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Author Topic: The BOM - reality or not  (Read 2305 times)

pnr

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Re: The BOM - reality or not
« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2020, 04:16:37 pm »

This is borderline apostasy.

What is the value in labeling it (much less suggesting intent to lead astray).

Is there a reason you cannot just ask how the author comes to that position in light of whatever evidence you may know that undercuts the author's point of view?   Or you could just say, "I don't think that could be right because of X, Y, or Z.

Isn't our world a better place when we seek to understand another's position, where they are coming from, a different world view than our own?  And when we do not presume worst case, and then when we articulate why we cannot agree with that idea/comment/position?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 03:01:46 pm by pnr »
Nauvoo 1270, Feb 2005
 
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JLM

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Re: The BOM - reality or not
« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2020, 11:29:54 pm »
So is borderline apostasy any thing like a borderline personality?
 
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Iggy

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Re: The BOM - reality or not
« Reply #47 on: January 14, 2020, 04:06:07 am »
 
So is borderline apostasy any thing like a borderline personality?

 :o ;D
 
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LMAshton

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Re: The BOM - reality or not
« Reply #48 on: January 14, 2020, 04:42:43 am »
So is borderline apostasy any thing like a borderline personality?

 :o ;D
My thoughts exactly, Iggy. :D
 
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JLM

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Re: The BOM - reality or not
« Reply #49 on: January 14, 2020, 08:55:58 am »
To be honest though, this discussion has left Madonna's "Borderline" song stuck in my head for the last 12 hours.
 
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pnr

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Re: The BOM - reality or not
« Reply #50 on: January 14, 2020, 03:03:05 pm »
And poking fun at people doesn't help either.
Nauvoo 1270, Feb 2005
 
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Roper

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Re: The BOM - reality or not
« Reply #51 on: January 14, 2020, 04:07:11 pm »
Is somebody poking fun at another person?

I thought it was witty to juxtapose the concept of borderline personality with the concept of borderline apostasy. One is an intense fear of abandonment, and the other is intentional abandonment.

And then there's the connecting the word to Madonna's song.

I didn't see anything directed towards a person. Or am I missing an implication, here?
All grown-ups were once children...but only few of them remember it. ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "The Little Prince."
 
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pnr

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Re: The BOM - reality or not
« Reply #52 on: January 14, 2020, 04:58:58 pm »
That's just how it came across.   I'm sure no one would have meant it that way.
Nauvoo 1270, Feb 2005
 
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JLM

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Re: The BOM - reality or not
« Reply #53 on: January 14, 2020, 06:08:22 pm »
Being one of the individuals who was accused of "borderline apostasy", my comments were meant to poke a bit at the absurd, superlative nature of the rhetorical devise leveraged against me.  I believe defending one's self with humor is entirely appropriate given the circumstance.

As for BP vs BA, I was noting that both involve the manipulation of others to get the attention they crave.

 
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Jason

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Re: The BOM - reality or not
« Reply #54 on: January 18, 2020, 02:17:21 am »
Back to the original question, i would find it very difficult if the church were to claim that the Book of Mormon is no longer considered literal, but rather spiritual only. I have come to terms that the Nephite and Lamanite civilizations may not have been quite as extensive we previously believed. There may have been other civilizations in the Americas during that same time period with whom the Lamanites and Nephites may have intermarried. The geography was likely much more localized and regional, rather than spanning 2 continents. Why would a civilization spanning 2 continents agree that a small hill in New York was the best place for a final battle? Traveling by foot takes a long time.

Some changes I can manage. But I might not make it through the church upending such a crucial underpinning of its claims. It would bring the veracity of many more subjects into question.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2020, 02:19:48 am by Jason »
 
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Roper

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Re: The BOM - reality or not
« Reply #55 on: January 18, 2020, 02:27:46 am »
There is an interesting theory that the Book of Mormon geography most closely matches that of the Malay peninsula, with the supporting reasoning that wind and ocean currents could have carried Mulekites, Jaredites, and Nephites there much easier than fitting it into a Central/North America geography. On the other hand, it makes the traditional reading of 1 Nephi 13 (Columbus) more problematic, as well as the location of Cumorah and burying/finding the plates.

I tend to believe that most of the Book of Mormon geography is around the Great Lakes region. Although getting there from ancient Israel would be a journey with its own set of problems--such as sailing around continents and across oceans on small boats.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2020, 03:06:27 am by Roper »
All grown-ups were once children...but only few of them remember it. ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "The Little Prince."
 

