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Author Topic: Change In Ceremonial Temple Clothing  (Read 743 times)

dyany

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Re: Change In Ceremonial Temple Clothing
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2020, 05:50:11 pm »
I appreciate the supportive comments. I must add, though, that it really doesn't matter how many people say that they don't mind the wait, it doesn't matter that I'm "getting ready to see Heavenly Father," none of that matters. The anxiety is gonna feel what it's gonna feel. And knowing that even if every single person in that room claimed they didn't mind, that at LEAST one of them is lying 'to be nice,' doesn't help either. I am clumsy and sloppy enough--despite decades of work and practice--that I am almost always the last one ready, even among a room of seniors.  The only things I have found that lessen the anxiety are 1. If I am the only patron in the room so no other patrons CAN be waiting for me, or 2. The very rare occasions where someone else takes longer to get ready than me, in which case I am filled to bursting with relief and gratitude (but not annoyance at the slower person. How's that for hypocrisy?).

Jason: be gentle with your father. I doubt he would have anxiety to my level, but I have found for myself that having a body that used to work ok (never great) and now is a dysfunctional, humiliating pile of crap that impedes my being able to do most of things I want and need to do rather than facilitates--well, it's a horrible thing. And being in a situation, ANY situation, that highlights (regardless of the well-meaning efforts of others) the loss of functionality and autonomy, is unpleasant.
 
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LMAshton

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Re: Change In Ceremonial Temple Clothing
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2020, 09:54:40 am »
Dyany, I'm so with you on all of that. I have general anxiety disorder, so I'm pretty filled with anxiety for just about anything. And with my lack of coordination, I'd be amongst the last, too. I haven't been to the temple in years, and frankly, it's unlikely that I'll go again just because of my physical limitations. But if I did, I'd be right beside you sharing all your anxiety.
 
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mosquito

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Re: Change In Ceremonial Temple Clothing
« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2020, 02:51:05 pm »
I do not sit until the last person is ready to sit.  I am  grateful for the opportunity to stand a while longer. Sitting for long periods of time can be be hard, with all the joints stiffening up, etc.
 
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Jen

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Re: Change In Ceremonial Temple Clothing
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2020, 03:32:51 pm »
I’m just seeing a lot of evidence that we should all give each other a lot of grace and patience in the temple. I think everyone is doing their best. Thankfully that has been my experience in 22 years plus of temple attendance.
 
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Taalcon

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Re: Change In Ceremonial Temple Clothing
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2020, 03:52:36 pm »
It's interesting seeing these perspectives. I always finished dressing and then immediately sat down so people wouldn't feel they were keeping me standing. I never felt impatient - If someone takes longer, what does it matter to me? It gives me a few more moments of quiet contemplation to myself before the ritual continues. That's been my perspective.
 
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Roper

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Re: Change In Ceremonial Temple Clothing
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2020, 08:55:21 pm »
It never occurred to me that people would feel anxiety about ceremonial clothing. This is a new understanding for me. So here's a situation and a question: If the person next to me is struggling with some aspect of the clothing, and is taking longer, should I a) quietly offer to help, b) stand quietly next to them so they don't feel like they're last, or c) sit down so I don't draw any more attention to them? I suspect the answers will be similar to, "It's different for every person, so there's not one best answer." Which, I guess, is okay. I'm just thinking that if I was the one struggling (and probably will be, some day) then I would want help. But I understand it may be different for someone else.
All grown-ups were once children...but only few of them remember it. ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "The Little Prince."
 
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Patty Rain

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Re: Change In Ceremonial Temple Clothing
« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2020, 12:52:55 am »
....  But when the WHOLE ROOM is already waiting on me, JUST waiting, waiting, waiting, having one person waiting AND standing does NOT make me feel better at ALL!

I worried about that.  I know that if I felt everyone was standing and waiting for me, even with the kindest of motives, that would probably make me very uneasy.

So, I mostly don't do that.  I put on the robes slowly, and do everything really slow in a non-obvious way.  And then I kind of act like I'm checking everything over.  But then, I'll just sit down eventually.

I've noticed that since President Nelson uttered the line something like "Is it any wonder a righteous man would desire to stand when a righteous woman enters the room?" in his recent conference talk to the women's session, several men in each session (in the temple that I frequent) remain standing until all of the women sit down.

Now that would drive me a little nuts.
Time for a change.  I am yungmom, but have wanted a new username for some time.
 
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dyany

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Re: Change In Ceremonial Temple Clothing
« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2020, 10:40:05 am »
Quote
If the person next to me is struggling with some aspect of the clothing, and is taking longer, should I a) quietly offer to help, b) stand quietly next to them so they don't feel like they're last, or c) sit down so I don't draw any more attention to them?

I am sure, as you said, it is different for everyone, but for me, the answer would be c. Option a tells me that you are not only tired of waiting, but that you were SO tired of waiting, you felt it necessary to take matters into your own hands. In past years, in the Boise temple, there were MANY times that temple workers (and occasionally patrons) stepped in to 'help' me. They rarely even asked, just started fixing. It was incredibly humiliating and was a major factor in my choosing to no longer go to endowment sessions for about a decade. I know I wasn't the only one humiliated by this, however, because I heard from local temple worker family members that they were told a few years ago that they were never supposed to do that anymore unless asked, even if there were small mistakes in how the patron had arranged the clothing. So I'm guessing there were complaints.
 
