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Author Topic: The New Abolitionist, Get Rid of ALL Prisons?  (Read 524 times)

dyany

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Re: The New Abolitionist, Get Rid of ALL Prisons?
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2020, 09:27:46 pm »
While I am a believer in UBI, in part because of the many studies that have shown it to be effective in many ways, I do not believe it will eliminate as much crime as people think. Crime is less desperation (though there is some of that) and more either a result of past trauma or being taught a sense of entitlement, sometimes even a joy in making other people suffer.  This is proven by the fact that if you have 10 poor people from a horrible upbringing/past, and 10 poor people who were brought up in relative safety and love, 9 of the first group could be given a lot of money and have all their needs met, and they will still lie, cheat, steal, abuse, and hurt others. 9 of the 2nd group could have every physical thing taken away and they will still avoid thievery as much as possible and be less violent and selfish when they do. 1 of each group will defy even those expectations.

IOW, there will always be crime because of the fallen nature of man. UBI would help REDUCE it, but until we can stop every bit of abuse and neglect of children, every act of selfishness or thoughtlessness, and every messed up brain, we will always have at least some crime.
 
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kazbert

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Re: The New Abolitionist, Get Rid of ALL Prisons?
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2020, 01:31:48 am »
I think much of the crime is due to multi-generational conditioned helplessness. The children are raised to believe that they have no chance of success -- no chance to pursue a dream. It is a horrible thing for parents to crush their children's dreams.
If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under.
Ronald Reagan
 
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Enochscion

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Re: The New Abolitionist, Get Rid of ALL Prisons?
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2020, 06:11:15 pm »
Something I find interesting is that the Law of Moses makes no provision for a system of incarceration. That might just have been a reflection of their cultural context, but if not it might indicate that the Lord doesn't care for that particular system.

Instead, the Law of Moses seemed to rely soley on fines and restitutions for not capital offenses, and execution for capital offenses. I'm a strong believer than the death penalty is more humane than life imprisonment, but that's from a Gospel perspective where death isn't the end. Those who believe that death means the absolute end of a person likely see it quite differently.
 
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Roper

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Re: The New Abolitionist, Get Rid of ALL Prisons?
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2020, 06:31:55 pm »
I also think there was pragmatic reasons the Law of Moses didn't have incarceration: When the bulk of the Law was established, starting with the Ten Commandments, Israel was a nomadic people. They couldn't build a prison in the form of a secure permanent structure. They couldn't have a "traveling prison." The logistics would have required too many resources. They couldn't just let convicts go free. Convicts would prey upon the people and could become a source of intelligence for Israel's enemies.
All grown-ups were once children...but only few of them remember it. ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "The Little Prince."
 
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Jason

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Re: The New Abolitionist, Get Rid of ALL Prisons?
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2020, 09:30:02 pm »
Supposedly prisons and incarceration as we know them are a relatively newer construct, meant to more humanely sole out punishments, rather than corporeal punishment.
 

AndrewR

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Re: The New Abolitionist, Get Rid of ALL Prisons?
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2020, 05:01:39 am »
Quote
I'm a strong believer than the death penalty is more humane than life imprisonment

I agree, and from the same perspective. Mistakes happen. But they happen the other way too, with disastrous consequences. Take the early release in the UK of a convicted terrorist. He was being followed by armed police who, at the moment of his vicious attack on others, shot him dead.

We don't have a death penalty in the UK - so instead we have a police force who wait for the moment to pounce, and then execute the individual. Sure seems like a death penalty - but one that allows others to be hurt, or killed, in the process.

A doctor, who violated 70+ women with unnecessary vaginal and breast examinations, including a 15 year old girl, often without gloves just received THREE life sentences - which means he will serve a minimum of...  ... wait for it ...


... fifteen years - 15 - he should never be let out! Not ever!