Taalcon

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Re: The BOM - reality or not
« Reply #56 on: January 18, 2020, 07:29:59 am »
Quote
Why would a civilization spanning 2 continents agree that a small hill in New York was the best place for a final battle?

Quote
as well as the location of Cumorah

Point that might be helpful - it's been recognized that 'Cumorah' was only a name later applied by others to the hill in NY (Joseph only started using it about a decade after the fact), and should not necessarily be identified as the one where Moroni's plates where acquired by Joseph.

 There's no contemporary claim that Moroni identified it to Joseph as such. In fact, Mormon 6:6 suggests that the hill called Cumorah is explicitly where our Book of Mormon was NOT hidden. “Therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.”" - the source records were hid in Cumorah - not the abridgment, or anything appended to the record!

It's similar to the referring to the Nephite Interpreters as the Urim and Thummim. Other associates of Joseph started calling them that quite a bit before he went along with it as well, because of the biblical parallel. Close readings of history (Thanks, Joseph Smith Papers!) and the BoM text can do some interesting things to our assumptions!
« Last Edit: January 18, 2020, 07:38:48 am by Taalcon »
 
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Jason

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Re: The BOM - reality or not
« Reply #57 on: January 18, 2020, 09:25:24 am »
As has been noted, there are many members of the Church of Jesus Christ, as well as other Christians, who do not view all of the stories in the Bible has having literally taken place, or perhaps they were embellished significantly. Such as the creation of the earth, the ages of the patriarchs, the flood of Noah, the exodus from Egypt, giants, and perhaps a few others. There is certainly lack of physical and archaeological evidence of many of its stories.

Those who do not take the literal view of those events still hold them as spiritually instructive, so that the people of their times and cultures could understand something more about God. It also seems obvious to me that there is writer's bias in the Bible, as well as a little bit in the Book of Mormon, favoring their own people over foreign cultures, writing things in a way to prove their points and promote unity in their culture.

While some Christians do not believe all of the Bible as literal events, there are many who do. To some literalists, suggesting a figurative interpretation to the more "fanciful" portions of the Bible is tantamount to apostasy and shows a profound lack of faith.

I am comfortable not being a literalist with respect to the Bible. Part of the Church's teachings are that the Bible is the Word of God as far as it is translated correctly. However, the church has been quite adamant in its assertions that the Book of Mormon is translated correctly and that it is a historical record. Moroni really visited Joseph Smith. Lehi really left Jerusalem. The lack of archaeological artifacts in the Americas has always been a difficulty, at least if the cultures had widespread steel, buildings, major highways, spread to cover the entire land, etc. A smaller group that wasn't quite as advanced as the writers wanted it to be could more easily have vanished.

But if the church were to come out and say that the Book of Mormon did not contain at least some literal, historical records, then it would be a profound blow to many people. Some might continue to believe, some might leave the church. It might become a similar division to the Bible literalists and the non-literalists.
 
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Panama Jones

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Re: The BOM - reality or not
« Reply #58 on: January 31, 2020, 06:58:15 pm »
Sorry for being so late to join the already over conversation. I personally have an agnostic relationship with the Book of Mormon in terms of its historicity. I see evidence for it being historical and I see evidence for it not being so. (I tend to favor Blake Ostler's idea of the Book of Mormon as a modern expansion of an ancient source).

What I do absolutely know is that I feel inspired by the Holy Ghost when I read it. I feel taught and uplifted and so much more. I do not want to ever be without it in my discipleship.

As for whether something must be true to be of value, I also love love love the parable of the Prodigal Son and many others. I do not need them to be historical to speak to my soul and bring me closer to God.

If something is historically true that's a bonus. I know how God has acted in my life. That's the historical truth I need most of all.

 
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pnr

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Re: The BOM - reality or not
« Reply #59 on: February 01, 2020, 04:20:27 pm »
My take if the Church came out with a statement that the book of mormon is made up would be that mortals often make mistakes and we just don't know everything yet and probably won't until after the second coming or after the millenium. But I don't have to worry about it because the Gospel of Jesus Christ, incorporates all truth and sometime we will know what absolute truth is in every subject area, but until then we are always going to have only a mortal understanding of what is then known.
Nauvoo 1270, Feb 2005
 
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