them.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on May 01, 2021, 11:09:15 am
This will be an alarmist type post, but I think necessary.

I have been learning more about India's current Covid problem. It is bad. Usually the media likes hyping and amplifying doom and gloom, but they seem to be underplaying what is going on in India. It is like New York early in the pandemic, but spread across a much larger population with much worse infrastructure. What happens in India will affect us here.

India is the world's largest democracy. There are many, many ethnic Indians living in America, many first or second generation with strong ties back to India. India has an unbelievable wealth gap. The middle and upper class live lives very similar to ours in the USA or Europe. But on the other side, their poor people make our poor and homeless look like kings and queens. It is possible that India really didn't avoid a first wave, it just happened among the poor, so they didn't have the infrastructure to report it. The main sign was an increase use of the crematoriums. But now it is spreading among the middle and upper classes, so it is now being reported as best they can report.

It is likely 3-10 times worse than what is reported. Reported are now 400,000 new cases a day. The curve is nearly a vertical line upward and they have a large, susceptible population, so there is plenty of room to go upward. While obesity and chronic disease do not appear to be as common in India a in the US or Europe, Indians may not be as healthy as we imagine, which makes them more susceptible to the disease, especially severe forms. Many have adopted more "westernized" or processed food diets. Many have undiagnosed diabetes or prediabetes with higher levels of visceral fat, which is the unhealthy fat (the so called skinny-fat person).

India is a very crowded place. Being outdoors doesn't protect as much there as here, because they are so very, very crowded. They are in the faces of each other all the time. Wearing a mask outdoors in India makes a lot more sense, unlike in the USA, where it is easy in nearly every place to not be face to face with others when outside.

At this level of spread, and with their level of infrastructure, vaccinations are likely not the short term answer. If they could magically start giving out 3 million vaccines a day, we wouldn't see results from that for 3-4 months. Vaccinated immunity may never reach the level of so called natural immunity. And their vaccination process may be spreading the virus, as they have been cramming close together in long lines while waiting for the vaccine.

This will effect the rest of the world. New, more infectious variants may emerge. While the mRNA vaccines (and even the DNA vaccines) are extremely powerful against today's variants, throwing in 300,000,000 new cases over the next few months increases the odds of vaccine escape. And with a younger population, their variants may begin to find ways to infect younger people preferentially. This is something to watch out for.

This is the end of my alarmist post.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on May 01, 2021, 11:26:59 am
On the other side of things, Israel is doing awesome with their aggressive pursuit of vaccinations. Their deaths began tapering off a while ago, and now hospitalizations and even new positive tests are coming to a standstill. They are opening most things back up, and they should. That is what such high levels of vaccinations can do given time.

With regard to Covid vaccinations in their country, I might even praise it as an LDS version of Zion (not the regular, worldly use of Zionism). Rather, a population working together for the benefit of all, which especially protects the vulnerable (and there were no poor (Covid positive) among them).
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on May 01, 2021, 10:49:44 pm
I don't think your post is alarmist, Jason. Thank you for sharing the information. In addition to the humanitarian crisis in India, I worry how this will affect vaccine production. India has been called the "pharmacy to the world." If they have to shut down vaccine production lines because all the workers are sick...
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on May 01, 2021, 11:00:47 pm
This will be an alarmist type post
I don't think it's alarmist. It is alarming to hear even partial reports of what is happening in India. It is the world's second most populous country, & the majority of people there do not live like the expatriates that most of us know in the U.S., Canada, or other first-world countries.

We know that India has nuclear weapons & ambitions of space exploration. We are accustomed to seeing the tech or health professionals who have either the means or the good fortune to be able to emigrate for education or career. Theoretically, India has the capacity to compete with the first world in some fields. But outside the cities, even outside the prosperous parts of the cities, the average person lives in crowded conditions with poor sanitation (I read awhile back that India has among the highest percentages of people who go to the bathroom in the open air) & limited access to medical care or clean water.

Whether in New York City or in a third-world country, people living under those conditions will always be more prone to getting & spreading contagious diseases. The U.S. offer of A-Z vaccine to India is well-meaning & generous, but a barrage of vaccine once an epidemic is this entrenched is like 100 archers with bows & arrows trying to shoot down an F-117A.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on May 01, 2021, 11:07:42 pm
Rather, a population working together for the benefit of all, which especially protects the vulnerable (and there were no poor (Covid positive) among them).

This would be the ideal, but it requires that everyone be similarly motivated & be willing to put the greater good ahead of individual desires, appetites, & passions. Perhaps Israel, with its history of having to stand alone against multiple threats with often only itself to rely on, & knowing that everyone had a role to fill & was needed for everyone else's survival, has an advantage over countries that have less experience with immediate, direct threats to their existence.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on May 07, 2021, 08:09:24 pm
Government responses are like using a large club to bludgeon a problem. The more distant the government, the more bludgeoning takes place. Take the CDC's guidance on summer camps. Outdoor use of masks by children in the summertime is generally not useful, especially now that vaccines are widespread and testing is readily accessible. The CDC either didn't think through all of the ramifications of their guidance, or they thought they thought that nuance would be too confusing, so they would err on the side of overbearance, so no one could blame them if a case or two happened.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on May 07, 2021, 08:45:42 pm
I saw today that Pfizer has applied for full FDA approval. I know that some people are wary of getting vaccinated because they don't want to be a "Guinea Pig." Hopefully, full approval will help alleviate their fears.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on May 08, 2021, 10:22:23 pm
Here is someone who might caution vaccinated people not to be too complacent & assume they are 100% safe. Damion Lee is a healthy & fit young man, a Golden State Warrior. He is Steph Curry's BIL, & the Curry family is full of accomplished athletes, so he has other health-conscious people all around him.

He got the plague about a month after his J&J shot, one of the very rare "breakthrough" cases among fully vaxed people. He describes the symptoms, respiratory distress, feeling like he had been hit by two cars, hurting each time he took a step, & brain fog, which he said was the worst. He has been out 2 weeks with no idea when he will start practicing & playing again.

https://www.sfgate.com/warriors/amp/2021-05-Warriors-Damion-Lee-COVID-breakthrough-1st-16159631.php

Many of us in the Bay Area are still distancing, wearing masks, & being picky about where we go & whom we see. Maybe we're paranoid. But a little paranoia 😷 sounds like a small inconvenience compared to this poor guy's ordeal. 🤒
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on May 09, 2021, 12:59:06 am
With regard to minors getting the vaccine, I am in favor of teenagers getting it, as their body size, breathing patterns, and thus ability to spread the virus would be comparable to adults. Even though their own personal risk of severe disease from the Coronavirus is low, them getting the vaccine would help further a herd immunity.

I have yet to see any reason why younger children should get the vaccine. Their own personal risk of severe disease is low, and they do not readily spread the virus to others, likely because they are short, do not breathe and spray virus as far, and have overall lower viral load than bigger people. Vaccinating younger children would not help us achieve herd immunity in any meaningful way.

Those vaccines would be better used in other parts of the world on more vulnerable populations.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on May 11, 2021, 02:07:44 pm
According to this NY Times article, the CDC stated last month that the transmission rate while outside was less than 10%. It appears that is a bit misleading and actually is less than 1%, possibly even 0.1%.  It is an interesting read.

A Misleading CDC Number - New York Times
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/11/briefing/outdoor-covid-transmission-cdc-number.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/11/briefing/outdoor-covid-transmission-cdc-number.html)
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on May 12, 2021, 10:20:55 am
Yay vaccine!  In my neck of the woods in Colorado, I'm seeing a growing desire to return to normal at all levels.   

Government: The governor has been renewing his indoor mask mandate every month, while relaxing some of the guidelines every time he renews it.  We figure he's 4-6 weeks away from turning things over to counties.  And my county won't have any mask orders. 

Church: Every Sunday, there are more and more unmasked faces in the pews.  After seeing my bishop's smiling face among them, I've stopped the practice myself.  They tell me to expect to continue running the camera during sacrament meeting indefinitely, but it wouldn't surprise me if they stop the practice at some point in the future to get folks back to church.

Employment: Bosses will be one titch more cautious than local governments mandate.  And they are talking about having everyone return to work as early as June, and each site, is identifying a future special day of celebration when that site makes full returns to normal - no masks, social distancing, closed break rooms.  No firm dates set yet, but looks like they're on the horizon.  Maybe this year.

Local business: Folks working at my weekly BBQ joint dumped masks.  There's a sense of joy and hope, and a little defiance. 

Every minute that ticks by in my county, another bunch of people say "enough" and dump their masks.

I see these changes as a result of widespread availability of the vaccine.  Agency put into practice.  We started with "stop the spread", evolved into "protect our vulnerable", and now we're moving into "our vulnerable, and everyone else, can choose for themselves".   I see it all this as a good thing.

I will be very happy to see my county, my state, my country, and the world, put this whole deal in our collective rear view mirrors by end of year.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Taalcon on May 12, 2021, 11:45:07 am
Quote
Church: Every Sunday, there are more and more unmasked faces in the pews.  After seeing my bishop's smiling face among them, I've stopped the practice myself.  They tell me to expect to continue running the camera during sacrament meeting indefinitely, but it wouldn't surprise me if they stop the practice at some point in the future to get folks back to church.

Honestly, I hope wards keep running the cameras indefinitely. This isn't just a Covid thing. There are many who have been homebound since long before Covid who just got an opportunity to experience Church with everyone else for the first time, and finally feel included. And now it's being considered to have that taken away from them.

There are many who would take the first step of an invitation to watch a broadcast of a Sacrament Meeting who aren't at the point where they're ready to make the social jump to attending a ward to investigate. This is an excellent first step, and one the Ward Mission Leader should be discussing with the missionaries. For those who didn't come to Church with the Missionaries as requested, have them send out a link by text to check it out.

Those who would come to Church will come anyway. Taking away broadcasts is just pushing more people away from feeling included, and giving them opportunities to worship with you.

FWIW.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on May 13, 2021, 03:34:38 pm
I find it counterproductive to require masks for the vaccinated only section at an outdoor MLB baseball game. That is unnecessary and hurting vaccination advocacy. On a 1-10 scale if effectiveness, vaccines are a 10 and masks a 3.   
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on May 13, 2021, 03:40:05 pm
Just got an email - the missionaries in my area are able to have meals in people's houses again!  Feeding them over the last year has been quite difficult.  I never saw a guy happier to be released as Mission President and called into the bishopric, than our old WML.

Yay more normal!

Oh - and I forgot a snapshot of schools in my area: Summer activities for elementary school kids will have zero COVID measures.  Fall students will be back to in-person school full time.   There are decent odds of having no masks when they return.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on May 13, 2021, 04:21:35 pm
This just came across my news feed:

- If you are fully vaccinated, you can resume activities that you did prior to the pandemic.
- Fully vaccinated people can resume activities without wearing a mask or physically distancing, except where required by federal, state, local, tribal, or territorial laws, rules, and regulations, including local business and workplace guidance.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated.html (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated.html)

School is out in two more weeks. The day after, I think I'll host a neighborhood mask burning bonfire at my house!
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on May 13, 2021, 05:24:49 pm
Happy dance!

https://twitter.com/whitehouse/status/1392907170702839808?s=21
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on May 14, 2021, 08:18:10 am
Did Biden actually change his executive order mandating masks on and in federal property?
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on May 14, 2021, 09:04:36 am
Oh, now every govt agency, council, business, church, and everyone else with a policy or health order, gets to figure out how to handle things.  Still lots of things to fight about.  What about the unvaccinated?  How do we know?  Are we going to ask? Make people show proof? Put up a fight if someone demands proof? 

But yeah, this is a big step in the slow process of putting COVID in our collective rear view mirrors.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on May 14, 2021, 10:00:27 am
Gov. Cox (Utah) announced a new public health order ending the mask mandate for Utah public schools for the last week of school. Woo Hoo! Staring Monday, May 24th, face coverings are now optional at my school.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on May 14, 2021, 10:08:48 am
What about the unvaccinated?  How do we know?  Are we going to ask? Make people show proof? Put up a fight if someone demands proof? 

But yeah, this is a big step in the slow process of putting COVID in our collective rear view mirrors.

Enforcement is impossible. Hopefully, the measure will encourage more people who are hesitant to get the vaccine. And, there is political cachet for the Biden administration in making this move at this time. He gains more approval from his base, and he gains the support of more small-government independents who see it as a shift from government mandates to individual responsibility. There will still be people who hate every move he makes, but this was politically smart.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Taalcon on May 14, 2021, 12:38:54 pm
Meanwhile, my 7 year old sons' Primary teacher just posted on Facebook, "Let's all just admit we no longer live in the land of the free. I'll stick to unvaccinated and unmasked, thanks."

We were just talking about getting ready to take the family back to Church. Never mind. Maybe after the kids can get vaccinated at the end of the year.

Our kids' leaders don't care about them more than they care about virtue signalling their politics.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on May 14, 2021, 02:40:23 pm
It seems everyone is prone to enlarging their own phylactories. I would rather trend toward practicality.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: pnr on May 15, 2021, 03:17:51 pm

 The day after, I think I'll host a neighborhood mask burning bonfire at my house!

I wouldn't:  there will be another pandemic.  Save them in your preparedness kit.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Taalcon on May 15, 2021, 04:26:09 pm
In the future, use it if you or someone in your family is sick, and you need to go to the store or out in public for any reason. They don't need to be just for Covid :)
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on May 15, 2021, 05:21:06 pm
Real preppers look at this news with unbridled glee at how cheap pandemic supplies are becoming.  Time to stock up for the next apocalypse!
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jen on May 15, 2021, 07:31:35 pm
Meanwhile, my 7 year old sons' Primary teacher just posted on Facebook, "Let's all just admit we no longer live in the land of the free. I'll stick to unvaccinated and unmasked, thanks."

We were just talking about getting ready to take the family back to Church. Never mind. Maybe after the kids can get vaccinated at the end of the year.

Our kids' leaders don't care about them more than they care about virtue signalling their politics.

I'm sure you could hear my sad, heavy sigh from way over there. It's the same in my ward. I'm so glad I just got put back in primary (behind the piano) myself so I don't have to deal with Gospel Doctrine political garbage.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on May 15, 2021, 10:32:32 pm
Pfizer has been approved for ages 12 and up. That just leaves my youngest two children. I'm happy to wait until more vulnerable populations get vaccinated. We had COVID in my house last summer, and my youngest two never had symptoms, even though we were all breathing the same indoor air.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: cook on May 16, 2021, 06:31:22 am
I know things are different in every place. But I find it interesting how people are feeling like it's over when, in my understanding, the vaccines do not give 100% proof, the effect is said to last maybe only 6 months, it's not effective on all the new variants etc.

I'll be happy when it will be seen only as a regular yearly flu season. And when we will be able to return to normal. But I think we will have to accept that we will not be fully protected and it will be a thing that will kill people yearly, more so than a regular flu.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on May 16, 2021, 05:05:44 pm
Quote from: cook
I find it interesting how people are feeling like it's over when, in my understanding, the vaccines do not give 100% proof, the effect is said to last maybe only 6 months, it's not effective on all the new variants etc.

I'll be happy when it will be seen only as a regular yearly flu season. And when we will be able to return to normal. But I think we will have to accept that we will not be fully protected and it will be a thing that will kill people yearly, more so than a regular flu.

"It's over" - it's an interesting concept.  I've heard folks who studied the Spanish Flu of the 1920's put it this way.  It was "over", not when people stopped being sick or dying, but when people had enough of thinking about it, and went back to their lives as normal.  Government health mandates end the exact nanosecond it stops being politically advantageous to keep them.  Businesses open as soon as they can.  People get sick of hearing about it, and stop listening.

I'm happy to wait until more vulnerable populations get vaccinated.
I thought you lived in the US.  I know each state did the vaccine rollout differently, did any not use a phased approach to make sure all the vulnerable populations were eligible first, before making it open to all comers?  What vulnerable populations are left?

Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Taalcon on May 16, 2021, 05:43:45 pm
Quote
I know each state did the vaccine rollout differently, did any not use a phased approach to make sure all the vulnerable populations were eligible first, before making it open to all comers?  What vulnerable populations are left?

Yeah. And in my part of Georgia, so many people are refusing to get vaccinated that places are begging more people to come in to get the shots to contribute to building the herd immunity to protect the younger kids (like mine!) who can't get vaccinated yet, as well as to keep it away from those who are refusing to do anything to protect themselves. Availability here is generally not a problem. It's generally not helping anyone out to wait.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on May 16, 2021, 06:18:01 pm
I shoulda been more clear: Vulnerable populations across the world. There are still a lot of places desperate for the vaccine.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on May 16, 2021, 07:10:39 pm
I know things are different in every place. But I find it interesting how people are feeling like it's over when, in my understanding, the vaccines do not give 100% proof, the effect is said to last maybe only 6 months, it's not effective on all the new variants etc.

I'll be happy when it will be seen only as a regular yearly flu season. And when we will be able to return to normal. But I think we will have to accept that we will not be fully protected and it will be a thing that will kill people yearly, more so than a regular flu.
The antibodies from the vaccines have lasted longer than 6 months, as they have followed the people in the earliest trials. Antibodies from the vaccines are thought to last longer than antibodies from a 'natural infection'. Even if the antibodies stop being produced in a couple of years, the memory cells will remain, which will still allow a relatively rapid onset of an immune response in the future. The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are very effective against the variants.

It might be more desirable if the Coronavirus eventually fills the niche of the yearly, endemic influenza, as it will be less harmful to young people than regular influenza is. But I am doubtful that it will take over that niche. Influenza is an amazingly powerful virus with a great ability to compete. Its shorter incubation is one reason that flu vaccines are less effective than Coronavirus vaccines. Perhaps it will remain, but not take over that niche.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on May 16, 2021, 07:58:41 pm
Jason, I am always thankful for your discussions of the vaccines from a medical/scientific standpoint. Sometimes it's difficult to discern the facts through all the political noise generated by both sides.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on May 17, 2021, 12:51:04 am
Something I have been interested in is how accurate some of the epidemiological predictions have become. They have been able to predict the plot of curves and when peaks will occur when current daily numbers might make one think the opposite was happening. I remember in November or early December reading that a massive peak in the USA would happen in mid January. At the time I thought there was no way it would get that bad. Then in mid January I remember feeling like it was so out of control that there was no way my parents could not get the virus before they got a vaccine. But the curve went down as predicted.

I think the CDC made the current mask changes based on their ever increasingly accurate predictions of the future, even with the knowledge/caveat that some unvaccinated people will lie. I think that caveat is why they were cautious and this happened a month later than I thought it should have.

This change has renewed my faith in them as an institution that is largely staffed by people without a political agenda and who are learning and improving as they go along. It also helps me refine my filter of how to glean truth from what politicians and those with political agendas are saying. This despite some people wanting to say that the change was because various leadership people wanted to distract from a lot of bad news happening, like inflation, lack luster job creation, scandals, world events, etc.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jana at Jade House on May 17, 2021, 08:48:41 am
The Professor has jab appointments!  I am so glad for him. One step closer to in person interaction with classes.  Yipee.
But not until mid July.
It is one hurdle less for returning to our happy academic bubble...
Now to wait til China is safe....
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on May 17, 2021, 11:59:58 am
The antibodies from the vaccines have lasted longer than 6 months, as they have followed the people in the earliest trials.
That's me!  I was in the Moderna phase III trial, got my vaccinations last August/September.  Every 3 months or so, they take 8 vials of blood from me.  I wish they made the various test results available to me, but I guess I see how long my antibodies last by watching the news.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on May 17, 2021, 07:30:22 pm
8 vials??!! How could they possibly need that much? I thought the V.A. was extreme. Every time I go in for a checkup, I get the "VA Special": Five vials and a cup. And they run a lot of tests from those five vials.

Thank you, NT, for being part of the trial and for giving so much blood  8)
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on May 17, 2021, 09:12:14 pm
I asked about the number of vials.  They only use 3 or so of them, for antibody testing and such things.  The rest is frozen for future possible testing they might come up with a reason to do in the future.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: LMAshton on May 19, 2021, 11:09:32 am
Quote
Church: Every Sunday, there are more and more unmasked faces in the pews.  After seeing my bishop's smiling face among them, I've stopped the practice myself.  They tell me to expect to continue running the camera during sacrament meeting indefinitely, but it wouldn't surprise me if they stop the practice at some point in the future to get folks back to church.

Honestly, I hope wards keep running the cameras indefinitely. This isn't just a Covid thing. There are many who have been homebound since long before Covid who just got an opportunity to experience Church with everyone else for the first time, and finally feel included. And now it's being considered to have that taken away from them.

There are many who would take the first step of an invitation to watch a broadcast of a Sacrament Meeting who aren't at the point where they're ready to make the social jump to attending a ward to investigate. This is an excellent first step, and one the Ward Mission Leader should be discussing with the missionaries. For those who didn't come to Church with the Missionaries as requested, have them send out a link by text to check it out.

Those who would come to Church will come anyway. Taking away broadcasts is just pushing more people away from feeling included, and giving them opportunities to worship with you.

FWIW.

ALL of this.

I'm one of those who've been able to watch church meetings for the first time in a very long time, and I'm glad of it. Stop those broadcasts and I don't know when I'll next be able to "attend" church in any way.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on May 20, 2021, 03:21:02 pm
I have watched while working at the hospital. I even can occasionally hear my 21 month old yelling, so I know he is there.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on May 21, 2021, 11:00:05 am
Times they are a-changing!  I stood in my office at work with no mask!  Only been there half a dozen times since last April.  My work is making the no-mask option available, only for people who are willing to attest they have been vaccinated.  Lying on the form might not get someone fired, but lying on the form and then giving someone covid on site sure could be.

Sunday our stake moved to the "make your own health decisions, and be respectful to others that have different opinions and make other decisions" phase. State mandate is still "mask until vaxxed", but in the US there is little to no enforcing that at churches.  So wonderful to see everyone's faces.  Still broadcasting weekly - no end in sight.

Our passionately zealous 17 yr old lectures us regularly about how we should keep wearing masks even though we've been vaccinated.  She's a couple days away from her 2-week-since-the-2nd-dose mark, and her lectures are losing some of their oomph.

Exchanging happy words with the unmasked greeter at WalMart.  He says "Now I can finally prove to people that yes, I do actually smile.  They never believed me."   It feels weird to walk around grocery stores and order food at restaurants with no mask on.  Feels like I'm doing something wrong.  I have to run through all my facts about why there's no more good reason for me to wear them, other than to follow individual business policies that are swiftly changing.  I expect doctor's appointments and hospitals will be one of the last to drop masks.