We have become far too lax in our society.
Don't ask me, I only live here.
Nauvoodle since March 2005 #1412
 
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kazbert

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Re: The New Abolitionist, Get Rid of ALL Prisons?
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2020, 10:24:27 am »
Quote
I'm a strong believer than the death penalty is more humane than life imprisonment

I agree, and from the same perspective. Mistakes happen. But they happen the other way too, with disastrous consequences. Take the early release in the UK of a convicted terrorist. He was being followed by armed police who, at the moment of his vicious attack on others, shot him dead.

We don't have a death penalty in the UK - so instead we have a police force who wait for the moment to pounce, and then execute the individual. Sure seems like a death penalty - but one that allows others to be hurt, or killed, in the process.

A doctor, who violated 70+ women with unnecessary vaginal and breast examinations, including a 15 year old girl, often without gloves just received THREE life sentences - which means he will serve a minimum of...  ... wait for it ...


... fifteen years - 15 - he should never be let out! Not ever!

We have become far too lax in our society.

It is the numerous examples such as those that make me grateful that there is always a divine reckoning awaiting the unrepentant. Those who do not receive justice in this life will receive it in the next. But it is also spiritually healthy for the abused to forgive, even as the judges are obliged to pass righteous judgement in this life.
If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under.
Ronald Reagan
 
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Scruffydog

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Re: The New Abolitionist, Get Rid of ALL Prisons?
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2020, 03:42:34 am »
The prison systems that we know today really emerge in the nineteenth century, building on developments in the eighteenth century. Previous to that, jails held people before their trial, and then for a short period before their sentence was carried out - execution, flogging, branding, or amputation; there were some who were held for years but that was rather unusual. Things changed with the Enlightenment when people began to think that this was all rather medieval. Jeremy Bentham, the utilitarian philosopher, came up with the Panopticon as a more enlightened form of dealing with criminals. They would be in a single cell where they could be observed by unseen warders. The idea was to give them decent conditions so they didn't die of disease, keep them away from the warders so that there would be no more corruption, and that they would learn to behave properly in a situation where they were kept away from bad influences and had lots of time to contemplate their situation. He never got to build any, but his ideas were very influential on the development of new systems in the US: the Pennsylvania system and the Auburn system. They both took the principles of the Panopticon and tried to make them practical. The Pennsylvania system had prisoners kept in isolation, where they worked in their cells, and had an exterior exercise area that they used alone. The Auburn system brought prisoners together for work, but they were not allowed to communicate. The problem with both systems was that they resulted in poor mental health because of the solitary nature of the confinement, and the original concept was quickly overwhelmed by the practical issue of numbers that meant isolation became impossible. The Panopticon remains very influential in the US and is the basis for Supermax prison, while in northern Europe there have been attempts to go in a different direction, where the convicts are treated as though they are in a hostel and can use sharp knives, mix with the warders, and don't spend long periods locked in their cells.
 
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kazbert

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Re: The New Abolitionist, Get Rid of ALL Prisons?
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2020, 04:34:51 am »
My wife wants to be a cop when she grows up. Has taken a couple of classes related to the U.S. criminal justice system, and she loves watching crime-solving series. She was a special ed teacher for several years, too.

 Just an FYI, she taught me there is a difference between a jail and a prison. The jail is for alleged bad guys waiting trial and those with convictions of minor infractions. Prison is for the convicts of harder-core crimes.

One of the problems with many proposed progressive prison reforms is that it assumes that the inmates can be and/or want to be rehabilitated. A lot of inmates won't or can't be rehabilitated and will figure out how to game the system -- pretend to be reforming if it will get them out of prison. It's hard to tell the difference. My wife has what I believe is a gift of the Spirit -- the discernment of spirits. While teaching her special ed classes she could see in the eyes of her students whether they were spiritually dead or alive -- too damaged to be awakened versus capable of being reformed. I know that God can heal anything, but "can" versus "will" are different. I think the behavior of the spiritually damaged will be taken into account in God's judgement.
If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under.
Ronald Reagan
 
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