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Author Topic: Major overhaul of Church Discipline  (Read 1440 times)

JLM

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Re: Major overhaul of Church Discipline
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2020, 10:33:27 pm »
Exact handbook language:  ​​Members partake with their right hand when possible.

Well, when my right hand is holding my wife’s hand it just isn’t possible to use it to take the sacrament.   So no big deal.
 
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Jen

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Re: Major overhaul of Church Discipline
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2020, 11:36:39 pm »
There's a ward in my Stake that taught a great lesson. There was a period of time where the deacons sat on the stand choir seats for a couple months rather than on the pews in front of the sacrament table. They did this for a month, and after Sacrament meeting once, the Bishop came to their Deacon's quorum meeting and asked them why they thought they did this now. There were many doctrinal reasons they came up with, trying to find a deep significance. At the end the Bishop nodded, smiled, and then said, "About 2 months ago, someone in the ward that meets before us threw up on those seats. I quickly invited you up here while the cleaning dried. You just kept coming up week after week. It's time to go back."

You can find deep significance in anything. And that doesn't mean it can't become truly meaningful and significant. It just doesn't necessarily mean it has anything to with the original impetus behind an action. I truly believe most of the things that are done were ALREADY done by other cultures, and God gave them NEW meaning and significance, divorcing them from their original reasons.

This is how lived religion works, and the Church leaders have the full right to do it. Some people like every single thing they do to be imbued with deep meaning. I just think it's worth acknowledging the process, like dyany does.

I'm reminded of this, from OSC:

Quote
“Call them stories. When things happen, we invent stories about them. About why they happened. That’s all science is, and history—stories about why things happen or happened. They are never, never true—never complete and always at least a little bit wrong, and we know it. But they’re true enough to be useful. I doubt our minds could even grasp the whole truth about anything—the nets of causality spread too wide to be held within a single mind. But the stories, the useful lies—we share those and pass them on and when we learn more we improve on them, or when we need different stories for new circumstances, we change them and pretend we always told them that way.”

This reminds me of the story about the lady that always cut the ends off of a roast before cooking it, because that's what her mom did and there must be a reason. Turns out her mom's pan was just too small for most roasts.

However, it's no skin off my nose to use my right hand to take the Sacrament if the Brethren saw it important enough to specify. "Whether by mine own voice or the voice of my servants...". If they're mistaken, it doesn't hurt anything. If they have deeper reason, someday I'll find out and be glad I complied.
 
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AndrewR

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Re: Major overhaul of Church Discipline
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2020, 05:45:51 am »
Quote
And with zero official explanation as to why or how this is supposed to bring us closer to Christ

Do we need one? Just like the temple experience, where very little is explained, can we not follow the instruction and let the Spirit help us?

I don't know. My parents joined the church in 1969, I was 3. I was taught, because they were taught, to take the Sacrament with the right hand. I don't believe I have ever not done so, in 51 years. I have always passed the tray with my right hand, even in my row. I have never served myself the Sacrament holding the tray in one hand and taking it with the other. I have done this growing up, have seven children, and so has my wife. Why? Because I was taught it - although I know for a while no one cared, I still did, it was a small part of my preparing myself for, and partaking of, the Sacrament.

Do I care that it is in the Handbook? No. Do I correct others? No. Do I believe that anyone who doesn't take it with the right hand has not fulfilled the requirements of the ordinance? No. But I do believe that anyone consciously taking it with the left hand just because it now says right hand, it being foolish, so say the least.
Don't ask me, I only live here.
Nauvoodle since March 2005 #1412
 
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Taalcon

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Re: Major overhaul of Church Discipline
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2020, 08:40:40 am »
Quote
No. But I do believe that anyone consciously taking it with the left hand just because it now says right hand, it being foolish, so say the least.

Something like this was part of my 11/12yo SS class lesson this past Sunday. How sometimes a part of pride is not doing something you would have done anyway, just because someone is now telling you to do it, or knowing someone might give you an obnoxious, somewhat prideful "Told you so," after you do it. It was specifically applied to Laman and Lemuel and how it was likely a part of why they refused to go along with some of the things Nephi was instructing them about. How it can be a  factor in the hardening of hearts, and causing a mist or covering of darkness to come over us if we consistently are unwilling to do anything anyone is trying to teach you, out of a refusal to let them know that you were taught by them.

Perhaps that lesson was preparing me for this.

I still think my initial thoughts and reactions are valid, but from the beginning, I said:
Quote
I'll get used to it. And I won't rebel and do it otherwise just because.

My experience is that those here who don't understand why something that seems wonderful and great to them might not cause the same reaction in others tend to like to understand the other perspective a little better. It's part of what I like about being here.
 
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kazbert

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Re: Major overhaul of Church Discipline
« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2020, 10:25:37 am »
Like ministering. We don't have such a word. So what we use is literally translated "service work".  Yeah, it works, but it's clumsy and leaves out many ideas attached to ministering...

I have wondered about similar translation issues. Example: Saying that "atonement" means "at-one-ment." It is clever and meaningful in some ways, but that only works in English.

