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Roper

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What did Jesus mean when He said...
« on: November 12, 2019, 09:38:09 pm »
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." NIV Matt 7:21

"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?" NIV Luke 6:46

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven." 3 Nephi 14:21.

The New Testament account doesn't make it clear if Jesus was addressing the large multitude who was with him or just the called disciples, who were also with him. The Book of Mormon account makes it clear that Jesus was addressing all who were with him. So, I take it to mean that this is a teaching for all who claim to follow Jesus, not just for called disciples.

I understand the necessity of the "doing" part in addition to the "saying" part.

What did Jesus mean when he singled out those who say (or call him) "Lord, Lord?" I understand that it's an English translation of the Greek Kyrie, which is equated with the Hebrew YHWH (Jehovah--the God of Israel.) So...who calls out to him, "Lord, Lord" and what do they want? Why did Jesus feel that this was common enough to address?
All grown-ups were once children...but only few of them remember it. ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "The Little Prince."
 

Iggy

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Re: What did Jesus mean when He said...
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2019, 10:00:49 pm »
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." NIV Matt 7:21

"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?" NIV Luke 6:46 

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven." 3 Nephi 14:21.

The New Testament account doesn't make it clear if Jesus was addressing the large multitude who was with him or just the called disciples, who were also with him. The Book of Mormon account makes it clear that Jesus was addressing all who were with him. So, I take it to mean that this is a teaching for all who claim to follow Jesus, not just for called disciples.

I understand the necessity of the "doing" part in addition to the "saying" part.

What did Jesus mean when he singled out those who say (or call him) "Lord, Lord?" I understand that it's an English translation of the Greek Kyrie, which is equated with the Hebrew YHWH (Jehovah--the God of Israel.) So...who calls out to him, "Lord, Lord" and what do they want? Why did Jesus feel that this was common enough to address?

Read from the Joseph Smith New Testament Translation; Matt. 7:21 Verily I say unto you, it is not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, that shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven; and it clears it up 
 
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Roper

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Re: What did Jesus mean when He said...
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2019, 11:15:01 pm »
Thanks, Iggy. That doesn't answer my questions, however. Who is Jesus describing when he refers to those who say, "Lord, Lord," and what does that phrase even mean?
All grown-ups were once children...but only few of them remember it. ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "The Little Prince."
 

AndrewR

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Re: What did Jesus mean when He said...
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2019, 04:33:34 am »
I take it to mean those who have chosen Christ as their Lord. I think that would mean Baptised members of the Church. Though it could be extended to anyone who chooses to follow God (Allah, YHWH, etc.) and does not do what they promise to do in the following.

The agree to follow Lord, Lord (God), they pray to Lord, Lord (using that calling out), but do not do what is expected of them.
Don't ask me, I only live here.
Nauvoodle since March 2005 #1412
 
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Taalcon

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Re: What did Jesus mean when He said...
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2019, 09:20:42 am »
Some want someone to overthrow the Old System without wanting to be a part of the specific New System Jesus is offering. IE, he's seen as a means to an end. They're against part of what he's against, but not for all the things he is for.

So they'll support him as a leader in the Revolution (they'll shout his praises, wear his team colors, change their facebook profile picture to one of support, etc) but after that overthrow is accomplished? They have no intention to honor him as the true King, and the rightful authority.

They want him to defeat the Old Way, but don't want his New Way. And Jesus is saying, 'the problem with that is, as long as you are that way, I promise you'll get exactly what you thought you wanted.' - which includes not having access to the security, protection, and peace and additional benefits offered to willful citizens of the Kingdom.

It's kind of like the parable about when a devil is cast out, and the house is swept clean without anything coming to fill in the place, (like the Spirit of God) then it leaves room for more troubles to come and take residence aftwerwards. The initial victory isn't the end of the story.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2019, 09:37:01 am by Taalcon »
 
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Iggy

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Re: What did Jesus mean when He said...
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2019, 11:52:39 am »
Thanks, Iggy. That doesn't answer my questions, however. Who is Jesus describing when he refers to those who say, "Lord, Lord," and what does that phrase even mean?

From the heading of the chapter: Jesus concludes the Sermon on the Mount—He commands, Judge not; ask of God; beware of false prophets—He promises salvation to those who do the will of the Father. link ~ https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/matt/7?lang=eng

Then from the New Testament Seminary Teacher Manual: Summarize Matthew 7:21–23 by explaining that not everyone who declares belief in Jesus Christ will enter His kingdom, but those who do the will of Heavenly Father and come to know Him will enter the kingdom of heaven. link ~ https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/new-testament-seminary-teacher-manual/matthew/lesson-12-matthew-7?lang=eng  scroll way down to Matthew 7:15-27.