At this point, COVID is still demanding to drive slowly in the left lane, so I'm passing on the right.  I still see it out of the corner of my eye - not in the rear view mirror yet.  But soon.

Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on May 22, 2021, 10:16:04 am
State mandate is still "mask until vaxxed", but in the US there is little to no enforcing that at churches.

Someone pointed out to me that Colorado has dumped the mandate totally, going with "Any individual...who is not fully vaccinated, is encouraged to wear" a mask indoors whenever members of different households are present. (bolding mine)

https://covid19.colorado.gov/mask-guidance?fbclid=IwAR3gDboEMPG-PsVfdfFWEA-94vpX3Pc9uV1w5KlLMbVbKrgdMt3aqhxEvvE
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on May 22, 2021, 10:56:48 pm
1. My ward is similar to Jen's and Taalcon's. Maybe 30-35% wore the masks before the announcement, and now maybe 5% do, even though I am pretty sure no more than maybe 10% have been vaccinated.
2. I go to Church now for one reason and one reason only: Because God told me to in recent inspiration. I wear a mask and bring Xanax because the disdain there is palpable. I have been in apathetic wards before and realized I had to just go for God and Christ. I can and will do it again.
3. Yes, I was vaccinated over 2 months ago. I wear the mask much less for me and more for the comfort of the vulnerable (especially with my permanent chronic cough). My body may be a weak pile of crap, but I am not such a wuss that I'm gonna pitch a fit about wearing a mask for the comfort of others.
4. I know at least 2 people who are extremely vulnerable, to the point that they cannot get the vaccine because their body cannot appropriately create the antibodies from it. They are some of the reasons I still wear a mask and will continue to follow courteous health safety protocols.
5. A week ago we had a meeting for my calling (the first in at least 18 months...yes, from before the pandemic, but none of the leaders who could call meetings would call meetings). I asked if it would be Zoom or in-person and was met with shock, but they said they could do Zoom if I preferred such. I asked Heavenly Father what I should do, as I knew I was no longer as vulnerable and the group was small, and though my instinct was to ask for Zoom, I didn't want to do so in an emotional protest. Heavenly Father indicated I should ask for Zoom, so I stomped all over their heavy-handed hints that Zoom was unnecessary, and I requested Zoom. The other person invited, who had said nothing over the course of this text conversation, later said that she needed Zoom, too. I don't know if Heavenly Father had me speak up for her (she is a cancer survivor), or for the example it set, or to speak up for the silent people who are feeling ostracized from the ward for being vulnerable. But I did it.

It's not quite over.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on May 26, 2021, 08:50:40 pm
I went to the gym today and did not wear a mask while exercising. It felt normal.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on June 05, 2021, 06:30:02 pm
I am interested to find out more about the origin of the coronavirus. It is looking more likely that it was a lab leak. The cover up of that story is probably the bigger story, whether the media who claimed it was debunked and falsely fact checked because they hated Trump or the deep-state/NIH not wanting the USA's involvement in China's gain of function research to come to light. Both need to be investigated.

How the March 12, 2019 Barcelona sewage sample plays into this is also interesting. That might have come from someone from Wuhan traveling to Spain, perhaps before the virus had mutated to a more infectious variety. I would hope that other countries check their samples to gauge the early spread.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jana at Jade House on June 05, 2021, 10:27:43 pm
Sometime in June (did not catch the date) we can sign up to reserve one of 30 seats in the chapel. no idea what kind of restrictions to follow.  Since my driver will not be fully ready for groups until mid July he might not be happy to go sit in a pew just yet.

but I got to hug my friend for the first time in 18 months this week.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on June 10, 2021, 08:37:37 pm
Before you encourage young people to get vaccinated, watch carefully the information coming in now. In the US, rates of myocarditis is twice the rate expected in young men 15-24. In Israel it is much higher.
 https://www.reuters.com/world/us/cdc-heart-inflammation-cases-ages-16-24-higher-than-expected-after-mrna-covid-19-2021-06-10/ (https://www.reuters.com/world/us/cdc-heart-inflammation-cases-ages-16-24-higher-than-expected-after-mrna-covid-19-2021-06-10/)
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on June 10, 2021, 09:59:39 pm
The mRNA vaccine is given intramuscularly. The muscle cells take up the mRNA and begin making it right there. The mRNA decays and is metabolized in the muscles. It doesn't go anywhere else. Or at least it is not supposed to. The muscles have a lot of blood flow. Some are hypothesizing that occasionally some of the mRNA vaccine is injected into the blood stream rather than into the muscle tissue. mRNA is typically rapidly destroyed in the blood stream, but if some made it to the heart's blood flow and was taken up into the heart muscles, it could induce an immune response in the heart muscles. This might be the cause of the myocarditis.

Some are also hypothesizing that when giving the mRNA vaccine they should pull back on the syringe prior to injecting, to see if they are intravascular. This would catch obvious intravenous injections, though it wouldn't prevent capillaries from taking up the mRNA.

Fortunately this is a very rare problem that mostly is not too serious. Heart issues with the actual virus Covid are much more common.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on June 10, 2021, 10:52:33 pm
Jason, that is an interesting hypothesis but would not explain why this is happening to young men in particular and not so much other age groups. As I said, if you have young relatives, it is something to watch and maybe not be in a hurry to vaccinate them, especially since in the age groups affected by this, the virus is not really a big deal. But that is just my uneducated opinion, which means that it is just that - an opinion.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on June 11, 2021, 12:18:07 am
Perhaps because young men have more muscles (which are highly vascular) and an exuberant immune response. Females and younger children do not have as much muscle mass, so it would be less likely. Older people do not have such an exuberant immune response.

While it is still a rare and mostly harmless complication, as age decreases we really start having to weigh the pros and cons of getting vaccinated. I still think there are 2 main benefits to consider which should be weighed against the cons.

1. Does it benefit the individual? No, it doesn't really provide health individual benefits to the young. Most are asymptomatic. Some have a cold. Some do develop long Covid, which is not pleasant. And there will be a few who do end up being hospitalized or dying, but this is less common than with the flu.

2. Does it benefit society? The younger one gets, the less likely one is to be a major transmitter of the virus. I think under age 12 will not become super spreaders. They just are not very tall to spread droplets very far. And they do not produce nearly as large a viral load in their exhaled breaths, probably due to their smaller breaths. Over age 12 starts to behave more like adults, so there is probably a societal benefits for them to get the vaccine.

Cons? Getting side effects and complications starts to become less worthwhile when there is only marginal benefits to getting vaccinated. At this point any adults they do end up spreading it to have chosen not to be vaccinated. It is not the responsibility of the youth to protect those who will not make the choice to protect themselves.

What about protecting those who cannot get vaccinated? That would be far less of a problem if enough healthy adults were vaccinated. Major outbreaks wouldn't be able to get a foothold.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on June 11, 2021, 01:01:51 am
As always, thank you for the medical perspective, Jason. My 17 year-old son and 15 year-old daughter have both been vaccinated, now. The next in line won't be 12 until next March. He's never had any symptoms. He's mostly around other kids his age. All the adults at school have been vaccinated. Parents and grandparents have been vaccinated. The other adults he's in prolonged contact with are at church. No idea, there. So, I'm thinking we might hold off for him and little sister.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on June 16, 2021, 12:29:11 am
Quote
A group of parents in Gainesville, FL, sent 6 face masks to a lab at the University of Florida, requesting an analysis of contaminants found on the masks after they had been worn. The resulting report found that five masks were contaminated with bacteria, parasites, and fungi, including three with dangerous pathogenic and pneumonia-causing bacteria. Although the test is capable of detecting viruses, including SARS-CoV-2, only one virus was found on one mask (alcelaphine herpesvirus 1).

The analysis detected the following 11 dangerous pathogens on the masks:

Streptococcus pneumoniae (pneumonia)
Mycobacterium tuberculosis (tuberculosis)
Neisseria meningitidis (meningitis, sepsis)
Acanthamoeba polyphaga (keratitis and granulomatous amebic encephalitis)
Acinetobacter baumanni (pneumonia, blood stream infections, meningitis, UTIs—resistant to antibiotics)
Escherichia coli (food poisoning)
Borrelia burgdorferi (causes Lyme disease)
Corynebacterium diphtheriae (diphtheria)
Legionella pneumophila (Legionnaires’ disease)
Staphylococcus pyogenes serotype M3 (severe infections—high morbidity rates)
Staphylococcus aureus (meningitis, sepsis)

The masks were either new or freshly laundered prior to being worn for 5-8 hours. 5 were worn by kids, one by an adult.

https://rationalground.com/dangerous-pathogens-found-on-childrens-face-masks/ (https://rationalground.com/dangerous-pathogens-found-on-childrens-face-masks/)
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: cook on June 16, 2021, 06:27:42 am
That is an interesting study. Do people really wear masks for that long? Here the older kids had to wear masks at school too. They pretty much change them between lessons. If you take it off, it goes in the bin. (If you wear a recyclable one,you have 3-5 during a school day).

Could it also mean the masks work? Would it all have gone inside tge person without the mask?
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: cook on June 16, 2021, 06:31:12 am
We get to go to church in person this Sunday, for two hours, masks recommended, mandatory when singing, keeping distance and high hygiene and those with health issues encouraged to stay home. The online meetings will continue at least till mid August.

Excited.

During this time I was called as the facilities person  responsible for the cleaning turns etc, so went and cleaned the church yesterday. The easiest cleaning job ever 😁
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on June 16, 2021, 11:16:10 am
I don't know how often school kids change their masks but I do know some adults wear and rewear masks without washing.

In the article about the study, it mentions that they used a t-shirt worn by one child and new masks as controls. The t-shirt didn't pick up any pathogens, but it did pick up proteins from hair, skin, nails and dirt. I'm not sure that means anything because they only used one t-shirt and maybe it was worn by one of the three kids whose mask didn't pickup any pathogens.

I think the study highlights questions that should be studied. I don't think it answers any. Perhaps this small study could be used as a warning to wear masks like the Finnish do and change them frequently.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on June 16, 2021, 02:46:17 pm
Tangentially: When the students at my school were required to wear masks, one parent told me that wearing masks is filthy and is way more harmful than "breathing free." She said, "I should know. I have advanced degrees in the hard sciences." Nope. I still have her resume' on file from last year, when she applied for a paraprofessional position. She has an Associate's degree in general studies.  ::)
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on June 16, 2021, 08:58:06 pm
Never trust anyone that claims an 'advanced' degree in 'hard sciences.'  ::)

One study does NOT science make. Science REQUIRES replicability (and tons of it) of study results. Single studies are fodder for panic-inducing pseudo-science reporting because they can seem dramatic without actually being worth a hill of beans.
Now, if you want some things closer to real science, you have to look at the hundreds of studies that show, over and over, that wearing masks reduces infections. Of most sorts of pathogens, but COVID strains have been particularly tracked in more recent studies.

This is one of the reasons I DESPISE science-evangelists--they muddy what real science actually is. Yes, science tells us lots of things. But far too often, in an effort to 'prove their point,' the s-evangelicals (yes, I'm looking at N d'GT and his ilk) overstate some conclusions in a condescending way, like they are a done deal. Almost no science is a 'done deal.'  Even stuff we've had around for centuries is generally still in 'theory' stage, and we are always collecting data. That's what science is really about: constantly collecting data to improve our understanding. If quite a few studies seem to indicate a trend or correlation or, possibly, a causation, then we can start to lean more on those findings, but the snooty "it's SCIENCE" claims, which act like questioning and studying is over, are wrong.

In this case, the sample size (6 masks) and testing conditions (parents sending the masks to a lab) are so small and so poorly controlled as to warrant almost complete dismissing of the results right out of the gate. The fact that the site is neither a peer-reviewed journal nor associated with or citing a peer-reviewed journal taints the results even more. But even IF the 'study' had, against the rules of research, valid results, it wouldn't mean that masks are dangerous. On the contrary, it could mean that the masks caught all those pathogens, stopping their transmission.
If I believed their 'study.'
Which I don't.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on June 17, 2021, 12:35:11 am
Almost no science is a 'done deal.' 

Precisely. The aims of science are to explain and to predict, not to establish certainty. Furthermore, nothing in the natural world or in human experience has been scientifically proven to be certain. The true scientists I know are the most sincerely humble and keenly inquisitive people I've ever met. They're constantly asking questions and seeking for possibilities. I don't think "certain" is a word a real scientist would ever use.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on June 17, 2021, 09:53:59 am
I have maybe 3 or 4 novelty masks I ordered like March and April of last year.  I wore them throughout the pandemic, and never washed any of them.

Happy to be putting all this in my rear view mirror.  It's growing more and more normal to go somewhere in public and see almost no masks.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on June 17, 2021, 10:54:32 am
Happy to be putting all this in my rear view mirror.  It's growing more and more normal to go somewhere in public and see almost no masks.

Amen, brother. I despised wearing masks. They constantly fogged up my glasses no matter what I did, and I felt claustrophobic all the time. I couldn't wait to get home and take the #$%@ things off. I wore them because 1) they were lawfully required, and 2) because they reduced the risk of transmission. I smile now when I go into Costco and read the big sign by the entry which says masks are not required for people who have been vaccinated. (Nobody in Costco wears masks, even though I'm sure not all of them have been vaccinated. Honestly, I don't care anymore.)
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Scruffydog on June 17, 2021, 01:15:15 pm
I wouldn't relax too much just yet. Our infection rate is rocketing again in the UK, although the hospitalisation rate is not too bad yet. This is the delta variant. Try to avoid it if you can.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on June 17, 2021, 01:34:28 pm
I still wear a mask. I am one of only 2-3 who wear them at church anymore, but there are still people uncomfortable about coming to church, still people attending via Zoom, still people getting sick, still people who are vulnerable.

This last week my husband was talking to a friend at work about the ceasing of all pandemic precautions in our ward, except for Zoom, which would have stopped except that I asked them not to because of people I know who are still not comfortable coming to meetings, and we run the dang thing.
This friend happened to be a bishop. And he showed my husband the letter THAT WEEK from the area authority outlining precautions still to be taken, including social distancing (which is no longer done in my ward), masking (no longer done in my ward).
Week before last, they crammed every adult into the RS room--while the chapel and cultural hall sat empty because we are the last ward in the building--for Sunday school. I and a friend who happens to be battling cancer refused to enter because of the risk.
This last week, after helping my husband put away the Zoom broadcast equipment, I went to the RS room, hoping it would be better with far less people.
There were far less people, but our RS president had, for some unknown reason, told everyone to cram into the seats only on one side.
Again, I refused to go in.
My husband thinks I am being 'bad' because I'm not attending that meeting. While the leaders--particularly the RS president, who has made MANY mocking statements in my hearing about pandemic precautions--openly defy both the area authority and the prophet.
I know I am vaccinated.
But I know the vast majority of my ward is not. And there are vulnerable people in my ward, some who recognize that and others who do not.
I will follow the prophet before I will follow local leaders in defiance of the prophet.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on June 17, 2021, 02:25:00 pm
Most (90%) current hospitalizations are among unvaccinated.

Delta variant is more transmissible, but not known to be more deadly. 2 doses of the mRNA vaccines are still more than 90% effective against it. Astra Seneca is still pretty effective, too. It has rapidly become the dominant strain in the UK. It is currently only 10% on the US, but it is predicted to become the dominant strain in the USA over the next month or two, mostly spreading among the unvaccinated (Idaho? Are you ready?)

Myocarditis is likely a real thing. Most common "normal" cause is post viral syndrome. I recently learned that the smallpox vaccine had a very high rate of myocarditis, especially among young men, so following a vaccine is not unheard of. Incidence with Covid vaccine is far lower than with the smallpox vaccine.

I still think it will be unlikely for Covid vaccine approval among those under age 12. What could change my mind is how common "long covid" occurs in that age range. If it turns out to be high, then the vaccine may make sense.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on June 23, 2021, 12:11:52 am
The World Health Organization is not currently recommending that non-high risk children get vaccinated. They say they do not have enough information to recommend that. This is different than the CDC, which says that everyone 12 and up should get vaccinated.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on June 23, 2021, 12:39:56 pm
I'm back in my office!  A couple of days per week right now.  Folks are slowly filtering back, mostly management at this point.
 Some were critical workers needed on site and never were absent.  I expect a slow ramp up to a full return to work, followed by a week of opening the floodgates and watching everyone pour in all at once.  Taking back our normal with gusto.

I've started a trophy wall in my cube.

Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on June 23, 2021, 06:15:54 pm
To all teachers: I have the greatest respect for you. I was a teacher for 12 years. I know what it's like in the classroom. It's time to get ready to go back to work. In person. No more, "The thought of returning to the classroom just triggers my anxiety," or "I just don't feel safe returning to the classroom." You have two months. Cowboy up. Get your shot. And get ready. If you refuse, then it's time to look for another job.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on June 23, 2021, 10:08:43 pm
I anticipate that there is currently a lot of lobbying by the various teacher's unions to recommend vaccinations for children. I suspect the unions are not going to be happy when the CDC does not lower the ages it recommends for vaccinations. I even suspect that the CDC will soon not recommend those 12 years old be vaccinated unless they have co-morbidities or live with at risk people.

The delta variant is doubling its percentage of the reported cases in the USA every 2 weeks (it is becoming the dominant strain). In May it was around 1% of cases. About 2 weeks ago it was 10%. It is now 20%. July 7th it is estimated it will be 40% of cases, and July 24th 80% of US cases. Places that have lower vaccination rates are going to have it spread fastest such as Utah, Missouri, and a few others. The 2 dose regiment of the mRNA vaccines are very effective against this variant, but unfortunately that takes time. Utah does not have enough time to vaccinate enough people to avoid this becoming widespread. However, much of their vulnerable population has been vaccinated, so the death toll should not be as bad as it would have been.

This variant is much more infectious. We have seen that in the past someone could isolate in their house and others in the house would not get infected with the alpha variant. However, UK data has shown us isolating in a house does not protect the others in the house against the delta variant, they are all getting infected. They should instead isolate alone, possibly a hotel.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Sparky on June 24, 2021, 08:47:10 am
Roper, I agree about teachers getting back to work. My county and city both went back to school full-time at the end of August with about 25% of our students still virtual. By November there was only about 2% of our students virtual. It was harder for the high schools -- sports teams and cheerleaders getting covid. But elementary schools had very few cases. My school had no students or teachers get covid from school contacts. Anyone who got covid at my school got it from spouses or family members who worked other places. I was the "virtual teacher" for the fifth graders at my school. I started with 11 students and ended the year with two. The others came back to regular school because they were failing the virtual work despite my tutoring. The last two were successful in some subjects (math, science), but totally stopped completing the reading lessons because they are weaker at reading and just didn't want to do them. Virtual learning doesn't work well at all. We need to get back to in-person learning for our children.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on June 25, 2021, 07:13:13 pm
My 15-year-old daughter got her second shot yesterday (Pfizer.) She went to her driver's ed class today even though she wasn't feeling very well this morning. I know...we didn't plan that out really well. Now, everyone in my family over 12 years old has been fully vaccinated.

In other news, I read a report on KSL that nearly all the COVID-19 hospitalizations in Utah are among the unvaccinated at this point.

Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on July 08, 2021, 12:02:12 am
I said the delta variant would be 40% of US cases by July 7th, but it has spread faster and by July 3rd it was over 50% of cases.

Despite the rise of the delta variant, in Washington state we are most concerned about the gamma variant. The alpha still causes most cases, and the delta is rising, too. However, most hospitalizations are from the gamma variant, and a big chunk of breakthrough cases after vaccination are from it.

The delta variant is going to spread through the lesser vaccinated parts of the country. Hopefully the elderly in those areas were vaccinated, as the vaccine is very effective against the delta. And the gamma variant may smolder at a low rate in the more vaccinated areas.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on July 08, 2021, 04:39:49 pm
Is there any good information about how deadly the various variants are, compared to the original?

I remember hearing from a couple of different sources last year, that when viruses begin to mutate, it's usually going to make it more contagious, but less deadly.  I don't know why that would be, but the same tidbit hit me from two different directions, both sources claiming to know a thing or two about epi/pandemic virology moving through populations across time.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on July 08, 2021, 08:13:33 pm
I don't have a direct answer, NT. Perhaps Jason has more information. I have heard from a number of sources that the mRNA vaccines provide good protection against the variants, as far as medical science has been able to determine.

And this: Krispy Kreme will give you a free glazed donut if you have your vaccine. I was near the Krispy Kreme in Orem today. Mmm...
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on July 08, 2021, 11:08:03 pm
The delta variant in the UK has had a different set of symptoms, headache, sore throat, and runny nose. Does that mean that the UK delta variant is becoming more cold like?  Maybe. I'd like to think so. It makes evolutionary sense for a disease to not kill off its hosts.

But, most of the people at risk of severe disease, hospitalization and dying have been vaccinated. The virus is mostly spreading among the young, unvaccinated people, so it will have a milder course, anyway.

Long Covid (symptoms greater than 12 weeks) are a concern, as they do not appear to be related to how severe of a case someone had. And there are some very concerning long covid syndromes, like chronic fatigue, which can be severe enough to put someone on disability.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on July 10, 2021, 10:45:57 pm
Tennessee Health Department is accused of “targeting our youth” (cuz “we know how impressionable our young people are”). Republican legislators threaten to defund health department if medical professionals continue promoting vaccination to teenagers.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/tennessee/articles/2021-07-09/report-officials-say-dont-aim-vaccine-information-at-teens

https://wpln.org/post/angered-by-youth-vaccine-promotion-tennessee-republicans-threaten-to-defund-health-department/

I don’t think those politicians have a durned thing to worry about, since Tennesseans aren’t exactly storming the clinics to get vaccinated (less than 38% fully vaccinated – similar to Utah, BTW). Compare that with 44% in neighboring Kentucky, 50% in California, 55% in New Mexico, & 66% in Vermont. And among California counties, fully vaxxed rates of 71% in Marin, 68% in San Francisco, 67% in Santa Clara, 66% in San Mateo, and 64% in Alameda. But then, the pandemic and vaccine have been treated as actual health matters by most folks here in the Bay Area.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Patty Rain on July 11, 2021, 05:38:20 pm
I heard that Utah has 70% of people over 18 being I think fully vaccinate.  With all the kids then numbers that measure all people won't tell the correct story.   When you account for kids do the numbers still work the same?
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on July 12, 2021, 01:09:34 am
For Utah:

44.5% of all Utahns have been fully vaccinated.
55% of Utahns over 12 have been fully vaccinated.