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TurkeyLurker

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Re: Change In Ceremonial Temple Clothing
« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2020, 10:40:37 am »
It never occurred to me that people would feel anxiety about ceremonial clothing. This is a new understanding for me. So here's a situation and a question: If the person next to me is struggling with some aspect of the clothing, and is taking longer, should I a) quietly offer to help, b) stand quietly next to them so they don't feel like they're last, or c) sit down so I don't draw any more attention to them? I suspect the answers will be similar to, "It's different for every person, so there's not one best answer." Which, I guess, is okay. I'm just thinking that if I was the one struggling (and probably will be, some day) then I would want help. But I understand it may be different for someone else.

I'd say ask to help.  Help if they want.  Otherwise sit down.

Went to the temple last night.  I didn't consciously stand and wait.  I didn't rush through anything, and sort of ended up "naturally" being close to the last.

No one has removed the string yet, it looks like.  At least we all had them in my session.  And the plastic, too.
 
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TurkeyLurker

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Re: Change In Ceremonial Temple Clothing
« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2020, 10:42:34 am »
Quote
If the person next to me is struggling with some aspect of the clothing, and is taking longer, should I a) quietly offer to help, b) stand quietly next to them so they don't feel like they're last, or c) sit down so I don't draw any more attention to them?

I am sure, as you said, it is different for everyone, but for me, the answer would be c. Option a tells me that you are not only tired of waiting, but that you were SO tired of waiting, you felt it necessary to take matters into your own hands. In past years, in the Boise temple, there were MANY times that temple workers (and occasionally patrons) stepped in to 'help' me. They rarely even asked, just started fixing. It was incredibly humiliating and was a major factor in my choosing to no longer go to endowment sessions for about a decade. I know I wasn't the only one humiliated by this, however, because I heard from local temple worker family members that they were told a few years ago that they were never supposed to do that anymore unless asked, even if there were small mistakes in how the patron had arranged the clothing. So I'm guessing there were complaints.

Back in the day, it used to bug me when temple workers would "help" without being asked.  I think they've all stopped that, as I haven't seen it in years.
 
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dyany

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Re: Change In Ceremonial Temple Clothing
« Reply #40 on: January 24, 2020, 11:02:31 am »
It would be awesome if the directive were church-wide. I know, however, that some workers (older women tend to be the most egregious in this, from what I've seen) struggle to keep this rule. They might smile and nod when they are given the directive, but when they see 'errors' in the clothing arrangement, they are unable to restrain themselves from fixing something 'wrong,' especially in the temple.

Asking, in my opinion, is 98% as bad. It tells me that the feelings of impatience and 'need to fix this' are still just as powerful, but you've been taught not to jump in, so you add the asking as a formality.

Personally, my propensity is to take initiative. If I know I'm going to struggle with the clothing for some reason, I would make arrangements for assistance before I even entered the room. If I were already there and suddenly found myself far less capable than I expected, I would motion over a worker and ask for help, as I know that's a big reason they are there. I am of the mind to believe that, due to the nature of the temple and what it takes to get there, most patrons are of a more self-reliant nature similar to this. However, I do know some people who don't think ahead, and won't ask for help, but who consider their personal floundering a loud enough request for help, and will then be offended if "no one even offered to help me."  Personally, those kind of people drive me nuts, but I know they exist.
 
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Hobbes

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Re: Change In Ceremonial Temple Clothing
« Reply #41 on: January 24, 2020, 11:20:57 am »
Being on the young side with no physical ailments, I haven't been the last one since my first and maybe second time ever at the Temple. But part of that is because, even when my first time when I'd never even seen these clothes before much less worn them, I still found it somewhat humiliating and unpleasant to have two or three men surronding me, touching and tying and adjusting. So I go as fast as I can because I don't want to go through that. I couldn't go again for a year+ after I was endowed so when I went again I was still very slow, and I could see the workers staring me down, ready to pounce anytime my hand slipped or something wasn't going right. That's how I got in the habit of speeding through as fast as possible.

There's no real way to communicate with body language that you don't mind waiting for others, but I do my best to finish, sit down, and look relaxed and totally uncaring how long anyone takes. It's certainly what I'd want people to do for me in that situation. All I can say is I appreciate all of you here who go despite knowing you'll take a long time and likely be last to dress. I hated that when it was me, and don't know that I'd go if it was me again.
 
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Roper

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Re: Change In Ceremonial Temple Clothing
« Reply #42 on: January 24, 2020, 11:46:48 am »
I asked my wife. Here's what she said: "If I'm obviously struggling with part of the clothing, and nobody around me helps, and they just all sit down or stand there, I would be pretty resentful."

Sigh. What a minefield. I think I'll have to go with the default "Follow the Spirit." If I get it wrong, hopefully others will be merciful.
All grown-ups were once children...but only few of them remember it. ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "The Little Prince."
 
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CrowGirl

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Re: Change In Ceremonial Temple Clothing
« Reply #43 on: January 24, 2020, 12:01:12 pm »
That’s the best we can do, Roper.
Jump off the cliff and build your wings on the way down.
-Ray Bradbury
 
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Roper

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Re: Change In Ceremonial Temple Clothing
« Reply #44 on: January 24, 2020, 12:11:34 pm »
I received my endowment back when the "Five Points of Fellowship" was still part of the ceremony, and we still used the shield during washing and anointing. Now, I wonder how many people stayed away because of all the touching.

I actually miss those.
All grown-ups were once children...but only few of them remember it. ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "The Little Prince."
 

 


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