Also, I have never liked the Old English in the KJV Bible, and I feel a touch of envy for the non-English-speaking members who don't have to deal with that. I know that each translation risks losing a bit of meaning, but I think there i more to be gained by readability than is lost through Spirit-guided translation. That decision is way above my pay grade, but that's what I feel.
If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under.
Ronald Reagan
 
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Taalcon

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Re: Major overhaul of Church Discipline
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2020, 10:44:40 am »
While the KJV is the official Bible for Church use/lessons, at least there is absolutely nothing stopping one from using other translations in their home study. While I might compare from time to time, when preparing lessons based on the OT/NT, I read them in other translations, and then when preparing my notes for class, generally use the KJV for in-class readings, and on occassion, include alternate translations to point out something where it's substantially clearer.

Right now, for example, in my personal study, I've been supplementing my Isaiah Nephi chapters with "The Jewish Study Bible", which uses the NJPS translation. In addition, I've been reading the Psalms in Robert Alter's translation. I highly recommend both of those. Once you're better able to translate the verses into understanding, and you get the sense and context, for me, it makes it MUCH easier to make thematic connections, and to see patterns.

Anyway. Tangent, but a favorite of mine :)
 
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pnr

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Re: Major overhaul of Church Discipline
« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2020, 11:35:44 am »
Using the full Stake High Council only in extreme circumstances is also a good move.

Not to mention the recent one where someone on the high council decided it was his job to break the c confidentiality of the council, which puts the church on the hook for the consequences of that.   And there is the fact that SP have decided to excommunicate when there was significant high council dissent, so what is the point of the council set up in most circumstances, since it is the SP who makes the decision, explicitly now.

And for the first time I've seen, the handbook says that SP are appointed judges in Israel along with Bishops.
Nauvoo 1270, Feb 2005
 
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Taalcon

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Re: Major overhaul of Church Discipline
« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2020, 12:34:45 pm »
Oh, BTW, because I know this had been discussed earlier, it's made even clearer here, regarding the wearing of the Garment.

Quote
38.8.49 - Temple Clothing and Garments
The garment should be worn beneath the outer clothing. It is a matter of personal preference whether other undergarments are worn beneath the temple garment.
 
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JLM

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Re: Major overhaul of Church Discipline
« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2020, 02:58:36 pm »
This makes sense since the newer tops do not seemed designed to accommodate wearing a bra over the top.  I think most women these days wear their bras underneath their garnents anyways.  Not sure why anyone would want to wear another layer under their bottoms though.  Maybe skin sensitivity reasons?
 
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Curelom

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Re: Major overhaul of Church Discipline
« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2020, 03:02:25 pm »
Back to the matter of which hand to use for taking the sacrament. I was told, don't remember by whom, that it had a symbolic connection to the parable of the sheep & the goats, where the sheep would have a place at the right hand of God.

I've always seen most folks use the right hand (except maybe parents who had their hands full with babies or toddlers & would have to use whichever hand they could spring free  ;D ). But I never thought enough about it to make it an issue in my mind.

OTOH ... I once observed an elderly sister next to me whisper to a young AP brother who was passing, "Right hand to pass the sacrament." That particular lady is well known for being fastidious & detail-driven & for making sure people are accurate. I hope the young man (I think he was really a boy) wasn't traumatized.
 
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Jen

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Re: Major overhaul of Church Discipline
« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2020, 03:03:31 pm »
I find bras infinitely more uncomfortable as the first layer.
 
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Curelom

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Re: Major overhaul of Church Discipline
« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2020, 03:10:07 pm »
I put on the garment first. I've adjusted to being able to do that with the new seamless style tops, but I suppose that might not be comfortable for everyone.

When I was endowed, I asked about this in the instruction portion & the matron told me the garment goes next to the skin as a symbol that we don't let anything get between us & the Lord. So this is yet another area where policies or practices can evolve & people are free to make personal interpretations as long as they don't contradict doctrine.

As for another layer under the bottom, maybe on a monthly basis depending on individual needs or comfort?
 
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AndrewR

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Re: Major overhaul of Church Discipline
« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2020, 03:22:19 pm »
Quote
As for another layer under the bottom, maybe on a monthly basis depending on individual needs or comfort?

Yes, on a full moon I find an extra pair of underpants useful as I turn into a werewolf.
Don't ask me, I only live here.
Nauvoodle since March 2005 #1412
 
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Taalcon

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Re: Major overhaul of Church Discipline
« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2020, 03:33:33 pm »
My wife, for several reasons, very much appreciates the clear stated acceptability to wear the bra underneath the garment, and especially has appreciated the adjustments in garment styles that make it much more practical to do so.

A little over a year ago, she helped escort a sister-in-law through the Temple. She learned the Temple workers were very explicit in telling her that absolutely NOTHING could come between the garment and the skin for important symbolic reasons.

Knowing of some of the specific health concerns she had, plus her own experience, my wife helped clarify that tradition wasn't written or expressed anywhere, and was a nice tradition, but shouldn't be seen as binding. The woman was sharing her opinion, not a Doctrine.

It's nice having this specifically to point to, and let those who were taught in such a way know that making this personal choice for whatever reason does not in any way need to make them believe they are declaring that they are choosing to put anything between them and their covenants.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2020, 03:40:56 pm by Taalcon »
 
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CrowGirl

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Re: Major overhaul of Church Discipline
« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2020, 04:16:21 pm »
Quote
on a full moon I find an extra pair of underpants useful as I turn into a werewolf.

 ;D ;D ;D
Jump off the cliff and build your wings on the way down.
-Ray Bradbury
 

 


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