I got the info from the Utah Coronavirus dashboard here: https://coronavirus-dashboard.utah.gov/vaccines.html (https://coronavirus-dashboard.utah.gov/vaccines.html)

Here's the statistic I think is concerning: Of the 3,279,345 vaccines delivered to Utah, 2,902,020 have been administered. That's 377K vaccines in storage. Maybe those shots are waiting for people needing their second dose. I live in Utah. There is a lot of politically motivated resistance to the vaccine here. There are no problems with supply and/or access. It think the government needs to say,  "Okay. The vaccine has been available for four months. If you want it free, then you have two more months. After that, we're sending the vaccines to people who need and want them. If you want it in the future, you'll have to order it and pay for it yourself."
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jen on July 12, 2021, 02:18:50 am
Same in Idaho, roper.

My husband had his stake TR interview today, where he found out that one of the wards in our stake didn't meet this week because of a COVID-19 outbreak in the ward. But I'd say most people in our stake still don't think it's a big deal.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Enochscion on July 12, 2021, 11:08:52 am
Just got my first dose today. They had all three so they gave me the choice of which I wanted. The online registration said you wouldn't be able to choose, so I just avoided Jannsen since I'd heard it was less effective, and went with Moderna because the paper with it was physically closer to me and I don't remember hearing of any important differences between Moderna and Pfizer.

We're almost at 70% of adults on my island, and they just decided to add a raffle for weekly cash prizes and a free car to get the remaining 5k+ people needed for 80%. I was planning on going today anyway (just got a vehicle after a year of carlessness), but that's a nice little bonus possibility.

We don't really have the virus here because of the lock down procedures (they get positives on incoming travelers in quarantine every so often, but there have been very few cases on island). We have still been under masks and distancing and all of that stuff the whole time though. They're finally relaxing a bit on the masks in some places. Missionaries haven't been wearing masks for a few weeks now.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on July 12, 2021, 11:16:28 am
I just avoided Jannsen since I'd heard it was less effective, and went with Moderna because the paper with it was physically closer to me and I don't remember hearing of any important differences between Moderna and Pfizer.
High-five!  Go team Moderna!

Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Taalcon on July 12, 2021, 01:39:24 pm
Governonr Cox just acknowledged there was an oopsie (https://kjzz.com/news/local/department-of-health-cox-admit-error-in-vaccine-reporting-utah-officially-below-70-mark) in reporting that 70% number.

I heard that Utah has 70% of people over 18 being I think fully vaccinate.  With all the kids then numbers that measure all people won't tell the correct story.   When you account for kids do the numbers still work the same?
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on July 12, 2021, 11:20:19 pm
Quote
most of the people at risk of severe disease, hospitalization and dying have been vaccinated.

While this is partially true, this is a false generalization. While many vulnerable have been vaccinated, many of the most vulnerable are vulnerable because of cancer, auto-immune diseases/disorders, or other conditions in which case even if they have been vaccinated, their bodies haven't been producing the necessary antibodies necessary to fend off the disease. So a hefty segment of our most vulnerable, despite their best intentions and doing all the 'right' things, still rely on herd immunity.

And I can't help but give the anecdotal evidence of my far-right ward: the biggest protestors to pandemic precautions were the elderly and the vulnerable. The most ignorant and resistant to compliance were the vulnerable elderly. The first to stop wearing masks were the elderly and the vulnerable. And while I don't know for sure, I have a bad feeling that many of them didn't vaccinate, because most I see are of the mindset that the pandemic was a hyped-up political stunt to oust their Beloved Leader and make money for Bad and Selfish People, and they don't trust the MSM or Big Science.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on July 14, 2021, 11:33:10 am
While many vulnerable have been vaccinated, many of the most vulnerable are vulnerable because of cancer, auto-immune diseases/disorders, or other conditions in which case even if they have been vaccinated, their bodies haven't been producing the necessary antibodies necessary to fend off the disease. So a hefty segment of our most vulnerable, despite their best intentions and doing all the 'right' things, still rely on herd immunity.

This is true.  This is also not new.  Medically fragile and elderly people have been dying of flu and whatnot, by the tens of thousands in the US every year, forever.  The vaccine is a wonderful thing, but it's not a "get out of the inevitable end of our mortal probation free" card.

I'm not brushing aside how much worse COVID is from the flu.  A bad flu year kills maybe 60,000 Americans, and Covid seems to be around 5-8 times more deadly.  But in a lot of ways, now that there's a vaccine, the human desire to return to normal kicked into high gear, and people will just plain accept there's a new more deadly flu out there. 


Quote
And I can't help but give the anecdotal evidence of my far-right ward: the biggest protestors to pandemic precautions were the elderly and the vulnerable. The most ignorant and resistant to compliance were the vulnerable elderly. The first to stop wearing masks were the elderly and the vulnerable. And while I don't know for sure, I have a bad feeling that many of them didn't vaccinate, because most I see are of the mindset that the pandemic was a hyped-up political stunt to oust their Beloved Leader and make money for Bad and Selfish People, and they don't trust the MSM or Big Science.

I know endless folks like this, and I'm about 35% one myself.  I mean, not the conspiracy or ignorance, but the general attitude.

A story:
Right before the shutdown, I was having lunch with a bunch of cardiac patients in their '70's and '80's.  We were discussing COVID.  About half the table held a "don't care" attitude, the other half had a "bring it on" attitude.  Nobody was in denial about anything.   It dawned on me, these folks had an ever-increasing list of health risks and issues that would eventually kill them.  And they had an ever-shrinking list of things that made life enjoyable and worth living.  Getting old and decrepit and then dying, is a natural progression of all humanity that isn't killed off earlier in life.  And these folks had all accepted that.  Dying quickly of the flu held a certain appeal, to people who were facing down the prospect of a long wasting away disease, or expensive and humiliating hospice care. 

My response to COVID was a no-brainer.  Got a wife, my kids still need me, still growing my career, still have my health, still able to do service in my church, and I am still enjoying life.   Those folks had one, maybe two of those things left.  They did not fear death.  They did not want to suffer or make their loved ones suffer.   

It was a striking perspective that has stuck with me to this day.  There's a practical wisdom in some of these 'ignorant far-right compliance resisters'.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on July 14, 2021, 12:15:07 pm
I understand and agree that our culture in general fears and avoids death too much, and it hurts us in many ways.  And I have worked long-term with many elderly and/or disabled with similar attitudes.

But I have also seen a bit more when I work with them long-term, and in my own state of often wishing for death. The biggest thing is that we think death would be better, but very often, there is a terror and will to live that still kicks in, but often too late. There is also the fact that, for the most part, there are family members that will miss those vulnerable people far more than the vulnerable believe. Is it good for those family members to learn to let go and accept that death is a part of life? Yes. Is it unreasonable to do some extreme measures to extend life when quality is too low? Yes. But we still need to fight against the fading of the light. The fact that the Church specifically prohibits any kind of euthanasia is proof of this.

There are also a lot of factors that don't have to do with death. The number one being the long-haulers. I have a friend who is a long hauler. She was a healthy, vibrant, 35 year old who loved scuba diving with sharks. Now, her life has been nearly destroyed by the disabling long-haul symptoms. I have even seen some very vulnerable people, older and unhealthy, who survived it, and are the worse for it. Then there is the fact that every person who gets this is a petri dish in which the virus can mutate into more deadly and more contagious strains.
It's not just about 'letting' people die who might welcome it. It's far more than that. Is that worth refusing vaccination and refusing to wear masks? I don't think so.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on July 14, 2021, 01:31:20 pm
we think death would be better, but very often, there is a terror and will to live that still kicks in, but often too late.
I've heard this from multiple folks in the medical and end-of-life care fields.  "Folks have all sorts of advance directives and do-not-resuscitate orders.  And yet every time  they come to us conscious on a gurney, and we explain the risks of what we're going to do, and ask them if they still want us to honor their DNR, to this day not a single person has said 'yes'."

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There is also the fact that, for the most part, there are family members that will miss those vulnerable people far more than the vulnerable believe. Is it good for those family members to learn to let go and accept that death is a part of life? Yes. Is it unreasonable to do some extreme measures to extend life when quality is too low? Yes. But we still need to fight against the fading of the light. The fact that the Church specifically prohibits any kind of euthanasia is proof of this.
This honestly has nothing to do with COVID.  It's a part of the human condition, going on around us everywhere, all the time.   It's just we have all spent a year thinking/talking/legislating about it, and we're more able to see where others sit on the issue by what's on their face. 

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Then there is the fact that every person who gets this is a petri dish in which the virus can mutate into more deadly and more contagious strains.
Again, humans have always been petri dishes in which viruses can mutate into different strains, ever since we left the garden of Eden.  This is literally, never not true.

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It's not just about 'letting' people die who might welcome it. It's far more than that. Is that worth refusing vaccination and refusing to wear masks? I don't think so.
I appreciate and respect your opinion.  Let's be very careful about all that talk about 'letting' someone else exercise their agency, because we disagree with them and think they may bring harm on themselves and others.  I was thrilled to hear Colorado's governor lifted the state of emergency a little while ago, and ended every single statewide order and mandate.   I think our rates of suicide, domestic abuse, divorce, mental illness, and addiction, that had spiked terribly high in the last year, should start slowly going back down to pre-pandemic levels. Now everyone needs to get back to work before inflation turns into stagflation and millions start hurting.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on July 16, 2021, 03:16:33 pm
Let's be very careful about all that talk about 'letting' someone else exercise their agency, because we disagree with them and think they may bring harm on themselves and others.  ...  I think our rates of suicide, domestic abuse, divorce, mental illness, and addiction, that had spiked terribly high in the last year, should start slowly going back down to pre-pandemic levels. Now everyone needs to get back to work before inflation turns into stagflation and millions start hurting.

Amen, brother.

Putting all the procedures in place to mitigate the spread of Coronavirus in school--that was a challenge. A far bigger challenge is dealing with grownups who have been sitting at home with nothing to do, so they turn their attention to how the school should change to be in lockstep with their own political convictions, and then they write endless confrontational emails to me. I have work to do. Hopefully, they also will soon have work to do.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on July 17, 2021, 09:27:10 pm
I still stand by my statement that most of the people at risk of severe disease have been vaccinated, as the largest group of vulnerable people are the elderly, and they have outstanding vaccination levels. But as Dyany and N3uroTypical have pointed out, there is still a substantial number of immunocompromised people and others who are unable to get vaccinated or produce antibodies when vaccinated. Even if this group is not the largest percentage of vulnerable, they are probably the current most important to consider when wondering whether a young, healthy person should get the vaccine. Protecting this group is where the Libertarian philosophy would consider mandatory vaccinations an appropriate action, as the Libertarian believes that ones individual right to punch into the air ends when the fist reaches someone else's nose, and spreading infectious diseases to people who cannot protect themselves is punching them in the nose. I would encourage everyone who does not have a physical contraindication to get the vaccine.

The Delta Variant is spreading through the United States very rapidly. We are a few weeks behind the UK's delta variant experience, and our graphs will likely closely mimic them. This week every one of the 50 US states had a rise in Covid cases. Areas with high unvaccinated rates will be hit the hardest. Vaccinated people will also test positive, and some may even be hospitalized, though overall they will tend to have less severe disease. As a percentage of positive tests, hospitalizations and deaths will be less this wave than last winter, but with the sheer number of positive cases, there may be strain on the health care system in some areas.

The increases will happen just in time for school to start, which will give fodder to the teachers to try to shut down schools again for another year. I think my school district will have enough backbone this year to have my soon to be first grader attend in person, but I worry about the others.

Long Covid is now more fully being recognized as a real problem. King's College is seeing 1-2% of positive cases of people in their 20s and 30s will develop long Covid, and perhaps 5% of people in their 60s. From a news source I listened to today, there are over 300,000 people in the UK who have had long-Covid symptoms for over 12 months. That is a lot of long term disability.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on July 22, 2021, 02:17:18 am
Myanmar is potentily going to have a huge death toll within the next few months. There was a recent military coup with a resultant collapse of their health care system. It is estimated that 50% of their population will contract Covid within the next several weeks, and with no health care and no oxygen, up to 5% of those people will die. Population 55 million. That could be 1.3 million deaths over the next 2 months.

Edit to add that this information was from John Campbell, who gives daily updates on Covid. It looks like he got his information from the Asia Times News site, but he also said he had a few contacts from within Myanmar. 
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on July 26, 2021, 01:12:02 am
New information on why the Delta variant is so much more contagious. It has vastly increased the amount of viral particles it forces one to produce. The viral load is 1200 times greater. Every cough, every sneeze, every fricative spews 1200 X more virus into droplets and aerosols. We know that viral load is a big factor in infection. That is why a short pass in the hallway was less risky than a long face to face conversation. With 1200 X more virus being produced, I wouldn't be surprised if even school children start becoming vectors. Previously their breaths, coughs, and sneezes were not large enough to transfer enough viral particles, but now it is 1200 X easier.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on July 26, 2021, 11:17:21 am
Fortunately, once vaccinated, chances of getting a breakthrough infection are low, and the health risks seem to be quite close to zero.  As far as I can tell, it's too early to see if Delta is following the usual progression of contagious viruses by being more easily transmissible but less harmful.   But one hopeful data point, is that unvaccinated children that are now getting the delta variant, remain pretty much totally out of hospitals and morgues. At rates at least as favorable as when infected with the original strain.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on July 29, 2021, 12:06:13 am
Vaccinated people are protected very well against breakthrough infections with the original Coronavirus, as well as the alpha (UK) variant. But vaccinated people are testing positive for the delta variant and some governments are reconsidering mask mandates. Is anyone confused? This may be a long post, but it will explain my understanding of the science behind this.

The measles vaccine is a "sterile" vaccine, meaning that once vaccinated, one will never get measles. It is like a layer of shellac. Measles is a respiratory virus, possibly the most infectious one we know of. However, it requires some transmission through the blood to cause an infection, and antibodies are readily available in the blood, which prevents an infection from being established.

The coronavirus is different. It causes its infection in the lungs, so does not need to go into the blood. Lung antibodies (IgA) are not like a layer of shellac. Typically it takes the immune system 7-10 days to begin to mount an antibody response against a novel (never before seen) infection, by which time there is a much bigger fight and significantly more damage has already taken place.

It takes the original coronavirus an average of 6 days to produce enough new virus to become positive on a PCR test, what we might call the incubation period. At this point the infection is destroying lung tissue.

The vaccine works by priming the immune system so that if the coronavirus gets into the lungs, the antibody production goes into high gear right away, so that by day 6 (which is when the original coronavirus would have become positive on a PCR test) the virus has been wiped out. Minimal damage has occurred. No PCR test will ever test positive. They likely never knew that their bodies were fighting off the coronavirus, but this is not a "sterile" vaccination like with measles.

There are two big differences with the delta variant than the other corona viruses. 1. It has a much shorter incubation period of 3.7 days to be positive on a PCR test rather than 6 days. 2. It produces over 1200 times more viral particles at the time it is first detected. 3.7 days might not be enough time for the already primed immune system to wipe out this enormous viral load, so some vaccinated people are going to test positive. They might become infectious to others. This might even be enough viral load for children to become infected and infectious.

But since the vaccinated people's immune system is primed, the immune response starts working very fast and they still have very high levels of protection against severe disease, hospitalization, and death. Even with the delta variant so prevalent, and some vaccinated people testing positive, the unvaccinated are still over 99% of those who are being hospitalized and dying. Vaccinations are still highly recommended.

Because the delta might cause vaccinated individuals to have a mild case, they might still be infectious to others. Therefore masking of vaccinated individuals might make sense when indoors in areas of high community transmission. It is better to avoid the virus than to have to rely on one's immune system fight it off.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Taalcon on July 29, 2021, 08:28:20 am
Thanks, Jason.

It's frustrating and maddening how many see the news about the variant, hear new advice and guidelines for managing it, and then without any thought or research, just declare, "This doesn't make any sense, they just keep changing their stance. We should just ignore this, it's all politics".

Maybe if this information was presented in an easy-to-watch video and narrated by one of their favorite news anchors or politicians, we might actually be able to make some progress in containing this.

As it stands, those who have been diligent in inconveniencing themselves to follow safety protocols and guidelines for the past year+ will once again continue to do so, and those who have not will continue to not do so, thus keeping the problem going, and also at the same time trying to make it harder for others to be able to implement policies that will lead to further mitigation. Utah (and other states) have passed a state law outlawing schools to have mask mandates, even as key local counties within those states are trying to implement them to follow protocols and guidelines.

It's just all so, so frustrating.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on August 02, 2021, 10:07:42 am
As it stands, those who have been diligent in inconveniencing themselves to follow safety protocols and guidelines for the past year+ will once again continue to do so, and those who have not will continue to not do so, thus keeping the problem going, and also at the same time trying to make it harder for others to be able to implement policies that will lead to further mitigation. Utah (and other states) have passed a state law outlawing schools to have mask mandates, even as key local counties within those states are trying to implement them to follow protocols and guidelines.

It's just all so, so frustrating.

Let me start by saying I get it.  It can be incredibly frustrating when humans don't behave in ways you want them to behave.  In ways someone thinks they should behave.  In ways someone thinks they would behave, if only they were smart enough, or educated enough, or mandated through government legislation enough, or peer pressured enough.  I spend way too much of my life, frustrated by the behavior of other people.

That said, I've been following the ins and outs of deadly pandemics from a hobby-prepper perspective, for three decades.  And while I have certainly not avoided frustration at human behavior, I haven't been surprised by anything I've seen in the last 20 months.  Back in the mid-'90's, I was reading folks who specialize in how viruses move through human populations.  They already knew what I'm guessing lots of folks still need to accept: Public policy can only accomplish so much.  Peer pressure can only go so far.  Humans will act like humans - you can bet your life on it, and the lives of your loved ones. 

And that means whenever some deadly pandemic shows up, you'll have a wide range of reactions.   Some folks will occasionally need to add a capful of bleach to their bath water before they can relax.  Some folks will say to themselves "if only people would X more and Y less, we would save lives".  Some folks will peer resentfully over their masks and through their windows, at members of the public who are Not Behaving Appropriately.  Some folks will mock random strangers for wearing the nanny-state's mouth diaper, and get themselves tossed out of the Chipotle.  Some folks will say "If I'm sick I'll stay home, and if I die I'll die", and not give it a second thought.  Human reactions will always be a range.  And through it all, politicians will act in ways that enhance their political power, and increase their odds of winning the next election.  When the cameras are off, their behavior will also follow human behavior.  My always-growing list of hypocritical left-leaning politicians, who fight for public health mandates, and then participate in activities which openly violate their public comments, belongs in the political thread.  But even their behavior proves the point - public policy can only do so much - it's true even if you're a public policy maker.

Yep, Humans will act like humans - you can bet your life on it, and the lives of your loved ones.  And you should bet your life on it.  As I keep having to remind myself, when I get frustrated at human behavior that shouldn't surprise me, I'm wasting time and energy.  I might as well be one of y'all that think we're only one step away from humans altering their human behavior.  Just one better health order, one more easy-to-watch video, one more popular celebrity showing up on TikTok to urge people to X, and then suddenly humans won't act like humans any more, and we'll end the pandemic, and everything will be fine.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Hobbes on August 02, 2021, 12:15:13 pm
My opinion that absolutely no one asked for: the FDA should remove the emergency use authorization (making it just approved), every entity that can should require vaccinations, and the CDC should stop pretending it's the center for disease control and realize what it's actually good at is to act as a clearinghouse for research and free us up to have an actual disease control body.

A mask you have to wear all the time in public, indoor spaces for months (and let's face it, maybe longer?) is way more invasive than one to two shots, and pretending that it's not is admitting you kind of agree with the anti-vacc arguments (pre and post covid). France of all places required vaccines for a lot of activities and there was a huge outcry, but also an enormous percentage of their population that had been refusing to get vaccinated got or is getting vaccinated.

And the arguments against approving the vaccine seem dumb too. It will be approved in September now that we've made it a high priority? Ignoring the insanity that it wasn't already a high priority, if we're going to approve it in September, why not approve it now? Is it safe and everyone should get it, or is it not? If the former why are we waiting? If the latter, then why aren't we telling people that? And if the answer to either or both questions is: "public perception" then we should pick up our socks and boots and go home because, what the heck? Do we actually have any evidence that we have even the slightest clue what "public perception" will mean or be or do? Everyone has guesses, but who cares? If the science actually says it's safe then we should do that and start implementing vaccine requirements. If it's not safe then we should tell people. This is like the dumb: "maks might save you but we're worried we won't have enough so we'll just tell me that they don't work or give confused messages on them and then no one will trust us ever again and we can abandon the high-ground following the science" all over again.

Not that I'm emotional about it or anything...
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Hobbes on August 02, 2021, 12:17:18 pm
Also, I've been meaning to tell you, NT: thank-you for being in the vaccine trial. I'm glad so many people volunteered for it (including all the follow-up testing and what not) so that I could get vaccinated. I got a different one (J&J, and then got the Pfizer as a booster) but that's immaterial.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on August 02, 2021, 04:11:21 pm
Hobbes, I have heard rumor that a booster of Pfizer might be suggested for those who had the J&J. What was your experience? Any type of reaction at all?  Was there any problem at the pharmacy (or wherever) when you told them you already had the J&J or is this just becoming a common thing to do?
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Hobbes on August 02, 2021, 04:34:55 pm
They will not and can not give it to you if you have had another vaccine, and despite mounting evidence that the J&J is good against Delta, but not as good as the mRNA, and that the single shot variety can be significantly improved (as good as or better than the full course of the mRNAs) by a booster: it is not recommended by the CDC and thus can not be issued. So, sadly, I had to lie. Which is not really my bag, but seemed (and seems) worth it. You can either lie and say you haven't had a shot, or lie and say you've had only your first shot (of either Pfizer or Moderna) but it requires a lie. I don't know if there's anyway to check but I don't think anyone is, or issuing consequences if they do (not even sure what the absolute worst they could do is, but I imagine something?)

In terms of side effects, I had a mildly sore arm for 2 days, and about 24 hours after I got the shot, I was just totally wiped out for 2-3 hours. This is very similar to the side effects I had with the J&J.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on August 03, 2021, 12:44:11 am
It can be incredibly frustrating when humans don't behave in ways you want them to behave.  In ways someone thinks they should behave.  In ways someone thinks they would behave, if only they were smart enough, or educated enough, or mandated through government legislation enough, or peer pressured enough.  I spend way too much of my life, frustrated by the behavior of other people.

I have no problem with people behaving like idiots. Until they hurt other people or put them in danger. Especially if those other people are my family members and friends. Then I have a big problem with their behavior.

In other news, I see that more employers are starting to require vaccinations. Good.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on August 03, 2021, 11:10:23 am
I have no problem with people behaving like idiots. Until they hurt other people or put them in danger. Especially if those other people are my family members and friends. Then I have a big problem with their behavior.
Same.  But what does that have to do with not getting the vaccination?  (Yes, this is a trick question meant to bring lots of discussion.  I wanna watch people try to walk through it, and maybe point some things out.)

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In other news, I see that more employers are starting to require vaccinations. Good.
I'm in full support of incentivizing the shot, Kroeger handing out gift cards when you get a shot, employers handing out money to employees willing to prove vaccination.   That sort of thing.  I am less excited about required vaccinations, but I understand the reasoning.  And at the end of the day, we lost the Obamacare fight, and have zero chance of winning a fight over what employers and private property owners can enforce on their own property.  And no, such things are not hipaa violations unless someone screws up the recordkeeping.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on August 03, 2021, 12:36:46 pm
Libertarians generally believe that the right to punch a fist stops at the tip of someone else's nose. Spreading communicable diseases when there is an effective means to not spread it is punching someone else in the nose. Defiantly not getting vaccinated and then going about society with immunocompromised people, like the elderly, those with cancers, etc, is the same as wildly swinging one's arms through the air around people who are unable to duck.
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Hobbes wrote: They will not and can not give it to you if you have had another vaccine, and despite mounting evidence that the J&J is good against Delta, but not as good as the mRNA, and that the single shot variety can be significantly improved (as good as or better than the full course of the mRNAs) by a booster: it is not recommended by the CDC and thus can not be issued.
As the immune response progresses the body develops slightly different antibodies. B cells that produce more specific antibodies for the target antigen move forward, and B cells that are less specific are eliminated. A booster enhances that specificity even more, as well as enhancing the permanence of the T cells.

From what I have read, the Pfizer, Moderna, and J&J vaccines target slightly different spots on the spike protein. If they are different enough, this means that a second dose from a different vaccine would not enhance specificity, but might instead create a new antibody response. So now someone would have the equivalent of 2 first shots rather than a first and second shot.

It is unknown if this "broad spectrum" approach is better than the "more specific" approach. From my understanding, if I were getting a different vaccine, I would want it to be more specific for a new variant. If I am going to sacrifice the enhanced specificity of a booster, then I would want it at least to be more tailored for the current strains that are circulating. 

Some countries are doing experiments by mixing different vaccines, so we should have some answers to the effectiveness of mixing vaccines within the next several months.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on August 03, 2021, 01:31:54 pm
Spreading communicable diseases when there is an effective means to not spread it is punching someone else in the nose. Defiantly not getting vaccinated and then going about society with immunocompromised people, like the elderly, those with cancers, etc, is the same as wildly swinging one's arms through the air around people who are unable to duck.

What do immunocompromised people have to do with getting the COVID vaccine?

Here's what the CDC says about it: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/clinical-considerations/covid-19-vaccines-us.html
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The currently FDA-authorized COVID-19 vaccines are not live vaccines and therefore can be safely administered to immunocompromised people, including people with HIV infection or other immunocompromising conditions or people who take immunosuppressive medications or therapies. Although COVID-19 vaccine efficacy is unknown in these groups, immunocompromised people might be at increased risk for severe COVID-19, and the potential benefit of COVID-19 vaccination outweighs the uncertainties.

Immunocompromised people have the same choice as anyone else - get vaccinated or not.  For those who choose not to, that's like people who can't duck, walking through a public park, where people are holding a "wildly swinging our arms through the air" convention.

The principle of agency dictates that folks with a choice get to own the consequences of their choices.   Immunocompromised people who "don't wanna" or "are afraid to" get vaccinated, are the folks making the choice about whether they can duck or not.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jen on August 03, 2021, 03:44:40 pm
My 10-year-olds don't have a choice and at least partially  have to rely on others to keep them safe.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jen on August 03, 2021, 03:45:50 pm
I'm trying not to get caught up in media-driven hysteria, but what I'm hearing about the lambda variety has me a little freaked out.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jana at Jade House on August 04, 2021, 12:49:55 am
I personally know of a case where steroid treatment caused low immune response. While it  might be safe for immunocompromised to take the jabs, it seems not so sure what the response will be. Hence the booster discussion.
In the meantime time, I will gladly mask so I am not a vector for the less fortunate.

This is not virtue signalling. This is part of my covenant to help hands that hang down.
Yes, I imagine it feels like imposition to some.
But for me, personally, I worry more about standing at the judgement bar trying to defend myself. seriously eternal stuff.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on August 04, 2021, 09:03:14 am
Immunocompromised means that their immune systems may not mount an immune response. They remain vulnerable despite being vaccinated. Thus others should be vaccinated to protect the immunocompromised.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jana at Jade House on August 04, 2021, 09:37:10 am
Agreed.  Thus, those that are vaccinated should practice good public health mitigation until all eligible persons everywhere are jabbed.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on August 04, 2021, 06:18:46 pm
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Jason: Spreading communicable diseases when there is an effective means to not spread it is punching someone else in the nose. Defiantly not getting vaccinated and then going about society with immunocompromised people, like the elderly, those with cancers, etc, is the same as wildly swinging one's arms through the air around people who are unable to duck.
Neuro: What do immunocompromised people have to do with getting the COVID vaccine?
Jason: Immunocompromised means that their immune systems may not mount an immune response. They remain vulnerable despite being vaccinated. Thus others should be vaccinated to protect the immunocompromised.

I agree.  Folks should be vaccinated to protect themselves, those within their stewardships, and everyone else.   But not everyone will.  I mean yes, it will be nice when we all are in the afterlife, and everyone does what they should.  But here in the mortal plane, the valley of sorrow, the place of agency, where people are free to chose for themselves, the rules will always be different.  Again, no matter what should happen, we live in a world where social policy/laws/peer pressure/bullying will never be totally effective.  Given this reality, it is reasonable for immunocompromised people to take responsibility for themselves.  And it is unreasonable to pretend that we can urge/incentivize/pressure/force everyone to get the vaccination.   We can still make strong statements using the word "should", but we "shouldn't" be in denial about what's going to happen.  Reference my earlier statements about betting your lives on humans acting like humans.  It's good advice for folks like me, who posses three separate high-risk categories for this virus.

My 10-year-olds don't have a choice and at least partially  have to rely on others to keep them safe.
Oh this one is easy and comforting.  Your 10 year olds are pretty much bulletproof from the adverse impacts of COVID.  Whether they catch it or not, they are already pretty safe from it.  It's totally unwarranted to force an unwanted medical procedure on a free people, to protect a group that doesn't need protection.  Now, take polio and other preventable diseases that work over children, and my answer of course changes.  But for COVID, kids are pretty safe.  Like "similar odds of drowning in a swimming pool" kind of safe.



Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on August 04, 2021, 07:14:22 pm
Yeah...all those pesky things called laws which protect other people by limiting my unbridled use of agency... ::)
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jen on August 04, 2021, 08:16:46 pm
More kids are getting sick with the Delta variant and they're getting sicker than the original virus made them. "It's not that bad" is the kind of anti-vax argument that made me unfollow my SIL from all social media. (With respect, because I like her.. and I like you, too... I just don't like that kind of glib dismissal of real facts.)

Someone at my husband's office was diagnosed with the Delta variant today, so that's awesome.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on August 05, 2021, 11:21:44 am
Yeah...all those pesky things called laws which protect other people by limiting my unbridled use of agency... ::)
Yep, we seem to be moving ahead with increased efforts on all our fronts.  Incentives are ramped up - everything from million dollar lotteries, to employers paying people to get vaccinated, to businesses offering perks.  Governments and employers are toying with making proof of vaccination mandatory in various ways.  Even in horribly racist ways that come down disproportionately on minorities, like NYC's mandate requiring proof to access indoor dining - which effectively bans 80% of African Americans and Hispanics from eating in a restaurant.  One hopes this law will motivate NY's minority communities to step up and be vaccinated.  How well do you think it'll work?  (Source: https://covid19vaccine.health.ny.gov/vaccine-demographic-data)

Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on August 05, 2021, 11:22:04 am
More kids are getting sick with the Delta variant and they're getting sicker than the original virus made them. "It's not that bad" is the kind of anti-vax argument that made me unfollow my SIL from all social media. (With respect, because I like her.. and I like you, too... I just don't like that kind of glib dismissal of real facts.)
Heh.  And "The sky is falling" is the kind of [insert thinly veiled insult here] argument that makes me frustrated with [insert personal anecdote about frustrating relative here].  I suppose it's time for a link war.  Hey Jen - why do you believe kids are getting sicker with the Delta variant than original COVID?  Here is my list of seemingly-reputable links that believe otherwise:

August 3: https://health.clevelandclinic.org/delta-variant-and-children/
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“Generally speaking, children who become infected with COVID-19 have very mild symptoms if they have any of all. It’s been rare to see a child get very ill from COVID-19 regardless of the strain. So far, it does not appear that the delta strain has caused more severe illness in children even though it’s highly transmittable and much more contagious. But we certainly need to keep a close watch since this situation is constantly evolving.” - Pediatric infectious disease specialist Camille Sabella, MD

Yesterday: https://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/delta-vaccinated-parents-people-kids-12-need-know-rcna1590
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It's not yet well understood if the delta variant is more dangerous for young children, or if kids are more susceptible to this strain compared to others who are unvaccinated

July 22: https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2021/07/22/covid-delta-variant-children/
This is an interesting article, which asks "How dangerous is the delta variant for children?", and then states "An internal CDC document obtained by The Washington Post July 29 said it is “likely” that the delta variant causes more severe illness than previous variants."
But when you look at the source it cites (another Washington Post article), there is nothing about children.  The closest we have is this:
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One of the slides states that there is a higher risk among older age groups for hospitalization and death relative to younger people, regardless of vaccination status.

Yesterday: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/07/17/1017075240/delta-variant-is-spreading-fast-and-new-cases-are-rising-is-time-to-mask-up-agai
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It's possible that children who get infected with the delta variant might have more symptoms than they would if they were infected with an earlier version of the virus. With a more transmissible variant, "when someone gets sick, they tend to have more virus, and they tend to have more symptoms," Chu explains.

That being said, Chu says, typically "children are not that symptomatic from COVID." Her best guess? She thinks delta "probably will not lead to significant numbers of children getting hospitalized."

Ok, Jen, your turn.  Please substantiate your claim that kids are "getting sicker than the original virus made them".

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Someone at my husband's office was diagnosed with the Delta variant today, so that's awesome.
Seems to only be a problem for the unvaccinated.  For vaccinated folks, the Delta variant seems to be much closer to the seasonal flu in dangerousness.  For kids, other than hand-wringing and sneering at anti-vaxxers, it appears to be more of a giant nothingburger (Jen's convincing response pending.)

Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on August 05, 2021, 03:25:16 pm
In Florida children are getting infected with the delta variant more frequently than with the previous variants. In addition pediatric hospitalizations and ICU admissions are increasing significantly. I suspect that the increase in transmission among children is due to the increased viral load.

We have yet to see if the 1-3 month post viral syndromes are going to be significant. I suspect they will occur at the usual rates following viral illnesses like this, but since there are now 10s of thousands of pediatric infections, there will be thousands of long term complications.

The increased transmissibility among children as well as the known long term side effects is tilting the risk benefit calculations of vaccinating younger people toward getting the vaccine.

The current wave of infections is mostly being fed by the unvaccinated, which spills over into the general population. While this wave is likely going to peak at the end of August, it is difficult to say if it will be a precipitous decline, like in the UK, or if the start of school will supply a steady stream of new infections that causes the wave to only slowly decline with a long tail.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jen on August 05, 2021, 07:50:48 pm
I concede that I wasn't weighing the stats carefully enough. More kids are getting really sick because more kids are getting sick, but maybe it's proportionately the same. Either way, it means my unvaccinated kids are at higher risk and I'm worried. Mock if you will. I don't understand the need to push back so hard on that.

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(Jen's convincing response pending.)

Maybe it's just that I'm so tired of all of it, like everyone else, but I used to feel like we had at very least a friendly acquaintanceship... so your tone toward me is bumming me out. Just adding to the general feeling of being bummed out by how the last year+ could have been an opportunity to learn to better serve and love each other that we (as a world) have thrown away.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on August 06, 2021, 10:35:24 am
Jen, I apologize for my tone.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on August 07, 2021, 01:37:47 pm
I like Mike Rowe’d comments.
 https://www.facebook.com/TheRealMikeRowe/posts/4554322871244487 (https://www.facebook.com/TheRealMikeRowe/posts/4554322871244487)
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Patty Rain on August 08, 2021, 12:20:04 am
Vaccinated people are protected very well against breakthrough infections with the original Coronavirus, as well as the alpha (UK) variant. But vaccinated people are testing positive for the delta variant and some governments are reconsidering mask mandates. Is anyone confused? This may be a long post, but it will explain my understanding of the science behind this.

The measles vaccine is a "sterile" vaccine, meaning that once vaccinated, one will never get measles. It is like a layer of shellac. Measles is a respiratory virus, possibly the most infectious one we know of. However, it requires some transmission through the blood to cause an infection, and antibodies are readily available in the blood, which prevents an infection from being established.

The coronavirus is different. It causes its infection in the lungs, so does not need to go into the blood. Lung antibodies (IgA) are not like a layer of shellac. Typically it takes the immune system 7-10 days to begin to mount an antibody response against a novel (never before seen) infection, by which time there is a much bigger fight and significantly more damage has already taken place.

It takes the original coronavirus an average of 6 days to produce enough new virus to become positive on a PCR test, what we might call the incubation period. At this point the infection is destroying lung tissue.

The vaccine works by priming the immune system so that if the coronavirus gets into the lungs, the antibody production goes into high gear right away, so that by day 6 (which is when the original coronavirus would have become positive on a PCR test) the virus has been wiped out. Minimal damage has occurred. No PCR test will ever test positive. They likely never knew that their bodies were fighting off the coronavirus, but this is not a "sterile" vaccination like with measles.

There are two big differences with the delta variant than the other corona viruses. 1. It has a much shorter incubation period of 3.7 days to be positive on a PCR test rather than 6 days. 2. It produces over 1200 times more viral particles at the time it is first detected. 3.7 days might not be enough time for the already primed immune system to wipe out this enormous viral load, so some vaccinated people are going to test positive. They might become infectious to others. This might even be enough viral load for children to become infected and infectious.

But since the vaccinated people's immune system is primed, the immune response starts working very fast and they still have very high levels of protection against severe disease, hospitalization, and death. Even with the delta variant so prevalent, and some vaccinated people testing positive, the unvaccinated are still over 99% of those who are being hospitalized and dying. Vaccinations are still highly recommended.

Because the delta might cause vaccinated individuals to have a mild case, they might still be infectious to others. Therefore masking of vaccinated individuals might make sense when indoors in areas of high community transmission. It is better to avoid the virus than to have to rely on one's immune system fight it off.

So if I can't seem to get immunity from the measles vax (tested several times and then get yet another booster) does this mean I have good odds that the covid vax actually worked?
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on August 09, 2021, 09:24:03 am
I'm just here to offer some anecdotal perspective:
My brother is nearly 40, his wife younger. Both in excellent health, though my brother has a genetic tendency towards HBP. They have 4 kids, the oldest of whom doesn't turn 12 for a few weeks.
They lived most of the last year in Hawaii (my SIL is from there), where COVID safety measures are very strict. When they were eligible for shots, they got them--my brother the J&J and his wife, the Pfizer. None of the kids are eligible yet.
A little over a month ago, they moved back to Utah, where vaccination rates are much lower, rules are far less strict, and COVID-deniers, antivaxxers, and outright selfish people are in far higher numbers than in Hawaii.
So, nearly 2 weeks ago, my nephews got sick with COVID. REALLY sick. Not hospitalization sick, but enough that his 11 yo still gets scared about sensations in his lungs.
Yeah, "it doesn't hit kids as bad" is worthless when you see little kids you love get so sick that they are terrified.
They weren't told if the strain they had was the Delta variant or not, but the viral load in the household with 4 littles--despite a very clean home--was more than the J&J vaccine in my brother could handle, and he eventually got very sick, too. Worse than any flu. It took nearly a week after that for my SIL (who had the Pfizer vaccine, remember) to come down with it. She has fared better than the rest.
I shudder to think of how sick they would have been without the vaccines. My brother would likely have been hospitalized and, with the HBP, could easily have died.
But I'm also extremely angry with the people who refuse to get vaccinated, refuse to wear masks (as mask-wearing by the receiver isn't nearly as effective as mask-wearing by the spreader), and refuse to follow safety protocols, which fuel the spread of the disease, foster more and more variants, and end up killing people through their selfish whininess. They will not be held guiltless at the last day.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on August 09, 2021, 06:01:05 pm
I remember like 12 years ago, my wife and I both got the flu, quite bad.   Our kids were like 4 and 7 at the time, and they had to learn how to feed each other.  We were stuck in bed, each of us alternating between sweats and chills, occasionally shivering our way to the toilet.  Whoever was lucid at the time gave instructions to the kids.  I think both of us lost like 5 lbs from the ordeal.  The kids were troopers, and never caught it.

I'm grateful the vaccine is doing a great job of putting COVID into the category of "Probably nothing, maybe mild symptoms, very rarely serious symptoms, almost never a hospital stay, and pretty much zero deaths."

Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on August 09, 2021, 09:15:19 pm
So if I can't seem to get immunity from the measles vax (tested several times and then get yet another booster) does this mean I have good odds that the covid vax actually worked?
You have gotten the measles vaccine, and have been tested to see if you have antibodies, and the test comes back that you do not have measles antibodies? Have you been tested for antibodies to other things against which you have been vaccinated? If you have trouble making a lasting immune response against different things, then you may have one of the many types of immunodeficiencies. You would be one of those who is dependent on the "herd immunity" from other people for all sorts of communicable diseases.

I do not know how you would fare with the covid vaccine. It might work differently on you than others.

I guess it could be possible that your parents never actually got you vaccinated in the first place and just led you to believe otherwise.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Taalcon on August 12, 2021, 02:39:24 pm
Most direct yet. https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/first-presidency-message-covid-19-august-2021?fbclid=IwAR1gWnTfbdZr9IMU2PbEqKRFt1pcq6U1_n1GdsknZk3xeRS6Yn8D6j2Z378

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The First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints sent the following message on Thursday, August 12, 2021, to Church members around the world:

Dear Brothers and Sisters:

We find ourselves fighting a war against the ravages of COVID-19 and its variants, an unrelenting pandemic. We want to do all we can to limit the spread of these viruses. We know that protection from the diseases they cause can only be achieved by immunizing a very high percentage of the population.

To limit exposure to these viruses, we urge the use of face masks in public meetings whenever social distancing is not possible. To provide personal protection from such severe infections, we urge individuals to be vaccinated. Available vaccines have proven to be both safe and effective.

We can win this war if everyone will follow the wise and thoughtful recommendations of medical experts and government leaders. Please know of our sincere love and great concern for all of God’s children.

The First Presidency

Russell M. Nelson
Dallin H. Oaks
Henry B. Eyring
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on August 12, 2021, 10:38:39 pm
Quote from: Jana at Jade House

In the meantime time, I will gladly mask so I am not a vector for the less fortunate.
This is not virtue signalling. This is part of my covenant to help hands that hang down.
And even for those who have not made such a covenant, it is simply part of their responsibility as humans who want to live in a society where there are other living beings that can be affected by what they do,

If some people's individual freedoms are more important to them than the well-being of those around them, & they feel no duty to protect anyone else, they should consider being hermits.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on August 12, 2021, 10:39:53 pm
Tell it like it is, Doctor Nelson! 👍
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on August 13, 2021, 12:05:57 am
To limit exposure to these viruses, we urge the use of face masks in public meetings whenever social distancing is not possible.

The First Presidency

It will be interesting to see how this gets implemented in my stake...
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on August 13, 2021, 11:14:02 am
I can already hear my ward's excuses. "Social distancing is POSSIBLE (even though we refuse to do it), so we can securely ignore that counsel and feel that we're obedient."
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on August 13, 2021, 01:35:39 pm
If some people's individual freedoms are more important to them than the well-being of those around them, & they feel no duty to protect anyone else, they should consider being hermits.
Where do you draw the line?
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jen on August 13, 2021, 04:39:31 pm
My bishop (bless him, he has really tried to shepherd us through all of this) just emailed. He quoted the announcement from yesterday and encouraged us to follow their urging, but didn't say they're asking us to mask up again. He said to pray about it and do what feels right for your family... which I'm sad to say means most won't mask up. We do have permission to have the Sacrament at home if we don't feel comfortable at church.

I just don't understand why the people who don't feel comfortable wearing a mask and distancing can't be the ones to stay home.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on August 13, 2021, 07:15:18 pm
If some people's individual freedoms are more important to them than the well-being of those around them, & they feel no duty to protect anyone else, they should consider being hermits.
Where do you draw the line?

Personally, my line is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY beyond something as simple and easy as wearing masks, handwashing, and getting a couple of free shots.

I mean, I deal with anxiety and depression and numerous health issues. I'm an extrovert who really needs social interaction. But dammit, I'm also not selfish and I've learned not to be such a flippin' wuss!
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on August 14, 2021, 12:46:26 am
If some people's individual freedoms are more important to them than the well-being of those around them, & they feel no duty to protect anyone else, they should consider being hermits.
Where do you draw the line?

We have laws against driving while intoxicated or shooting firearms into the air because those actions put everyone else at risk. I don't know what everyone thinks, but the line needs to be drawn when someone's action (or inaction) endangers other living beings.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jana at Jade House on August 14, 2021, 06:56:55 am
Jade House is cautiously relieved to hear that University classes wil drop distancing and registering in the labs and lecture halls on 20 September.  This is to say it will not be mandated. Lectures are limited to 75 seats though.
Maybe people will be able to come to church without registering for a seat too. 
But it is a move forward.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on August 14, 2021, 08:19:03 am
Where do you draw the line?


The line is determined by two things:

1. The probabilities of consequences.
2. The balance between public and private considerations.

In this case:

1. The probabilities of severe illness, lasting health effects, hospitalization and even death are more important than temporary inconvenience.
2. This is not a public safety vs. individual liberty issue, even though a lot of people like to quote the founding fathers and Frederick Douglass on social media. It is public safety vs. political party affiliation. Party affiliation is a choice, not a protected right.

It's interesting how people are super supportive of government policies which benefit them personally, but when policies benefit other people and inconvenience them personally, then they become libertarian constitutional scholars.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jen on August 14, 2021, 09:29:11 pm
Quote
It's interesting how people are super supportive of government policies which benefit them personally, but when policies benefit other people and inconvenience them personally, then they become libertarian constitutional scholars.

Sadly, this also seems to hold when it comes to urgings from our prophets.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Sarahgirl on August 14, 2021, 10:54:48 pm
Has anyone been following how ineffective the Pfizer vaccine is against the Delta variant? Apparently, Moderna is a bit better: https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-study-moderna-vaccine-far-better-than-pfizer-at-preventing-delta-infection/ (https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-study-moderna-vaccine-far-better-than-pfizer-at-preventing-delta-infection/). My husband (Zeta-flux to those of you from old Nauvoo) just got a breakthrough case. I am sick and don't see how it could be anything else since my symptoms are the same. Just waiting on PCR test results which take a few days. Unfortunately, school starts early next week so we are going to have to figure out how to best quarantine. Everyone 12 and up was vaccinated with Pfizer. We have an 8 and 10 year old who aren't. So far none of the kids are showing symptoms. Symptoms first started on Monday of this week. I have to admit it would be a relief to have everyone test positive so we don't have quarantine whenever we are sick.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on August 15, 2021, 09:27:09 am
Sarah, you, Zeta and your family are in our prayers. By the way, you two have both been missed.

I have heard that after the 6/7 month mark, Pfizer drops down to 42% effective whereas Moderna is still in the 70-80% effective range. The CDC has approved booster shots for those with weak immune systems.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/12/mayo-clinic-covid-breakthrough-risk-may-be-much-lower-with-moderna-vaccine-than-pfizer.html (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/12/mayo-clinic-covid-breakthrough-risk-may-be-much-lower-with-moderna-vaccine-than-pfizer.html)
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on August 15, 2021, 09:57:31 am
Both vaccines are still good at preventing hospitalization and death, which is what they were designed to do, but have reduced ability to prevent infection that can be detected by a test, though still 8X better than no vaccine. This is due to increased viral load with a reduced incubation period. The body can fight off the infection before it becomes severe, but does take a couple of days to ramp up antibody production, and this virus is quick, and likes to infect the upper airways.

There is a different type of vaccine that can protect against infection in the airways, but none have been approved, yet. These are nasally inhaled vaccines. They induce IgA production, which is the antibody that protects in the mucus. IgM and IgG are in the blood, and are what most injectable vaccines elicit. If I remember correctly, these nasal vaccines do not last very long. Imagine the uproar if people were told they had to go back every 6 months.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: cook on August 15, 2021, 01:40:14 pm
We've had an increase of numbers in some areas. Thus some restrictions are coming in effect again.They do exclude worship, but a decision was made in our Stake that we will continue (the restriction are now until Sep 13th, but who knows if they will end or continue) with a hybrid model- sacrament meeting for all who want it (masked of course) and then the second hour only for primary and youth. And the parents either wait outside or go home and come back to pick them up.

I actually like this.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on August 15, 2021, 02:35:42 pm
Where do you draw the line?
The line is determined by two things:

1. The probabilities of consequences.
2. The balance between public and private considerations.

In this case:

1. The probabilities of severe illness, lasting health effects, hospitalization and even death are more important than temporary inconvenience.
 

Ok, fair enough, but I suggest "the probabilities" are pointing in a different direction than you claim.  I figure the COVID negative health impacts for vaccinated folks, are quickly approaching that of the common flu.   A good hefty flu season will kill 60,000 in the US, like it did in 2017-18.   I would expect, since we're all principled good humans who love our neighbors and all, that once COVID deaths drop to a rate of killing 60k/yr or under, everyone following such good principles will be a-ok with a full return to the old normal.  Right?

Keep in mind the regular everyday flu, that we've all lived through since we were born, will infect 9-45 million Americans annually, and hospitalize 140k-810k of them in any given year. 

Quote
2. This is not a public safety vs. individual liberty issue
As the negative impacts of COVID for vaccinated people approach flulike levels, you bet yer bippy it's a public safety vs. individual liberty issue.

Quote
It's interesting how people are super supportive of government policies which benefit them personally, but when policies benefit other people and inconvenience them personally, then they become libertarian constitutional scholars.
I don't find that interesting any more.   But you should do the other side too.  You know, the folks who run off emotions, willing to do whatever possible to keep people masked and isolated because it helps them feel safe, while ignoring massive upticks in suicides/domestic violence/mental illness/violent crime/economic disruption/etc.   I am beyond bored by both the armchair constitutional scholars, and the willfully-ignorant feel-gooders.

Rather than sit and gripe about them, I'm wondering about where we should draw the line.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Hobbes on August 15, 2021, 03:56:17 pm
On the issue of getting a booster shot after J&J, this (https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1426971389005754371?s=19) suggests that the combined is better than two mRNA. Certainly not the final word on the matter, but just data as it's coming in.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on August 15, 2021, 08:46:43 pm
Ooh!  As a disciple of funny things, here is a freebie for you folks which I am honorbound to share.  I'm debating COVID on another board, and heard the following comment, directed at someone who was boasting in jest about going to church maskless when sick:

"Oh, so you're one of those people.  I'd wish a pox upon you, but you'd just go to church and spread it to everyone else."

I'm sure some of y'all will find a way to use that phrase in your conversations with folks.  You're welcome.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: AndrewR on August 16, 2021, 03:17:19 am
When the law changed on July 19th we changed our ward policy to be in line with the government, but also following guidelines from out Area Presidency, and stake presidency.

Everyone is welcome to attend Sacrament meeting, we use alternating rows. Masks are advised (especially when moving around in the building), but not mandatory. We can now sing the Sacrament hymn - again masked up is advised.

We have 100% compliance. Everyone wears a mask, all through the meeting. We do have some who sing the other hymns as well.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on August 16, 2021, 09:54:08 pm
As the negative impacts of COVID for vaccinated people approach flulike levels...

"For vaccinated people." That's the big variable, isn't it.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on August 17, 2021, 12:38:40 am
As the negative impacts of COVID for vaccinated people approach flulike levels...

"For vaccinated people." That's the big variable, isn't it.
Well, that and
vaccinated people...
with some masking...
and extra distancing when sick...
and extra safety measures in place...
having almost as GOOD of outcomes as
unvaccinated people...
with no masking...
and pretty much no extra distancing when sick...
and normal (near-zero) safety measures in check.

How low are our standards?
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on August 17, 2021, 12:12:28 pm
I was optimistic when I saw that the UK had a rapid drop off in new cases, but they now have a tail. That is what will likely happen in the USA, too, especially if pediatric transmission becomes common with school restarting.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on August 17, 2021, 04:19:43 pm
As the negative impacts of COVID for vaccinated people approach flulike levels...
"For vaccinated people." That's the big variable, isn't it.
Well, that and
vaccinated people...
with some masking...
and extra distancing when sick...
and extra safety measures in place...
having almost as GOOD of outcomes as
unvaccinated people...
with no masking...
and pretty much no extra distancing when sick...
and normal (near-zero) safety measures in check.

No, no, NO - a thousand times no!   Dyany (and everyone else) - this is a very important thing to understand. 

If you take the shot, you're about 288 times less likely to go to the hospital or die, than your unvaccinated neighbor.  Period.  Full stop.  The proof is in the current COVID populations of every hospital and morgue across the planet.  Out of everyone needing hospitalization or morticians for COVID, the unvaccinated folks are a tiny minority.

Shout it from the rooftops - the vaccines are effective!  I've spent the last 2 weeks striving to get this across to the antivaxxers.  Please don't tell me I have to do it here as well. 

The negative effects of COVID for vaccinated people are approaching flulike levels,
Even if no masking!
Even if they don't socially distance!
Even if they have NO extra safety measures in place!

They have fewer cases, fewer hospitalizations, and fewer deaths - VASTLY SUPERIOR outcomes as
unvaccinated people...
with no masking...
and pretty much no extra distancing when sick...
and normal (near-zero) safety measures in check

This is the most important thing to understand.  The vaccines work!  The old-style ones work.  The newfangled Moderna and Pfizer mRNA science-fiction-y vaccines work.  They don't just work, they work well!  For just about everyone!  Go to any hospital on planet earth and ask the people who would know - how many total COVID cases do they have, and how many of them are vaccinated?  You'll see stats like these, from this website: https://www.kff.org/policy-watch/covid-19-vaccine-breakthrough-cases-data-from-the-states/

Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on August 17, 2021, 04:29:16 pm
As the negative impacts of COVID for vaccinated people approach flulike levels...

"For vaccinated people." That's the big variable, isn't it.
It is a big variable.  As we watch cases rise and % of hospital beds grow, that's pretty much all unvaccinated people.  The plague that continues to keep us rooted to our news sources, that prevents us from dropping our guard, from a full return to normal - is only "a plague for the unvaccinated".

Roper's point is quite salient.  Unvaccinated people continue to get sick and die of Covid.  There are things we can do about this, and things we want to do but are not effective.  There's a tragedy - folks who are choosing to not get the shot, are accepting a higher risk, and the entire world suffers for it.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on August 17, 2021, 05:33:15 pm
You cannot say "even if there is no masking, even with no distancing," etc., because those things are STILL happening. YES I KNOW the vaccines greatly reduce the impact of the disease. That's a big, fat DUH. But you CANNOT claim that the other variables--which have dwindled mightily BUT STILL EXIST--are not reducing the overall numbers--even among the VACCINATED--some. We know that those other things help. Not as much as the vaccine, but they HELP.
Everyone, even the vaccinated, experienced reduced cases with those safeguards in place.
There are two factors that affect whether people get sick and how sick they get: One is their immune response (which includes both vaccine-generated antibodies and their general health), and the other is the viral load they are exposed to. The first is very important and valuable. But the 2nd is, too.
This is why my brother got sick. He was vaccinated. But his kids were too young to be vaccinated, so the viral load in the home was eventually enough to overload his immune response (including the vaccine-generated antibodies), so he got sick (and he was very sick, though he likely could have been more sick without the vaccine). He had the J&J vaccine, which has generally been shown to be weaker than the mRNA varieties, but his wife had the Pfizer, so after a few more days of being immersed in that massive viral load, she got sick, too. If they had only a trivial exposure, my brother and his wife would likely have had little to no symptoms at all.
It's why the CDC recommends the vaccinated to wear masks in low-vaccinated areas.
It's why the prophet and the 12 ask us all to distance, mask, and follow other precautions, vaccinated or not.
And I was comparing to INFLUENZA when there is no masking, few vaccinations, no extra distancing. In other words, while a covid-vaccinated person is safer from covid than a non-covid vaccinated person, they are NOT as safe as a flu-vaccinated person (removing flu variants not covered by the vaccine) is from the flu, even though there is generally a greater flu viral load exposure simply because society doesn't mask, distance, or utilize other safety precautions nearly as much with the flu.

Do you understand my point better now?


Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on August 17, 2021, 07:43:42 pm
Yes thanks.

Things must be a bit close to home, with your vaccinated brother & BIL getting sick from it anyway.   

It took me until yesterday to discover my first familial link to a negative COVID response.  My wife's grandma's sister's husband died of it.  (Or, at least he caught it in his final years of cancer, and succumbed to the virus before the cancer.)  I know a dozen or more people who have caught it, but his is the first negative story.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on August 17, 2021, 08:22:31 pm
There's a tragedy - folks who are choosing to not get the shot, are accepting a higher risk, and the entire world suffers for it.
People reject medical science up until the point they need medical science to save their life. How incredibly self-absorbed.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Taalcon on August 18, 2021, 10:19:26 am
This is a fantastic interview with Richard Turley by Church News, that goes into the history of the Church in relation to pandemic responses, and also gives additional context to the most recent First Presidency message that went out. Available in both audio, and a full transcript.

Following the recent First Presidency message on masks, immunizations, Richard E. Turley Jr. reflects on the lessons of history (https://www.thechurchnews.com/podcast/2021-08-17/episode-44-podcast-historian-richard-turley-vaccinations-face-masks-222519?fbclid=IwAR3UaMUdOtdA6i6JTfA3oI_B3QkP6MPEmkPMSPRjuWGKyZaMWKpYwuCcD6Y)
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on August 19, 2021, 12:01:33 am
Texas husband & wife both refused vaccine, & both went to the hospital & died of COVID weeks apart. Sadly, their insistence on Making A Statement has left behind four orphans.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/mother-of-4-who-refused-vaccine-dies-of-covid-days-after-husband-killed-by-virus/ar-AANs9Su?ocid=msedgntp

In another Texas case, a young adult got COVID & is in grave condition following emergency surgery, after he & his mother both refused to be vaccinated & he got sick.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/teen-with-covid-left-fighting-for-life-after-deciding-with-mom-not-to-get-vaccine/ar-AANmXbq?ocid=msedgntp

If these people didn’t trust science, why did they go to the hospital & take up space, oxygen, & the valuable time of medical staff that actual sick people who believe in the benefits of medical care could use? There are plenty of folks who have legitimate reasons why they can’t be vaccinated, or are too young to receive the vaccine yet, or have illnesses or emergencies other than COVID but hospitals are too swamped to take any but the most urgent cases. People who willfully allow themselves to get sick because they refuse to take a potential life-saving vaccine, at no cost, should not be getting in the way of real patients getting health care.

Maybe I sound mean, but it is hypocritical to refuse the benefits of science that can keep you from becoming sick but then expect science to fix you up when you get sick as a consequence of your refusal.

Oh, yes... the above families are now pleading for donations via GoFundMe.

Meanwhile, in other Texas news, Greg Abbott, the modern day Lone Star Nero, has tested positive. No, not for signs of human intelligence, for COVID.

https://news.yahoo.com/texas-gov-greg-abbott-tests-211916170.html

Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on August 19, 2021, 10:29:11 am
A local (Nampa, so Jen's town) councilman in a recent meeting likened possible COVID protocols to racial segregation. And was applauded by 2 other council members. This demagogue cited the unassailable ideal of "personal freedom."

I would LOVE to see his reaction to the "personal freedom" of doctors, nurses, and medical facilities being extended to denying care to those who refused vaccines and safety measures. It would completely make sense.

I would LOVE to see his reaction to individuals using their "personal freedom" by using their protected gun rights to protect their families from those who would harm them with the virus (though I don't think anyone would ever resort to that type of violence against COVID, and I wouldn't want it. So far, all the gun violence regarding protocols has been in the name of 'protecting' people from face masks  ::) )

People are stupid and selfish.

Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on August 19, 2021, 11:39:45 am
Meanwhile, in other Texas news, Greg Abbott, the modern day Lone Star Nero, has tested positive. No, not for signs of human intelligence, for COVID.
https://news.yahoo.com/texas-gov-greg-abbott-tests-211916170.html
And since he's been vaccinated, and happily riding it out in isolation at home, he'll most likely make a full recovery, if he ever even shows any symptoms to recover from in the first place.  He wasn't symptomatic two days ago, and I see he's still happily tweeting away.

No "signs of human intelligence" indeed.  Demonizing others doesn't look good on you. 

For vaccinated folks, COVID is about as serious as the regular flu. 


A local (Nampa, so Jen's town) councilman in a recent meeting likened possible COVID protocols to racial segregation. And was applauded by 2 other council members. This demagogue cited the unassailable ideal of "personal freedom."
It's a very powerful and reasonable argument.  Especially for those who see value in critical race theory.

Take New York for example.  70% of whites are vaccinated, and only 17% of African Americans.  So when New York passes a law saying people must prove vaccination status in order to enter an indoor restaurant...
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/08/04/nyc-vaccine-mandate-indoors-502509
https://covid19vaccine.health.ny.gov/vaccine-demographic-data

This demagogue
...
People are stupid and selfish.

Demonizing others doesn't look good on you either. 

Govt mandates to force people to prove vaccinated status, in order to gain access to services/businesses/trave/etc, absolutely have a common-sense, easy to understand, obvious racial disparity.  Especially with people of color.

Y'all can do better.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on August 19, 2021, 05:03:43 pm
The racial disparity of vaccinations has nothing to do with that councilman's argument (he was having a fit about the suggestion that clear plastic dividers be put between council seats there).
What he was whitesplaining was that treating people different because they are vaccinated/wear masks/distance/follow safety protocols was like treating people differently because of the color of their skin.
Which is not only wildly wrong, but wildly offensive.
One is based 100% on choices.
One is based 100% NOT on choices.
One potentially hurts others if not enforced.
One only hurts others if it IS enforced.

If you think those are REMOTELY the same and don't detect any bad (and extremely racist) arguments there, then there is no reason to continue this conversation.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on August 19, 2021, 05:49:59 pm
The racial disparity of vaccinations has nothing to do with that councilman's argument (he was having a fit about the suggestion that clear plastic dividers be put between council seats there).  What he was whitesplaining was that treating people different because they are vaccinated/wear masks/distance/follow safety protocols was like treating people differently because of the color of their skin.
So again, yes, treating people different because they are vaccinated, is very much absolutely heck yes like treating people differently because of the color of their skin.

New York has effectively banned more than 80% of black people from eating at a restaurant or going to a gym.  While only 30% of white people have that problem.  Are you sure you don't see it?

Starting with calling with people stupid, and then moving to outright racism with the word 'whitesplaining'?   You sure?

Maybe there's some context I'm missing.  Could you cite your source?  Perhaps I could understand how this person you're talking about is doing something wrong.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jen on August 19, 2021, 07:47:53 pm
A local (Nampa, so Jen's town) councilman in a recent meeting likened possible COVID protocols to racial segregation. And was applauded by 2 other council members. This demagogue cited the unassailable ideal of "personal freedom."

I would LOVE to see his reaction to the "personal freedom" of doctors, nurses, and medical facilities being extended to denying care to those who refused vaccines and safety measures. It would completely make sense.

I would LOVE to see his reaction to individuals using their "personal freedom" by using their protected gun rights to protect their families from those who would harm them with the virus (though I don't think anyone would ever resort to that type of violence against COVID, and I wouldn't want it. So far, all the gun violence regarding protocols has been in the name of 'protecting' people from face masks  ::) )

People are stupid and selfish.

I've given up having any faith in our local leadership. Especially now, considering who Ada County picked for the Department of Health board.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on August 20, 2021, 12:18:36 am
So again, yes, treating people different because they are vaccinated, is very much absolutely heck yes like treating people differently because of the color of their skin.
People with a different skin color don't create serious health risks for everyone around them.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: cook on August 20, 2021, 08:43:04 am
Quote
So again, yes, treating people different because they are vaccinated, is very much absolutely heck yes like treating people differently because of the color of their skin.

I find this problematic. Skin colour cannot be chosen. Vaccination can. One can have many reasons to not vaccinate, but it still is a choice. More like only those who have purchased a ticket to a concert can go.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on August 20, 2021, 11:21:02 am
Roper and Cook, do neither of you see the racial issue with New York's vaccine passport program for restaurants?
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jana at Jade House on August 20, 2021, 02:49:49 pm
I just saw on international news that Florida( I think Jacksonville) is using public libraries as overflow for covid patient treatment.
When was the last flu epidemic having patients sleep on library floors ( there was a photo)?


Further, there was a comment that covid is now equivalent to the yearly flu.
The last time I had the flu I was in bed for 6 weeks. At my age, a 6 week illness is 6 weeks I cannot live my life...and it took me years to regain my health.  I have zero need to do that again.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: pnr on August 20, 2021, 05:50:18 pm
Jana, they opened it and had more than they planned for.  News report say they expected more chairs the next day.

I do think we should consider the disparate impact of government policies on people of color.   We hear a lot of talk about intentional rejection of vaccine by that segment.   But then whites (non-Jews at least) don't have the history of being lied to about vaccinations and eugenics that was often race based that  people of color have.    In addition, people of color disproportionately make up the personal services and poor populations in most parts of the country.   Being poor obstructs taking time, and getting to and from a vaccine site.   Some would have to trade a vaccine for food for their children because they cannot afford to take time off to do it.   It is really easy of those of us who are free to have this conversation in this forum to wrongly attribute non-vaccination to choice.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: cook on August 21, 2021, 12:36:43 am
Quote
Roper and Cook, do neither of you see the racial issue with New York's vaccine passport program for restaurants?
*

N3urotypical, I don't see it as a racial issue. If it would be a racial issue it would have stemmed from "we don't like black people and most of them seem to not have vaccinated themselves, so let's create this system that forbids most of them coming to restaurants and gyms".

If only a minority of any group of people is vaccinated there is a huge problem. It may be a political problem or it may be a stupidity problem -it has not been taken into consideration that different groups are different and need different ways of executing the matter. If everything has been done - like walk in vaccination places in where people actually are, group vaccinations at schools and other similar places and still the numbers are that low, then it is only about a choice the people have made. In neither case it is about race.

If the government has decided that we will not make an effort to reach out to these people because they are black and deserve to die, then it is plain racist.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on August 23, 2021, 07:38:25 pm
Great news for those who were waiting for full FDA approval before getting vaccinated. Pfizer received full approval today, and Moderna and J&J are not far behind.

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-first-covid-19-vaccine
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Sweet William on August 23, 2021, 07:54:44 pm
Great News!   I hope this approval makes many more people feel comfortable.

On a personal note, I had the Moderna back in February, so I'm up for the booster on October 1st.  We got it really early where I work.  I work for an Indian tribe (and they call themselves an "Indian" tribe, so I'm comfortable with that, LOL).  Indian Health Services got a big Moderna supply.  Even moreso that most, the tribal membership was reticent to take the vaccine.  They offered it first to tribal members.  Not enough of them took it, so the supply they had was going to expire, so they offered it to non-tribal employees.  And I was "Bring it on, Willis."

At that same time, my shoulder started hurting a lot.  It hurts every day, now (a 2 on the 1-10 scale).  But correlation doesn't indicate causation, right?  :)
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on August 23, 2021, 10:29:24 pm
Woo Hoo! Is this the same Sweet William from Old Nauvoo? Welcome, my friend!

I got the Moderna shot in March, so I'll be do for a booster around Thanksgiving. It's a good thing to be thankful for.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Sweet William on August 23, 2021, 11:11:25 pm
Thank you very much.   :)  I am one and the same. 
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jen on August 23, 2021, 11:48:16 pm
Hi, SW!

I also got Moderna in early February. Awful muscle aches, especially in my left leg, for about 7 weeks. One quad muscle on that side still aches regularly. I suspect it's related but I don't know how.

I'd still do it again, and I'll likely get the booster as I'm in heathcare.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on August 24, 2021, 12:23:10 am
Welcome back, Sweet William! 🖐 It's great to see you here.

People are taking Ivermectin, a parasite drug meant for livestock, to prevent or treat COVID. 😟 The FDA is warning people not to do it.

https://www.voanews.com/covid-19-pandemic/fda-warns-against-livestock-medication-covid-treatment
 
Mississippi health officials were reporting worrisome numbers of such cases. This is a state where less than 37% of people are fully vaccinated, second worst in the whole country... & they have folks self-medicating with a horse & cow drug. Seriously, what are they thinking? If they're going to play doctor, why don't they stick to tried & true home remedies like Lysol or Clorox?
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on August 24, 2021, 05:16:17 pm
I am super, super, super glad our Sweet William is back.
Now we can talk about Sweetened threads again.  ;D

As to booster: I got Pfizer in February (one at the beginning of the month and one towards the end), and will be getting a booster as soon as possible. I don't quite qualify as immunocompromised to get it before October, but I'm eager, as I also work in healthcare in populations that get sick easily (for various reasons).
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Sweet William on August 24, 2021, 05:49:24 pm
I still have a copy of that thread.  Sometimes I read it and participate in some seriously loud laughter.

I miss Kathy a lot.   :)
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Sparky on August 24, 2021, 08:18:18 pm
I remember that sweetened thread! I miss Kathy, too. She certainly was a bright spot with her bunnies!
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Redd on August 24, 2021, 11:41:58 pm
As far as the vaccine for Covid is concerned, Hick and I had the J&J one and done shot. He took it because his bosses wife is medically fragile and the boss said if the guys took the shot they would not need to wear the mask at the maintenance yard (Hick is a commercial contract landscaper), I got it because I have a daughter in prison and all of the jails and prisons require visitors, employees and as many of the inmates that can have it be vaccinated.
  I really think the covid shot will be a yearly thing like flu and pneumonia  shots. I am sensitive to eggs, and most vaccines are based in egg proteins. The nice thing about the covid shots is that they are not based in egg proteins. Though the only reason for me to ever take another covid shot is if I ever get to visit DD#2 again...even with me having the shot they are making it near impossible to go visit. That, however, is a discussion for another time.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on August 25, 2021, 12:18:55 am
I am in Washington state. 5 days ago our hospital had 72 covid patients, with 33 in the ICU. Today we have 99 covid patients (I do not know the ICU number). That is a big jump. Today the hospital cancelled all elective and semi-elective operating room procedures for the next week or two starting tomorrow. No knee or hip replacements. No back surgeries. Only emergent and urgent cases can go. We just do not have enough beds in the hospital, nor nursing staff to cover that many patients. OR personnel are being furloughed.

98% of those admitted to our hospital are unvaccinated. They are causing rationed health care.

Over the last 9 months there has been vocal opposition to the vaccines. Many have cited a major reason they are opposed to vaccines is that the vaccines are experimental and only authorized under emergency use authorization. Now that a vaccine is fully approved, I wonder how many of those who cited the EUA in their opposition will get vaccinated. I anticipate 0% will have their minds changed.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on August 25, 2021, 09:13:19 am
Now that a vaccine is fully approved, I wonder how many of those who cited the EUA in their opposition will get vaccinated. I anticipate 0% will have their minds changed.
Political allegiance is stronger than truth. Political allegiance is stronger than civic responsibility. Political allegiance is stronger than care and compassion. Party has supplanted God for many Americans. January 6th showed us that.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jen on August 25, 2021, 12:33:43 pm
I do know of at least 1 family here who changed their minds on the vaccine as soon as the prophet spoke out about it. That's a little encouraging.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on August 25, 2021, 08:38:21 pm
So, this was weird:

I attended a professional development session for school leaders today. We met in the conference room of a commercial building. All of us were required to wear masks, even though we are all public school educators and have been fully vaccinated for months. No worries so far. It's a small inconvenience.

We had a "working lunch" while the training continued. We all took off our masks, sat next to each other in that same room, and ate and conversed with each other and participated in the group discussions. When we were done eating, everyone put their masks back on. And that really ticked me off. Because it wasn't about safety at all. It was theater--meant to show that in education, we follow rules even when they're nonsense. And here I thought education was about teaching children to ask questions and to think critically...
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Sweet William on August 25, 2021, 10:50:09 pm
...
98% of those admitted to our hospital are unvaccinated. They are causing rationed health care.

.....I wonder how many of those who cited the EUA in their opposition will get vaccinated. I anticipate 0% will have their minds changed.

Unfortunately, I think you are very close to correct.  It will probably be closer to single digit percentages (I hope).

On my Facebook feed, I posted the article about the Pfizer approval, and said I hope it makes some people feel more comfortable getting the vaccine.  So far, absolutely no dice.  I have friends on a million different political sides, and they seem to be digging in, not softening their stance.  Maybe after they've thought about it for a while, they'll soften their stance.  I hope so.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Sweet William on August 25, 2021, 10:54:56 pm
Now that a vaccine is fully approved, I wonder how many of those who cited the EUA in their opposition will get vaccinated. I anticipate 0% will have their minds changed.
Political allegiance is stronger than truth. Political allegiance is stronger than civic responsibility. Political allegiance is stronger than care and compassion. Party has supplanted God for many Americans. January 6th showed us that.

Cynical old me fully believes that if President Trump had won, the vaccine attitudes would be nearly reversed.  Sometimes I want to shake my Pro-Trump, Anti-Vaccine friends and say "The vaccine was created  and approved for emergency use during the TRUMP ADMINISTRATION!!!"
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on August 26, 2021, 12:58:31 pm
I now also have a vaccinated (J&J) BIL who has caught COVID from an unvaccinated anti-masker at work.
4 of their 5 kids are too young to be vaccinated (one turned 12 earlier this year and just got his 2nd shot a couple of weeks ago).

I work with vulnerable populations, some of whom the vaccines won't work for. We're taking all kinds of safety precautions at work still, but many of my team still refuse the vaccine and only wear masks when required to.

I really am done with this. We could have been done with this so long ago if people would stop being buttheads!
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on August 26, 2021, 02:52:27 pm
With this type of virus I do not think we will be done with it permanently. I think it will become endemic, rather than pandemic. More similar to influenza. There will be a steady state of cases. However, there will not be too many hospitalizations or deaths as everyone will have been vaccinated or have already contracted it. Children will get exposed each year, but there will be fewer problems than with influenza.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on August 26, 2021, 11:24:30 pm
Political allegiance is stronger than truth. Political allegiance is stronger than civic responsibility. Political allegiance is stronger than care and compassion. Party has supplanted God for many Americans. January 6th showed us that.
I'm reminded of a scene from The Simpsons, where they go to Boston. 

Marge Simpson : Everyone here is so fit. It's like being in a finance ad. Free sunscreen? This place is so progressive. Hey, do you vaccinate your children?
Woman : Of course!
Marge Simpson : But not stupid progressive!

It aired in 2016.  Not sure what happened to the widely accepted cultural narrative in the last 5 years, to have us all believing the only militantly-ignorant anti-vaxxers out there are redstate hillbilly republicans, but the current widely accepted cultural narrative is wrong. 
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on August 27, 2021, 08:02:29 am
Not sure what happened to the widely accepted cultural narrative in the last 5 years, to have us all believing the only militantly-ignorant anti-vaxxers out there are redstate hillbilly republicans, but the current widely accepted cultural narrative is wrong.


Well, there is this: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2021/07/29/covid-19-is-crushing-red-states-why-isnt-trump-turning-his-rallies-into-mass-vaccination-sites/ (https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2021/07/29/covid-19-is-crushing-red-states-why-isnt-trump-turning-his-rallies-into-mass-vaccination-sites/)

Look, there are plenty of blue state granola-eating democrats who are militant anti-vaxxers. "Vaccines cause autism and the government is keeping it secret." We've heard that for years.

The difference is this: Republicans leaders, including the former President, have used lies about COVID-19 and resistance against COVID-19 mitigation as political rally cries. And their constituents support them.

Thankfully, there are some Republican leaders who accept reality and are working to change the narrative. We need more of them.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: pnr on August 27, 2021, 10:05:23 am
Wait a minute.  Last week Trump told his followers at a rally to get vaccinated.  And he was promptly boo'd.   
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jen on August 27, 2021, 02:56:22 pm
Wait a minute.  Last week Trump told his followers at a rally to get vaccinated.  And he was promptly boo'd.

I guess even he can't unring that bell.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on August 29, 2021, 05:35:15 pm
So, anyone against requiring vaccination for anyone on any sort of public assistance or welfare?

Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jen on August 29, 2021, 06:19:24 pm
So, anyone against requiring vaccination for anyone on any sort of public assistance or welfare?

Maybe for Medicaid/Medicare, because it's a direct risk to the cost of those programs.

I'm itchy about the government mandating it, as much as I strongly, strongly believe that anyone who can have it, should.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on August 29, 2021, 08:01:44 pm
So, anyone against requiring vaccination for anyone on any sort of public assistance or welfare?

As someone who works 100% with Medicaid recipients, I'd have to say I'd prefer it, BUT only if there were exemptions for those who had a legitimate medical reason that puts them at higher risk if they receive the vaccine. And most of them would need the vaccine brought to them.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on August 30, 2021, 05:29:57 pm
So, anyone against requiring vaccination for anyone on any sort of public assistance or welfare?

The Golden Rule: He who has the gold makes the rules.

You wanna fly on my airplane? Then you follow my rules.
You wanna work for my company? Then you follow my rules.
You wanna receive money from the gubment? Then you follow the gubment's rules.
You don't like the rules? Feel free to go someplace else with different rules.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: pnr on August 30, 2021, 05:43:15 pm
Categorically yes, I object to taking away people's choice because they are poor among us.

But I am absolutely for requiring ever government employee or contractor at every level who has any physical contact with those they serve to be vaccinated.   People who must interact with their government should not be put at risk in any way to do that.  No one has to work for the government, but if they do they should not be allowed to exercise their personal freedom to create risk.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on August 30, 2021, 09:41:12 pm
Categorically yes, I object to taking away people's choice because they are poor among us.

But I am absolutely for requiring ever government employee or contractor at every level who has any physical contact with those they serve to be vaccinated.   People who must interact with their government should not be put at risk in any way to do that.  No one has to work for the government, but if they do they should not be allowed to exercise their personal freedom to create risk.

Here's the rub:
Those on Medicare or Medicaid receive services from those insurances.
From providers whom they put at risk, as much or more than other employees.
If you require state employees to be vaccinated because they could "just work somewhere else," then it is equally valid to require recipients of those services to be vaccinated because "they could just get help somewhere else."

In both cases, other choices are more painful, but they exist. It is unfair that one group be required to be vaccinated to receive pay while the other is not required. Though, AGAIN, with exemptions for unusual medical risk.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Sweet William on August 31, 2021, 11:07:47 am
So, anyone against requiring vaccination for anyone on any sort of public assistance or welfare?

The Golden Rule: He who has the gold makes the rules.

You wanna fly on my airplane? Then you follow my rules.
You wanna work for my company? Then you follow my rules.
You wanna receive money from the gubment? Then you follow the gubment's rules.
You don't like the rules? Feel free to go someplace else with different rules.

Or use the political process to have your "gubmint" change the rules to something more palatable.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: pnr on August 31, 2021, 06:30:44 pm
Those on Medicare or Medicaid receive services from those insurances.
From providers whom they put at risk, as much or more than other employees.
[/quote]

Sick people (other than VA, fitting the category of govt employees/contractors) do not get services from government.   Medicaid and medicare insurance coverage is NOT provision of services, but paying  a private provider (who can mask or vaccinate as they choose for itself and its employees, and even for their patients --- did you read about the AL(?) dr who has given his patients notice that on Oct 1st if they aren't fully vaccinated, they will not be able to see him for medical care?-- to require masks/vaccines).

Further, Medicare covers retirees most of whom are not poor and all of whom have paid taxes and premiums at some level for the coverage.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on August 31, 2021, 07:32:37 pm
That's all fine and well and good, but to be a Medicare or Medicaid approved provider, you have to meet certain criteria and follow certain rules, and one of them is generally not being able to easily deny services to those on those insurances if you are to continue being approved for that insurance.
In case you didn't know, every insurance provider in the nation has hoops, paperwork, and agreements that providers have to meet/file to qualify to be 'in-network.' If a provider is out-of-network, they often (including with Medicaid and Medicare) cannot be reimbursed by that provider at all, or, if they are reimbursed at all, it's at a lower rate. If they are in-network, they have to go through the process of filing to receive payment, and accept a lot of cuts in costs, both of which cost a lot of money, and as such, make it a difficult decision. Do I go through the hoops required to be in-network for every insurance? Do I accept the limitations and cuts in pay? Is it worth it to have to hire extra personnel just for insurance billing? Or do I not try to be part of that network, and as such, lose most patients with that insurance?
Because of this dilemma, most providers pick and choose a limited number of insurance networks to join, usually based on the 3 factors of 1. ease of qualification process, 2. reimbursement rates, and 3. amount of hassle it takes to be reimbursed.
And because of THIS, MOST medical providers WILL NOT take Medicare, which is abysmally managed, and a significant number won't take Medicaid. If you see someone with what seems like decent Medicare coverage, I can guarantee you it's not from the Medicare. It means they have a decent supplemental insurance, which costs a lot more on top of the Medicare taxes they paid into for decades. But there are a ton of people, most invisible to the masses, who cannot afford supplemental insurance, who have to take just bare bones, unlivable (literally) Medicare.
Now, as to how this affects my original point: Most Medicare and Medicaid providers are already at such a low reimbursement rate and thin profit margin that they are barely surviving. Which means that most providers that are in those networks are either extremely altruistic (rare), or bad enough at their jobs to be extremely desperate for patients. Even the altruistic ones rarely last more than a few years before they realize that the demographics they serve and the fact that, for instance, they aren't even allowed to charge for no-show appointments, lead to barely being able to make ends meet and a lot of hopelessness and frustration.
Now, take all those factors and throw in the idea of being FORCED to serve a population who refuses to vaccinate or take safety precautions, thus putting the providers at risk. More private doctors, who take other insurances and higher-income patients who could even afford to private pay, have the privilege of restricting patients to the vaccinated. Those who take Medicare/Medicaid don't generally have that luxury.
This hopefully grants some insight as to why the healthcare industry is not only leaking workers like a shattered sieve, but the low-income providers are literally leaving that demographic in such high numbers that entire agencies and clinics are shutting down.
Now think about how the healthcare workers leaving those low-income healthcare providers affects those low-income populations.
It's not pretty.
I've seen it a LOT, first-hand.
And this, among other things, is why I think vaccination mandates could be a good thing.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on September 02, 2021, 08:50:09 am
I think the pandemic will soon transition into an endemic disease. 100% of people, including children, will be exposed and infected. This will happen soon. In the USA we have only fully vaccinated 53 % susceptible people. Children are now susceptible, which has changed the denominator and made eradication of the virus through herd immunity impossible.

The transition from pandemic to endemic is ongoing. Children will do better than adults. Adults have the choice to face the corona virus with a naive immune system, or one primed with antibodies and memory cells. They will not have the choice not to face it.

In an endemic state a population wide vaccine and mask mandate will not be needed. Neither will vaccine passports. There will be less focus on positive tests of asymptomatic people. Testing will only be performed for symptomatic individuals, like we do for most diseases.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Sweet William on September 02, 2021, 11:31:49 am
I was hoping to avoid it entirely, after taking the vaccine.  I'm kind of a whimp with stuff.   :)  I was waiting with baited breath for my booster on the 1st of October. 

Given my complete dearth of side effects from the first Modern rounds, I was pretty confident about a booster being no big deal.  For me.

I guess getting covid being "not naive" is better than "babe in the woods" with the immune system.  For me at least.

That "naive" immune system description made me chuckle.  But it's probably a real medical description.  Fascinatingly accurate, really.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Sweet William on September 02, 2021, 11:45:32 am
That's all fine and well and good, but to be a Medicare or Medicaid approved provider, you have to meet certain criteria and follow certain rules, and one of them is generally not being able to easily deny services to those on those insurances if you are to continue being approved for that insurance.
In case you didn't know, every insurance provider in the nation has hoops, paperwork, and agreements that providers have to meet/file to qualify to be 'in-network.' If a provider is out-of-network, they often (including with Medicaid and Medicare) cannot be reimbursed by that provider at all, or, if they are reimbursed at all, it's at a lower rate. If they are in-network, they have to go through the process of filing to receive payment, and accept a lot of cuts in costs, both of which cost a lot of money, and as such, make it a difficult decision. Do I go through the hoops required to be in-network for every insurance? Do I accept the limitations and cuts in pay? Is it worth it to have to hire extra personnel just for insurance billing? Or do I not try to be part of that network, and as such, lose most patients with that insurance?
Because of this dilemma, most providers pick and choose a limited number of insurance networks to join, usually based on the 3 factors of 1. ease of qualification process, 2. reimbursement rates, and 3. amount of hassle it takes to be reimbursed.
And because of THIS, MOST medical providers WILL NOT take Medicare, which is abysmally managed, and a significant number won't take Medicaid. If you see someone with what seems like decent Medicare coverage, I can guarantee you it's not from the Medicare. It means they have a decent supplemental insurance, which costs a lot more on top of the Medicare taxes they paid into for decades. But there are a ton of people, most invisible to the masses, who cannot afford supplemental insurance, who have to take just bare bones, unlivable (literally) Medicare.
Now, as to how this affects my original point: Most Medicare and Medicaid providers are already at such a low reimbursement rate and thin profit margin that they are barely surviving. Which means that most providers that are in those networks are either extremely altruistic (rare), or bad enough at their jobs to be extremely desperate for patients. Even the altruistic ones rarely last more than a few years before they realize that the demographics they serve and the fact that, for instance, they aren't even allowed to charge for no-show appointments, lead to barely being able to make ends meet and a lot of hopelessness and frustration.
Now, take all those factors and throw in the idea of being FORCED to serve a population who refuses to vaccinate or take safety precautions, thus putting the providers at risk. More private doctors, who take other insurances and higher-income patients who could even afford to private pay, have the privilege of restricting patients to the vaccinated. Those who take Medicare/Medicaid don't generally have that luxury.
This hopefully grants some insight as to why the healthcare industry is not only leaking workers like a shattered sieve, but the low-income providers are literally leaving that demographic in such high numbers that entire agencies and clinics are shutting down.
Now think about how the healthcare workers leaving those low-income healthcare providers affects those low-income populations.
It's not pretty.
I've seen it a LOT, first-hand.
And this, among other things, is why I think vaccination mandates could be a good thing.

Your viewpoint is very helpful to me on a "make me grateful" level. 

My mother is on Medicare primary with medicaid secondary.  We have luckily had access to the best providers in our town and in Salt Lake.  The billing departments sometimes have to be told to balance bill to Medicaid, but other than that, no worries.

I see all of the bills, and it astounds me the difference between what providers charge and what is deemed an allowable charge by Medicare.  The hospital has to write off at least 1/2 of the original charge, usually more.  On one surgery, the 20% leftover from Medicare was still a lot of money, IMHO.  Medicaid took care of that, so no out of pocket for her.

The pharmacy charged us $10 for a bottle of artificial tears, because it wasn't covered as an over-the-counter medication.  I told her nursing home that there were 5 bottles of artificial tears in her nightstand that I bought for $2 at Walmart, and to stop ordering over the counter meds through their pharmacy.  Good grief, $10 for a 2 ounce bottle of artificial tears?  What a racket!

I also notice this with my personal EOB from my employer provided medical insurance.  Networks are able to negotiate quite a reduction in allowable charges.  Luckily, I have been able to stay in network exclusively.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on September 02, 2021, 12:34:31 pm
I think the pandemic will soon transition into an endemic disease. 100% of people, including children, will be exposed and infected.
My armchair virologizing has had me thinking those same thoughts for a few months.

They tell me that we're all descendants of the folks who survived the Spanish Flu.  It never went away - just has been out there morphing and evolving into some of the various yearly flu strains that go through us humans.  They tell me viruses tend to mutate into more contagious and less deadly versions of itself.  And all our immune systems, partially gained from our mothers through shared blood and breast milk and whatnot, have a generations-long chain of partial immunity to it, so it's not nearly as deadly any more because of our inherited defenses.

My other reason for believing this, is the "any good zombie movie" framework of thinking.  Absolutely nothing COVID related in the last 22 months has surprised me a single bit, because they're all elements in any good zombie movie.   You've got panic in the streets, overloaded and overrun healthcare systems, a million different opinions, governments that can't keep their stories straight and keep issuing vague/conflicting/contradictory/inconsistent statements.  You've got known personalities that fail and lose face, you've got unknown nobodies rising to hero status.  You've got stress ruining lives and breaking apart families and societies.  You've got political and social upheaval.  You've got endless people trying to quarantine and be smart and do right, but just can't avoid the need for human contact, and end up making things worse.

And finally, the last checkbox in any good zombie movie, is that there is no place to hide.  By the time the credits are done rolling, no matter how secluded or secure the survivors ended up, they eventually fall to the zombies.  And the only ones left alive have some sort of natural immunity or something.

So yes, it still absolutely makes sense to vaccinate as much of the world as is willing, because even though we're all getting it, the vaccine still reduces our odds of bad/horrible things happening by a joyfully large amount.  Unvaccinated against, this thing has a 99+% survival rate, and that's still 50+ million dead on earth.  So yeah, if you're tough/young/fit/strong/healthy enough, then whatever.  Everyone else, get your shots folks.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Sweet William on September 02, 2021, 01:08:54 pm
I think the pandemic will soon transition into an endemic disease. 100% of people, including children, will be exposed and infected.
My armchair virologizing has had me thinking those same thoughts for a few months.

They tell me that we're all descendants of the folks who survived the Spanish Flu.  It never went away - just has been out there morphing and evolving into some of the various yearly flu strains that go through us humans.  They tell me viruses tend to mutate into more contagious and less deadly versions of itself.  And all our immune systems, partially gained from our mothers through shared blood and breast milk and whatnot, have a generations-long chain of partial immunity to it, so it's not nearly as deadly any more because of our inherited defenses.

My other reason for believing this, is the "any good zombie movie" framework of thinking.  Absolutely nothing COVID related in the last 22 months has surprised me a single bit, because they're all elements in any good zombie movie.   You've got panic in the streets, overloaded and overrun healthcare systems, a million different opinions, governments that can't keep their stories straight and keep issuing vague/conflicting/contradictory/inconsistent statements.  You've got known personalities that fail and lose face, you've got unknown nobodies rising to hero status.  You've got stress ruining lives and breaking apart families and societies.  You've got political and social upheaval.  You've got endless people trying to quarantine and be smart and do right, but just can't avoid the need for human contact, and end up making things worse.

And finally, the last checkbox in any good zombie movie, is that there is no place to hide.  By the time the credits are done rolling, no matter how secluded or secure the survivors ended up, they eventually fall to the zombies.  And the only ones left alive have some sort of natural immunity or something.

So yes, it still absolutely makes sense to vaccinate as much of the world as is willing, because even though we're all getting it, the vaccine still reduces our odds of bad/horrible things happening by a joyfully large amount.  Unvaccinated against, this thing has a 99+% survival rate, and that's still 50+ million dead on earth.  So yeah, if you're tough/young/fit/strong/healthy enough, then whatever.  Everyone else, get your shots folks.

My biggest concern after experiencing 2020, is what will happen in a similar situation with a 50% or lower survival rate.  Fighting, arguing, etc with a 99+% survival rate is completely different once half of the people who get the thing start dying.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on September 02, 2021, 08:09:16 pm
I read The Atlantic. Yeah, it's a fairly liberal publication. The articles are mostly well-researched and well-written. Plus, I like exploring a point of view which is different from the exclusively conservative discussions in my family and community. Today, I read a refreshing look at the limits of the data we have and how it compares to the risks we actually understand quite well. The story was unexpected from The Atlantic's usual lean to the left.

From the article "The Downsides of Masking Young Students Are Real"

"Scientists have an obligation to strive for honesty. And on the question of whether kids should wear masks in schools—particularly preschools and elementary schools—here is what I conclude: The potential educational harms of mandatory-masking policies are much more firmly established, at least at this point, than their possible benefits in stopping the spread of COVID-19 in schools. To justify continued masking of schoolkids—with no end date in sight—we have to prove that masks benefit kids, and at what ages. States and communities that are considering masking policies just to be safe should recognize that being overly cautious has a cost, while the benefits are uncertain."

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/school-mask-mandates-downside/619952/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/school-mask-mandates-downside/619952/)

Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on September 03, 2021, 12:51:44 pm
My biggest concern after experiencing 2020, is what will happen in a similar situation with a 50% or lower survival rate.  Fighting, arguing, etc with a 99+% survival rate is completely different once half of the people who get the thing start dying.
Well, it would depend on R value, time someone is infectious before symptoms, before death, and such.   Ebola had a roughly 50% death rate, but it was only spread via body fluids, not airborne.

It's the stuff of good apocalypse fiction.  But then again, the whole "hooray we have a good vaccine everyone go back to normal, oh wait here comes Delta" is good apocalypse fiction too. 
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on September 03, 2021, 01:29:31 pm
People are much better at evaluating big, immediate risks than small, distant ones. It is easier to stay away from a steep cliff than a gentle slope. I think a 50% mortality pandemic would cause less harm than a lower mortality pandemic, like Covid.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on September 03, 2021, 03:20:22 pm
People in Oklahoma dosing themselves with ivermectin are tying up ambulances & overloading ERs so gunshot victims can't get timely treatment. 😒

https://www.insider.com/oklahomas-emergency-rooms-are-clogged-with-people-overdosing-on-ivermectin-2021-9

This is a state that ranks #40 in vaccination percentage. Let me guess, the others trust a cattle deworming drug more than they trust the CDC, Dr. Fauci, the Surgeon General, & even Donald Trump & his belated advice to his fans to get vaxxed.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on September 04, 2021, 02:16:27 pm
People are much better at evaluating big, immediate risks than small, distant ones.
Or big, distant ones too.  I learned the other day that the mortality rate for newborns is 100%.  But because it takes 70+ years to reach that percentage, nobody panics.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on September 04, 2021, 03:40:42 pm
It's kinda odd that the CDC guidance in 2019 was to give all refugees from Latin America, the Middle East and Africa this dangerous cattle dewormer, don't you think? Perhaps the CDC has nefarious motives, as they are still giving it?  It's apparently pretty safe since they are giving it to ALL refugees, including children.


Overseas Refugee Health Guidance/ Immigrant and Refugee Health/ CDC

Summary of Recommendations
This guidance is intended for the International Organization for Migration (IOM) physicians and other panel physicians who administer overseas predeparture presumptive treatment for intestinal parasites, but may also be referenced by U.S. medical providers caring for refugees who will be receiving presumptive treatment after they arrive in the United States.

While these recommendations have been implemented in many overseas sites, logistical and procurement issues still limit their full implementation in some. All Middle Eastern, Asian, North African, Latin American, and Caribbean refugees should receive presumptive therapy with:

All Middle Eastern, Asian, North African, Latin American, and Caribbean refugees should receive presumptive therapy with:
Albendazole, single dose of 400 mg (200 mg for children 12-23 months)
AND
Ivermectin, two doses 200 mcg/Kg orally once a day for 2 days before departure to the United States. (http://Overseas Refugee Health Guidance/ Immigrant and Refugee Health/ CDC

Summary of Recommendations
This guidance is intended for the International Organization for Migration (IOM) physicians and other panel physicians who administer overseas predeparture presumptive treatment for intestinal parasites, but may also be referenced by U.S. medical providers caring for refugees who will be receiving presumptive treatment after they arrive in the United States.

While these recommendations have been implemented in many overseas sites, logistical and procurement issues still limit their full implementation in some. All Middle Eastern, Asian, North African, Latin American, and Caribbean refugees should receive presumptive therapy with:

All Middle Eastern, Asian, North African, Latin American, and Caribbean refugees should receive presumptive therapy with:
Albendazole, single dose of 400 mg (200 mg for children 12-23 months)
AND
Ivermectin, two doses 200 mcg/Kg orally once a day for 2 days before departure to the United States.)

https://www.cdc.gov/immigrantrefugeehealth/guidelines/overseas-guidelines.html (https://www.cdc.gov/immigrantrefugeehealth/guidelines/overseas-guidelines.html)

When ivermectin was first released, it as haled as a miracle drug and so actually won a Nobel prize in 2015.

Quote
In 2015, the Nobel Committee for Physiology or Medicine, in its only award for treatments of infectious diseases since six decades prior, honoured the discovery of ivermectin (IVM), a multifaceted drug deployed against some of the world's most devastating tropical diseases. Since March 2020, when IVM was first used against a new global scourge, COVID-19, more than 20 randomized clinical trials (RCTs) have tracked such inpatient and outpatient treatments. Six of seven meta-analyses of IVM treatment RCTs reporting in 2021 found notable reductions in COVID-19 fatalities, with a mean 31% relative risk of mortality vs. controls.

Interestingly, that comes from a .gov site and not a right-wing, misinformation one.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34466270/ (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34466270/)
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on September 04, 2021, 06:05:20 pm
More on Ivermectin, from the National Institute of Health

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7251046/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7251046/)

Abstract
Ivermectin is an antiparasitic drug that has shown also an effective pharmacological activity towards various infective agents, including viruses. This paper proposes an alternative mechanism of action for this drug that makes it capable of having an antiviral action, also against the novel coronavirus, in addition to the processes already reported in literature. (http://Abstract
Ivermectin is an antiparasitic drug that has shown also an effective pharmacological activity towards various infective agents, including viruses. This paper proposes an alternative mechanism of action for this drug that makes it capable of having an antiviral action, also against the novel coronavirus, in addition to the processes already reported in literature.)

Look at the actions of this administration and tell me how they have built trust with American citizens. Just this week, two vaccine regulators resigned from the FDA because political pressure put on the FDA by the administration. Doesn't shout out trust for either the FDA or Biden. How much has the FDA already been compromised by pressure from the administration? Maybe not at all - but how can we tell? CDC? Same. Dr Fauci? He's got trust issues, mostly of his own doing.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on September 04, 2021, 11:41:12 pm
It's kinda odd that the CDC guidance in 2019 was to give all refugees from Latin America, the Middle East and Africa this dangerous cattle dewormer, don't you think? Perhaps the CDC has nefarious motives, as they are still giving it?  It's apparently pretty safe since they are giving it to ALL refugees, including children.

The "they" who are giving it to refugees, including children, are health providers or people they have trained. If a medical professional with appropriate knowledge & clinical expertise prescribes something, it is a legitimate therapy.

Those poor souls who ended up in the hospital are SELF prescribing cow medicine without consulting a doctor or other health provider, which is an entirely different matter. Even if they asked a veterinarian, that would be better than nothing. It isn't so different from someone reading the Lysol label that it "kills 99% of germs including the COVID-19 virus," & deciding that it must be a good prophylaxis & gargling with it.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on September 05, 2021, 12:53:07 am
SW said:
Quote
My mother is on Medicare primary with medicaid secondary.  We have luckily had access to the best providers in our town and in Salt Lake.  The billing departments sometimes have to be told to balance bill to Medicaid, but other than that, no worries.

Very lucky indeed! I worked briefly (just a couple of months) earlier this year with someone younger with that exact same insurance combo you mentioned, but the Medicaid was only to supplement, and very limited, so she was basically denied almost everything that Medicare didn't cover, and being low income, she couldn't afford supplementary insurance. So she was denied almost every type of provider (including, we found out later, myself, so I had to discharge her), had TERRIBLE prescription coverage (paid hundreds a month out-of-pocket),  and the extremely rare providers that COULD have Medicare cover (I have no choice; only Medicaid covers my service) were all full, so she had nothing. It had been going on for months, and she was desperate and in tears by the time I had to discharge her because we found out her insurance didn't cover my service, either.

Most of the time we don't see the people like this. But I feel we as a people will be held accountable at the judgment bar for how we treated the 'least of these.'
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Palmon on September 05, 2021, 08:30:04 am
If the ‘poor souls’  are the ones who ended up in the emergency room because they overdosed on the animal form of the drug or are the gunshot victims that didn’t get care because of all the stupid anti-vaxers who overdosed on animal ivermectin in Oklahoma (or was it Oakland? Same exact story) - anyway FAKE NEWS. The hospital denies treating anyone for any type of ivermectin over-dose.

Quoted from update of orginal Rolling Stone article
[UPDATE: Northeastern Hospital System Sequoyah issued a statement: Although Dr. Jason McElyea is not an employee of NHS Sequoyah, he is affiliated with a medical staffing group that provides coverage for our emergency room. With that said, Dr. McElyea has not worked at our Sallisaw location in over 2 months. NHS Sequoyah has not treated any patients due to complications related to taking ivermectin. This includes not treating any patients for ivermectin overdose. All patients who have visited our emergency room have received medical attention as appropriate. Our hospital has not had to turn away any patients seeking emergency care. We want to reassure our community that our staff is working hard to provide quality healthcare to all patients. We appreciate the opportunity to clarify this issue and as always, we value our community’s support.”

[/quote]

Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on September 05, 2021, 02:41:09 pm
OK, I’m sorry if the specific story about Oklahomans medicating with ivermectin wasn’t accurate. So I’ll just stick to what health experts are saying about experimental use of unproven drugs without medical supervision & outside of clinical trials.

https://www.upi.com/Health_News/2021/09/02/covid19-ivermectin-health-groups-say-stop-using/1961630609926/

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/american-medical-association-other-groups-warn-against-ivermectin-use-for-coronavirus/ar-AAO2ezD?ocid=BingNewsSearch

Which states have people most interested in ivermectin? Just by coincidence – or not… they include Oklahoma, Alabama, Arkansas, Mississippi and Louisiana, among the least vaccinated states. I wonder if the percentage of people googling for info on actual vaccines is as high as those searching for ivermectin.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2021/09/03/here-are-the-states-searching-most-for-unproven-covid-cure-ivermectin/?sh=26c4f3ab111f

Poor Oakland, such an easy mark for cheap shots. It’s partly their own doing, they have a notoriously high crime rate & people do shoot each other pretty regularly. But 86% of its people have had at least one dose of vaccine. When will Oklahoma or Mississippi be able to say that?

More comprehensive look at why ivermectin with regard to COVID is getting attention.

https://news.yahoo.com/ivermectin-explained-why-called-horse-185600769.html

Look at the actions of this administration and tell me how they have built trust with American citizens.

Funny thing, many of us have been wondering that for the past four years.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on September 05, 2021, 03:34:55 pm
Look at the actions of this administration and tell me how they have built trust with American citizens.

Here are some of the ways the Biden administration has earned my trust:

- Rejoined the World Health Organization and the Paris Climate Accord
- Ended a 20 year war in Afghanistan--something previous administrations promised but never delivered
- Sanctioned Russia for elections interference
- Sent over 100 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines to countries who need it
- Required vaccines for nursing home employees or lose federal funding
- More women and minorities in key cabinet positions than any other president
- Rejoined the United Nations Human Rights Council (Trump pulled the U.S. out)
- Extended federal fair housing protections to LGBTQ Americans
- Stopped new leases for oil and gas drilling on federal land
- Stopped Trump's use of a National Emergency Declaration which used federal emergency funds for the border wall
- Issued an executive order requiring political appointees to take an ethics pledge
- Issued an executive order making American supply chains less reliant on foreign companies
- American Rescue Plan which restores funding for veteran's programs for mental health, and gives much needed emergency funding to small businesses and schools
- $2.5 billion to address mental health and opioid addiction
- Increased minimum wage for federal contractors
- Implemented rules which protect Americans from unexpected medical bills

And, of course, I haven't heard of millions of citizens returning their stimulus checks because they think Biden screwed that up.

I trusted George W. Bush on most things, but not all.
I haven't trusted Barack Obama since his days as a Senator, where his voting record showed that his solution to just about everything was more government regulation.
I haven't trusted Donald Trump since before "The Apprentice." He's been an ass his entire adult life.
So far, I'm trusting Joe Biden because of the way he treats other people, specifically those who are disadvantaged.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Sparky on September 05, 2021, 04:32:15 pm
Roper, thanks for your list. I appreciated it. My family is all very anti-Biden, me, not so much, but not so pro either, so having a list like this is good because I'd never see it from most of the people around me. I like having understanding of both sides of an issue.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on September 05, 2021, 04:52:36 pm
And, of course, I haven't heard of millions of citizens returning their stimulus checks because they think Biden screwed that up.

Ummm... this ↑↑↑ 😉

Like most Americans, I'm naturally leery of politicians. I think most of them are fairly self-serving, & one thing I judge them on is whether they appear to be ENTIRELY self-serving. If they seem to be motivated at least somewhat by what is best for the people (or most of the people), I'm more inclined to look favorably on them. This is a factor in how I regard Bush I & II, Obama to some degree even though I don't find him entirely trustable, & Biden. And it is a factor in how I regard Trump, who is the most self-serving, Machiavellian, narcissistic occupant of the WH in my lifetime, & made me miss Nixon. I saw a reference someplace to the Dark Triad & looked it up, & it clicked in my head that Trump personifies it. Biden may not be the most competent president we'll ever see, but I believe he cares about people. No one, regardless of any other abilities, can be president of the United States without caring about people.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on September 05, 2021, 09:36:37 pm
Unfortunately, the use of ivermectin in treating covid patients is clouded by politics. One of the papers that Palmon linked to was partially written by a Dr. McCullough, who is among the biggest fans of ivermectin. He does not have much credibility with many in medicine because he has claimed that the VAERS data shows large amounts of people dying from the vaccines (not true), that only the elderly have a benefit from a covid vaccine, and that the non-elderly have no need for it. He also claims that his treatment regiment could have saved 85% of those that died of Covid. Also not true.

I am still undecided on ivermectin's role in treating covid. I haven't seen convincing evidence for its use. Overall it is a pretty safe drug, so I do not think that there is much harm in using it at the right dosages and settings in certain situations as an adjunct.

Its danger is it has led some people to forgo a vaccine because they believe there is a miracle drug that will wipe out all their covid symptoms. It is not a miracle drug. Even if it is shown to help, it will be like adding Tylenol to a total knee replacement.

Here are some adjuncts that do help with covid infections:
Ample vitamin D helps (from sunlight preferably over pills).
Being in good shape helps.
Having medical ailments well managed helps.
Smaller inoculating number of viral particles helps (why masks might still be important, even with aerosols).
Being young helps.
A primed immune system helps immensely.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on September 12, 2021, 04:31:36 pm
Alaska state legislator refuses to mask, can’t fly airlines to the capital, and is now crying about being prevented from doing her job. I guess she is a victim of bigotry against the unvaxxed. ::) Wanna bet she goes begging on GoFundMe to cover the legislative pay she’ll be docked for not attending? 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/barred-from-flying-over-mask-dispute-lawmaker-asks-to-be-excused-from-senate/ar-AAOlegQ?ocid=msedgntp

People who adamantly refused the vaccine are now sick or dying, & they (or their loved ones, if the patient cannot communicate) hope others will be smarter & help keep themselves & others healthy. 😢

https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2021/09/death-is-imminent-for-michigan-woman-who-opposed-covid-19-vaccination-and-regretted-decision.html

https://news.yahoo.com/didnt-want-push-aunt-vaccine-110051011.html

https://news.yahoo.com/mother-college-student-died-screaming-090100015.html

Before passing away, mother pleads that her five about-to-be motherless kids be vaccinated.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9905471/Four-children-Texas-orphaned-parents-die-COVID-19.html

Couple “considered” vaccine but decide on Florida vacation even without it. (I wouldn’t go to Florida right now fully vaccinated, wearing an encapsulated hazmat suit with self-contained breathing apparatus, with a double layer of plastic garbage bags tied around my neck, & knocking on wood the entire way there). Their seven children, ages 10-23, lose both parents.

https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/trending/coronavirus-7-children-orphaned-after-parents-both-die-covid-19/5A6ILGQNYZCKXC6YMBSYY77R3U/

Parents refuse vaccine, both die, leaving yet another five kids orphaned. One is a baby born while the parents were sick. The parents never got to meet their new child.

https://www.newsweek.com/parents-5-children-including-newborn-die-2-weeks-apart-covid-1628223

At least this mother got to see her infant before passing.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/texas-woman-dies-of-covid-after-giving-birth-mom-i-wish-i-got-vaccinated/ar-AANFXse?ocid=BingNewsSearch

This mother was hesitant, but her 15-yo son with two autistic sibs did the research & begged her to do it for his birthday. She decided being their mom mattered most, & she admitted being afraid but did it for her family. The governor of Minnesota accompanied her, hoping to convince more people of color to do the same. Thanks, Mom, who knows how many parents & children you might be saving? 👍

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9899077/Minnesota-mom-got-Covid-vaccines-son-15-said-birthday-wish.html
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Taalcon on September 12, 2021, 05:00:06 pm
Look like members aren't going to be able to rely on getting their Bishops to sign religious exemptions for testing or vaccine mandates:
https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/09/10/lds-church-wont-help/?fbclid=IwAR1kucLkUvAYLcqvbHC82j64-j-r3ZSFbJB33qscBk2qDt7kXqMUo99JP8s
In California:
Quote
“No church official can sign any kind of document supporting the notion that church doctrine/teaching is opposed to vaccination or that the church is opposed to vaccination mandates,” reads a letter sent to all bishops and stake (regional) presidents from the faith’s Area Presidency. “As to the former, the opposite is true [the church not only supports but also encourages vaccination]; as to the latter, the Brethren [top officials] have not taken a position.”

In some instances, the letter adds, “signing such documents could even be perjury.”
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on September 12, 2021, 05:27:38 pm
The article says that the Church "does have an "important doctrine about agency,“but that alone does not provide a religious basis for disobeying the law or demanding special exemptions from it.”

What that says to me is that people are free to do whatever they want, or avoid doing what they don't want, & they are entitled to claim that their religion allows them to choose their actions. But they are not entitled to claim specifically that their religion is a basis for refusing to be vaccinated.

Some religions prohibit their people from taking in products that contain or involve cells or blood from animals (or certain animals), or human blood or human fetal cells. It seems to me that to claim a religious exemption, I would need to show that such a prohibition is actually codified or canonized by my religion, not just a thing I imagined or made up or added onto my church's actual doctrine to fit my agenda. So, for instance, for those Latter-day Saints who asked a bishop to sign a religious exemption, what specific doctrine, principle, or policy could they cite as proof that they are entitled to the exemption?
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on September 16, 2021, 02:58:18 am
What, your Bishop is being a hardliner & refusing to sign your religious exemption? 😠  No worries, an Oklahoma pastor will sign one for you, & you validate it by donating to his church. If you don’t give, he says, it is not valid. He is also running for public office & offering the waivers on his website.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/an-oklahoma-pastor-is-offering-to-sign-religious-vaccine-exemptions-for-anyone-and-claiming-they-only-carry-weight-if-individuals-donate-to-his-church/ar-AAOumYX?ocid=msedgntp

People like that give organized religion a bad name, & are why some activists demand an end to tax-exempt status for churches.

What really killed these people? Their families have a pretty good idea.

https://news.yahoo.com/man-dies-being-turned-away-062101740.html

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/woman-s-obituary-blames-unvaccinated-for-her-covid-19-death-the-cost-was-her-life/ar-AAOtyaA?ocid=msedgntp

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/09/14/widow-blames-unvaccinated-iowa-man-breakthrough-covid-death/8276384002/

Those people whose loved ones didn't survive might agree with these comments:

https://news.yahoo.com/kimmel-rips-unvaccinated-people-says-152900216.html

https://www.newsweek.com/husband-cancer-patient-furious-dumbass-unvaccinated-hospital-beds-1620592
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Taalcon on September 16, 2021, 12:47:35 pm
Just learned my (vaccinated) Brother-in-law tested positive for Covid, which happened to correspond to when he had his 4 kids over for the weekend, and his ex-wife (vaccination status unknown) informing him SHE had tested positive. My kids played with his kids over the weekend (although outside on a hike, and as distanced as possible), so *fingers crossed*.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on September 16, 2021, 03:39:27 pm
I am not usually a supplement proponent, but as summer is ending and I am not getting my natural vitamin D, I am starting to take Vitamin D supplements. I am also taking a zinc supplement, as zinc has been shown to decrease the length of a cold by a few days. Both of these supplements take a few weeks for benefits, so I am starting now before I get sick.

I do eat a lot of my chickens' eggs, which also contain vitamin D. And I do not know if I am zinc deficient. So this may just be placebo effect. I am just counting the days until I am exposed, which will happen eventually. These supplements have actual data to support their use.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: pnr on September 16, 2021, 07:28:28 pm
... pastor will sign one for you, & you validate it by donating to his church. If you don’t give, he says, it is not valid. He is also running for public office...

Like the world needs a politician who doesn't even hide his willingness to trade his positions for money.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Taalcon on September 16, 2021, 09:00:03 pm
Just learned my (vaccinated) Brother-in-law tested positive for Covid, which happened to correspond to when he had his 4 kids over for the weekend, and his ex-wife (vaccination status unknown) informing him SHE had tested positive. My kids played with his kids over the weekend (although outside on a hike, and as distanced as possible), so *fingers crossed*.

Well, we found some take-home rapid tests locally, and it looks like we're likely all good here. I'm just ... tired of *waves hands* all this.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: dyany on September 17, 2021, 11:38:18 am
Quote
What, your Bishop is being a hardliner & refusing to sign your religious exemption? 😠  No worries, an Oklahoma pastor will sign one for you, & you validate it by donating to his church. If you don’t give, he says, it is not valid. He is also running for public office & offering the waivers on his website.

I was too young (22) when I left Oklahoma to be deeply aware of politics, but this is completely in-line with the buying of votes I'd seen since the 80s.

There's a reason Oklahoma has had more impeached governors per year as a state than any other state.  ::)  I have so many good memories of my interactions with people there, but that was a while back. I have a hard enough time with Idaho's extreme right-wing stupidity. I don't think I could tolerate going back to Oklahoma. The attitude there has put so many of my family members at risk or got them sick.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on September 17, 2021, 12:06:32 pm
In his defense, I think the pastor has only asked for a $1 donation to show a minimum proof that he is their pastor, and is also requesting that people watch his sermons online.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on September 17, 2021, 01:44:46 pm
Just learned my (vaccinated) Brother-in-law tested positive for Covid, which happened to correspond to when he had his 4 kids over for the weekend, and his ex-wife (vaccination status unknown) informing him SHE had tested positive. My kids played with his kids over the weekend (although outside on a hike, and as distanced as possible), so *fingers crossed*.

Well, BIL is most likely to be fine.  Here’s a snapshot of my county (which only has a 58% fully vaccinated population).  From what I understand, this is the picture basically everywhere on the entire planet.  Even the Russian vaccine made out of vodka and snow seems to be doing good.

Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Taalcon on September 17, 2021, 08:55:46 pm
Oh, I'm not too worried about how BIL will turn out (he's hit pretty hard right now, but not hospital hard). There were some more extended family members along the potential lines of contact, however, that I was worried about, especially if we had picked it up from him. Doesn't look like that's the case, though.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason on September 19, 2021, 11:23:55 pm
I have been digging into why LDS might try to claim religious exemption for various vaccine mandates. I had surmised that there would be those who didn't like the human cell line that the vaccines were tested on, which were originally derived from an aborted fetus in the 1960s. As that would mean they would also eschew Ivermectin, Hydroxychloroquine, Remdesivir, Regeneron monoclonal antibodies, Tylenol, Ibuprofen, Peptobismol, metformin, metoprolol, most other medicines, and all other vaccines, this was never actually brought up.

No one claimed a personal revelation that the vaccine wasn't right for them (it is okay to use for most people, but they received warning that they would have a severe reaction).

Some religious fundamentalist forums have claimed revelation suggesting that President Nelson was not acting as prophet, or that he has no authority at all. They also claim revelation that the virus is not real, the vaccine is killing a high number of people, it has mind control property, or that it is part of some large conspiracy. That would be false revelation, possibly similar to Hyrum Page and his stone. Or they have simply turned their politics into their religion.

The most common reason people gave was "AGENCY!", usually with some exclamation marks. I acknowledged that agency was a vital tenet of our faith. But I then asked them to tell me why their religion led them to use their agency to reject the vaccines, and none could give a good answer, beside "agency".

I spent quite a bit of time honestly trying to help them come up with the best possible LDS religious arguments for rejecting the vaccine, but the only one I could convince myself would be valid is personal revelation that that individual would have a horrible reaction to the vaccine, so they should avoid it, even if it is safe and good for most other people. But I have never actually heard anyone use that argument.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on September 20, 2021, 09:29:50 am
Agency!

You can freely choose to be obedient. Or not.  You are NOT free to determine the consequences of your choices. Consequences are bound by eternal Law. People often forget the distinction.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on September 20, 2021, 10:30:19 am
I have been digging into why LDS might try to claim religious exemption for various vaccine mandates.

So, I've been open about being pro-covid vax.  I and family all got vaccinated the week we were eligible.  I actually signed up early to be part of the Moderna phase III trial.

That said, I have another reason:  Even though all my kids had all their shots growing up, whenever this or that school asked us for vaccination records, we'd claim the religious exemption.   Not because we hadn't gotten them their shots, we had.  We just wanted to share as little personal information as possible with government entities.  The religious exemption was a magic "go away and leave us alone" wand that always put an end to the requests for intrusive bureaucratic paperwork.

I'm guessing at least some of the LDS wanting to claim religious exemption now, are thinking the same thing.  "It's none of your business, I do not recognize or respect your authority over me, leave me alone, stop asking."

I created this meme way last March - I think it aged rather well.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Sparky on September 20, 2021, 06:18:06 pm
N3uroTypical, Thanks for sharing why you ask for a religious exemption. I would have never considered that as a reason before you shared it.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on September 22, 2021, 05:30:21 am
Alabama, Georgia, & Texas accounted for a third of last week’s COVID deaths in the U.S. They account for 13.34% of the country’s population,

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/these-three-states-account-for-a-third-of-last-week-s-covid-deaths/ar-AAOGmAC?ocid=msedgntp

A Texas restaurant has put bare faces into its dress code. One couple was 86ed because they wanted to protect their immunocompromised infant. Texas is deep into protecting the unborn, but what about the already born?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/texas-couple-was-asked-to-leave-restaurant-for-wearing-face-masks-to-protect-their-immunocompromised-infant/ar-AAOFEf9?ocid=msedgntp

“I know better”… so my kids are now orphans. This one was a registered nurse. Near the end she said, “This is horrible.” The whole family was anti. Her mother was in the same hospital in a medically induced coma with COVID, & the staff woke her to tell her of the death of her daughter whom she hadn’t even known was ill. Her brother went for his first shot the day after his sister passed. And he’s had to quit work to take care of the special-needs twins that she left motherless.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/unvaxxed-nurse-dies-of-covid-19-leaving-behind-2-special-needs-kids/ar-AAOFN3X?ocid=msedgntp

She compared COVID to indigestion & kept wishing she would get it to prove the alarmists & vax pushers & mask Nazis wrong. Now she’s asking people to pray for her. Folks, PLEASE be careful what you wish for.

https://www.ibtimes.com/trump-supporter-who-begged-have-covid-19-suffers-brutal-symptoms-after-testing-3299283

“They are eternally grateful to the staff at Community Regional Medical Center in Fresno” – who were stuck treating them while people were having heart attacks or getting spinal injuries in car wrecks.

https://www.yourcentralvalley.com/life-health/health/coronavirus/i-wish-id-gotten-vaccinated-twin-brothers-suffer-long-recovery-from-covid-19/

“I was an idiot.” “When it’s too late, it’s too late.” “I thought I was going to die.”
 
https://www.sfgate.com/nation/article/regret-COVID-unvaccinated-hospital-coronavirus-16378317.php

The mayor of San Francisco was a nitwit too, in the first major U.S. city to “lock down” in 2020, on her orders. It’s consistently been among the most COVID-safe places in the country because people are diligent about masks & distancing, & 81% of residents over age 12 are fully vaxxed. She got caught on camera barefaced, singing, dancing, & chatting at a nightclub, but instead of apologizing & promising to be a better example, she rationalized & griped about the “fun police.” Now she’s a news story everywhere. Poor showing, Madame Mayor, & it isn’t true that any publicity is good publicity.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/san-francisco-mayor-london-breed-under-fire-for-going-maskless-attacks-fun-police/ar-AAOGjwc?ocid=uxbndlbing

https://www.staradvertiser.com/2021/09/17/breaking-news/san-francisco-mayor-breaks-strict-health-order-partying-maskless-at-nightclub/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10001951/Outrage-maskless-hypocritical-San-Fran-Mayor-BLM-founder-party-nightclub.html
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Taalcon on September 22, 2021, 12:14:10 pm
First Presidency reinstating Masks for everyone in all Temples, effective immediately:
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/first-presidency-temple-masks-letter

Quote
Dear Brothers and Sisters:

We are grateful that in recent months, some level of ordinance work has resumed in every temple. Our desire is to keep temples open.

As cases of COVID-19 increase in many areas, we want to do everything possible to allow temples to remain open. Therefore, effective immediately, all temple patrons and workers are asked to wear face masks at all times while in the temple. These safety protocols are temporary, based on COVID-19 conditions, and will be rescinded as soon as circumstances permit.

Our urging Church members to be vaccinated and to protect themselves and others from the spread of disease has precedent. Prior First Presidencies shared similar messages in 1900 about smallpox and in 1957 regarding polio. Please do all you can to protect yourself and others so the work of the Lord on both sides of the veil can move forward.

Sincerely yours,

Russell M. Nelson
Dallin H. Oaks
Henry B. Eyring
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on September 22, 2021, 03:41:03 pm
A Texas restaurant has put bare faces into its dress code. One couple was 86ed because they wanted to protect their immunocompromised infant. Texas is deep into protecting the unborn, but what about the already born?

Shame on whoever came up with that nasty, horrible, disgusting, clueless comparison.

Shame on them for not understanding the difference between the legalized murder of unborn children, and a restaurant putting a restriction on who can and can't come into their store.

The utter cluelessness!

COVID has killed roughly ~300k year to date in the US.  When I started this post, there have been 625,894 abortions in the US this year.    As I'm about to click 'post', that number is now 625,903.

Can we maybe just think for a second about everything we all have individually and collectively done to prevent covid deaths, and compare that with the scant fractions of hardly anything being done to protect the lives of the unborn, who are dying at roughly twice the rate?

Ugh.  What a foul taste I have in my mouth now.   

UGH!
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on September 22, 2021, 08:17:28 pm
I'm guessing at least some of the LDS wanting to claim religious exemption now, are thinking the same thing.  "It's none of your business, I do not recognize or respect your authority over me, leave me alone, stop asking."

If you're on your own property, then sure. If you're in a public space, then the government has the right and the duty to protect the public good.

Plus, there's section 134, specifically verses 1 and 5.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on September 22, 2021, 08:42:22 pm
Shame on whoever came up with that nasty, horrible, disgusting, clueless comparison.

Shame on them for not understanding the difference between the legalized murder of unborn children, and a restaurant putting a restriction on who can and can't come into their store.

Well, that's not a fair or accurate comparison, either.

My conviction is that a human child developing in utero is entitled to the same legal protection as a human child in any post-birth stage of development, and that if parents can be legally compelled to support a developing child after birth, then they can be legally compelled to support a developing child before birth. In other words, I'm with you in opposition to elective abortion, for maybe slightly different reasons.

But come on, NT, you used intentionally inflammatory language, "legalized murder" and intentionally innocuous language "put a restriction on who can and can't come into their store." It is so much more than that. If you run a business which serves the public, you can't deny service to individuals for arbitrary means. That's established in legal precedent. And this instance was more than arbitrary--it was politically motivated and discriminatory.

Conservatives rant and scream about "protecting children" when it comes to the politics of abortion, but when it comes to providing flu vaccines for immigrant children being held at the border, or providing public health services for children in poverty, or requiring shot records to participate in public schools, then the "protecting children" narrative conveniently fades away and is replaced with political dogma. If people are not advocates for children in EVERY stage of development, then I don't believe they're sincere about "protecting children" when they go all ballistic over abortion. When it gets to that point, I'm more inclined to consider the feminist response that most conservative arguments regarding abortion are really about exercising control over women's bodies.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Sweet William on September 22, 2021, 09:41:12 pm
First Presidency reinstating Masks for everyone in all Temples, effective immediately:
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/first-presidency-temple-masks-letter

Quote
Dear Brothers and Sisters:

We are grateful that in recent months, some level of ordinance work has resumed in every temple. Our desire is to keep temples open.

As cases of COVID-19 increase in many areas, we want to do everything possible to allow temples to remain open. Therefore, effective immediately, all temple patrons and workers are asked to wear face masks at all times while in the temple. These safety protocols are temporary, based on COVID-19 conditions, and will be rescinded as soon as circumstances permit.

Our urging Church members to be vaccinated and to protect themselves and others from the spread of disease has precedent. Prior First Presidencies shared similar messages in 1900 about smallpox and in 1957 regarding polio. Please do all you can to protect yourself and others so the work of the Lord on both sides of the veil can move forward.

Sincerely yours,

Russell M. Nelson
Dallin H. Oaks
Henry B. Eyring

I hope it helps, and I hope it makes the temple workers feel safer.  I was able to wear a mask the entire time I was there a couple of weeks ago, when it wasn't required.  I have major claustrophobia issues.  I think I am receiving Divine help in this area as it relates to my temple and sacrament meeting attendance.  Not so much with my "Walmart" attendance.  ;)
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Curelom on September 22, 2021, 10:17:27 pm
Shame on whoever came up with that nasty, horrible, disgusting, clueless comparison....

Shame on them for not understanding the difference between the legalized murder of unborn children, and a restaurant putting a restriction on who can and can't come into their store.

The utter cluelessness!.... 

Ugh.  What a foul taste I have in my mouth now.   

UGH!

I came up with that comparison that you are calling shame, disgusting, clueless, etc. on, & I stand by that comparison. So shame on Curelom.

Texas & states like unto it (yeah, I’m looking at you, FL, GA, et al) preen & gloat about being pro-life, but people of all ages are dropping right & left from COVID because of official hindrances thrown by their own governors in the way of mask mandates or anything that would slow or stop the spread of the virus. Because... you got it, "freedom of choice." We all agree that a fetus is a living person (yes, even me, who you believe supports legalized murder of innocent children). But so is an already born person, like the infant that couple in the Texas café was hoping to protect with the masks that the owner ordered them to remove, jeopardizing that child’s right to life.

Find one single word I said that remotely supports your insinuation that I advocate or support elective abortion for the sake of convenience, or “legalized murder.” Look really, really close.

The new Texas law is not about preventing legalized murder of infants. I’m not clairvoyant, but it seems to be more about control over women & the state usurping even the most personal & sensitive of family decisions (ironic in a state that hollers to high heaven about the “right to choose” when it comes to masks or vaccines, eh?) It applies to any fetus with detectable cardiac activity, or heartbeat, which may occur before many mothers even suspect they are pregnant, long before the fetus is viable outside the womb, certainly long before the mother or medical providers have any idea about the health of the child. The Texas law also makes no exception for pregnancies from rape or incest.

Here is what the Church General Handbook says about abortion:

Quote
The Church opposes elective abortion for personal or social convenience. Members must not submit to, perform, arrange for, pay for, consent to, or encourage an abortion. The only possible exceptions are when:
•   Pregnancy resulted from forcible rape or incest.
•   A competent physician determines that the life or health of the mother is in serious jeopardy.
•   A competent physician determines that the fetus has severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth.
Even these exceptions do not automatically justify abortion…

Under the Texas law, a girl (maybe one of our daughters or kid sisters) who is victimized by a stranger or a pedo relative, & does not know almost immediately that she is pregnant, would have no legal recourse to end the pregnancy. A mother or mother/father might have little chance within the allowed timeframe of knowing whether her life or health was in jeopardy. Without even knowing they are expecting, obviously they would have no opportunity to know anything about the child’s health. The Church does not automatically endorse abortion, but allows it to be considered in these extreme circumstances, which Texas does not consider.

Come on up here & tell us that you think the instructions in the General Handbook, which were given by revelation from God, are nasty, horrible, & disgusting, & that the Church & its leaders, & our Prophet who is an M.D. as well as the Lord’s representative on Earth, are clueless & horrible people who support legalized murder.

I am not going so far as to say I am the target of an ad hominem attack here, but it’s pretty close to the edge. If I talked this way about another Nauvoodle or a brother or sister in my ward, I’d have a foul taste in my mouth too.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on September 23, 2021, 10:48:40 am
Ok, I was overly inflammatory, and for that I apologize.

But holy honk folks, placing a restaurant's 'no mask policy' on the same level as an antithesis to the pro-life stance?  If that's not overly inflammatory, then it is at very least ill-advised and unproductive.  Even if the no mask policy is not lawful, it's still nowhere on the same level.   One thing kills innocent defenseless children.  The other announces a policy that, if someone voluntarily walks into a building, they may be at some tiny increased risk of possibly catching something contagious. 

Since it has been brought up, again, I ask folks to think about everything done, both collectively and individually, to combat COVID.  And again, I ask folks to think about your own personal individual efforts to protect the lives of the unborn.  And again, I point out that abortions are ending lives in the US at twice the rate COVID is.

If y'all really want to make some case relying on how many of the hundreds of thousands of abortions every year might fall under rape/incest/mother's life or health in jeopardy, then you're totally welcome.  I'm thinking that line of argumentation will result in the persuasive power you might think, but that's up to you.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: N3uroTypical on September 23, 2021, 11:06:52 am
Here is what the Church General Handbook says about abortion:

Quote
The Church opposes elective abortion for personal or social convenience. Members must not submit to, perform, arrange for, pay for, consent to, or encourage an abortion. The only possible exceptions are when:
•   Pregnancy resulted from forcible rape or incest.
•   A competent physician determines that the life or health of the mother is in serious jeopardy.
•   A competent physician determines that the fetus has severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth.
Even these exceptions do not automatically justify abortion…

Come on up here & tell us that you think the instructions in the General Handbook, which were given by revelation from God, are nasty, horrible, & disgusting, & that the Church & its leaders, & our Prophet who is an M.D. as well as the Lord’s representative on Earth, are clueless & horrible people who support legalized murder.

Recent USA Today: "Just 1% of women obtain an abortion because they became pregnant through rape, and less than 0.5% do so because of incest, according to the Guttmacher Institute."    - https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/05/24/rape-and-incest-account-few-abortions-so-why-all-attention/1211175001/

Similar data from 1989: https://www.nytimes.com/1989/10/13/us/rape-and-incest-just-1-of-all-abortions.html

I'm all for exemptions that follow the good inspired reasoning in the handbook.  And I acknowledge there are plenty of such cases.   I'm not here to argue in favor of the Texas law, I'm here to cry out in pain that I'm in the company of folks who think it's a good idea to tie some businesses dumb 'no mask policy' to the abortion debate, because outrage.

Can y'all acknowledge the vast majority of abortions do not fall into those handbook categories?  Are y'all aware that the most common reasons given are things like "my birth control failed", or "I can't handle more children", or "I didn't want to get pregnant", or "I don't want the responsibility of caring for a child", or "I don't have healthcare", or "I don't want a child until I'm married"?   Less common, but still heard reasons are things like "I changed my mind", or "I don't like the feel of condoms", or "The guy says he won't pay for it", or "I found out I won't qualify for free benefits like I thought".   

Yeah, perhaps I overreacted.   I'm still thinking "shame, shame, shame."
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Roper on September 23, 2021, 03:01:44 pm
Strawman, NT. I'm on your side when it comes to the politics of abortion. I understand the stats you have quoted. I understand and support the Church's statement from the General Handbook.

I'm saying that I doubt the sincerity of Republican arguments against abortion when they use the rally cry, "Protect the children! Protect the children!" and then oppose policies protecting children once the child is born (because most of those policies are proposed by Democrats.) And the same holds true the other way: Democrats are all for policies which protect children once they're born, but when developing children are at their very most vulnerable, Democrats deny them their Constitutionally guaranteed right to life. They're all hypocrites when it comes to protecting children.

The specific example is more than a "dumb" business policy. It's a politically motivated stunt which communicates a big ol' F--- You! to people who were trying to protect a child. It's the same mentality as people who refuse to get vaccinated for political reasons, then fill up hospitals when they get COVID, putting everyone else at risk.  So, yeah...I have no conflicted feelings about lumping them in with abortion rights "champions." They're all placing partisan purity above protecting children.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: cook on September 23, 2021, 03:36:42 pm
Quote
I ask folks to think about everything done, both collectively and individually, to combat COVID.  And again, I ask folks to think about your own personal individual efforts to protect the lives of the unborn.

To combat covid I wear mask (here it's in any public place indoors and as a teacher at work), I got my two shots and I've taken tests as instructed and stayed away even with a small hint of flu like symptoms. I also make sure my pupils wash hands and that they follow the other instruction mandated.

My efforts to protect the lives of the unborn are that I teach about sex to my children and I teach sex ed at school. I've also had many impromptu discussions with pupils about sex. I've also taught about the issue to youth at the church and to YSA as part of the marriage course. I also teach about what to do if you meet a person touching you in places they should not etc and about keeping your own boundaries. At school. And many other related things. I do think I have actually done a lot more to reduce the number of abortions than what I have done to battle covid.

In either case, I'm just doing my part in the positions I'm in.

The rate in the US seems to be about 11,3 in 2018. In Finland that year it was 7,6. The difference is in the US the agerange is 15-44, in Finland 15-49. They say the lower rate is mostly due to sex education. So I think I've been doing pretty much:

Can I now say I really think people should do as told and protect the children by doing so?
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Taalcon on September 23, 2021, 04:17:43 pm
I'm with cook. The best thing to decrease abortions is to talk about sex openly, and not just "don't do it."  Our approach as parents is, "We hope you don't have sex before you're in a marriage relationship for x y z reasons. But if you do make that choice, here's what you need to know so you can be safe, and not bring further hardship on yourself or others."

And then, to have safeguards in place to let those who DO conceive know they won't be setting themselves and their child into a spiral of poverty that both will have a hard time exiting.

And also to make the process of Adoption (both for the birth parent, and for those seeking to adopt) an overall better and streamlined experience.

I dislike elective abortion, but something needs to be done to better signal support for the followup after a child is born who otherwise wouldn't have been wanted or prepared for by the birth parents.
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