My answer to your question is, those who do the will of Heavenly Father and come to know Him will enter the kingdom of heaven. IOW those who are baptized, confirmed, endowed, temple marriage AND who do the will of Heavenly Father AND come to know Him.
 
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dyany

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Re: What did Jesus mean when He said...
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2019, 09:01:26 pm »
I see them as 'checkbox Christians.'

Outside of the Church, they are those Christians who proclaim to be saved and make little effort to actually follow the Savior.

Inside the Church, I see them as those who might go to the temple weekly, but treat their children like crap. Or who do their ministering by going by and, seeing their ministeree in crisis, say, "Oh we see that you're busy, we'll come back later, call us if you need anything!" Or who go to Church and get annoyed when the speakers or class instructors aren't 'interesting' or 'entertaining,' but put zero effort into learning the scriptures or doctrine themselves, including zero to little participation in class.
Basically, hypocrites.
The gospel is about BECOMING, with the Savior's help. That takes choices and effort--and not superficial effort, but true, internal effort that will change you into someone more Christ-like. Doing the check-boxes of the Church without trying to change yourself inside is like breathing when there's no oxygen in the air.  Do it all you want, but it ain't gonna do any good and you're still gonna die.
 
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cook

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Re: What did Jesus mean when He said...
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2019, 11:15:30 pm »
I've read that either in the real culture or just in the scripture, calling a name twice (usually God or Christ) means it's urgent they listen and listen carefully what follows. Like Martha, Martha and often Jerusalem, Jerusalem... there are many instances in both old and new testaments.

So maybe it refers also to people who only call on the Lord in prayer when in an urgent need?
 
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Roper

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Re: What did Jesus mean when He said...
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2019, 12:18:53 pm »
So among the multitude following Jesus, there were

- those who verbally acknowledged Jesus as the God of Israel
- those seeking deliverance from political oppression
- those with the conviction to follow Him
- those who claimed to be saved but didn't live his teachings
- those who call on Jesus but only in times of need

I imagine there were also those who were just going along with their friends, and those who were curious, and those who were essentially spying, and those looking for a business opportunity, and possibly a hundred other motivations--kind of like all those who claim to be Christians today. And, there are the true disciples who sometimes go astray, but they hear their Shepherd's voice and follow Him.

No matter what the motivation, Christ made it clear that Kingdom of Heaven is for those who actually do the will of God. Words are not enough.
All grown-ups were once children...but only few of them remember it. ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "The Little Prince."
 
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Enochscion

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Re: What did Jesus mean when He said...
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2019, 11:55:39 pm »
This is normally the exact kind of question I would have, but in this instance I think it might not actually have much historical explanation.

In this particular instance, I’m not sure that he was speaking regarding a significantly sizable group of contemporary people. I think he was explicitly referring to people who would exist after his mortal life. We know there are several instances where he does speak of such future things, such as the persecutions his followers will experience after his death.

In this case, I think of it as referring to anyone who uses his name as if they were a disciple, but is actually a hypocrite. The language makes me think of priestcrafts, televangelists, and social Christians who sing praises to his name on a Sunday and don’t walk the walk on Monday (particularly common in some areas, such as the US South where the casual atheism in the US isn’t as widespread, but casual Christianity and hypocritical devotion is even more widespread).*

*That isn’t a statement of prejudice against the South. I served my mission there and it is an unexpected cultural observation I experienced that others who have lived there would likely agree with.
 
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Roper

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Re: What did Jesus mean when He said...
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2019, 09:04:50 am »
Thanks, Enochscion. For the 18 years I lived in Texas, I found that there were Baptists who were disciples of Christ in the best sense of the word. They worshiped on Sundays and then sought to conduct their daily lives in harmony with Christ's teachings. My closest friends in Texas were those kind of Christians. Unfortunately, there were many self-proclaimed "Evangelicals" who used their church attendance to prove their devotion, but they treated everyone else with disdain.

After I moved to Utah, I found the exact same pattern among Mormons.
All grown-ups were once children...but only few of them remember it. ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "The Little Prince."
 
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Enochscion

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Re: What did Jesus mean when He said...
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2019, 09:10:02 pm »
Yep. It's really just statistics. Religious hypocrisy makes up a certain percentage of religious experience. It might vary somewhat, but probably not by much. So the more religion that exists in a location (such as Utah or the South), the more religious hypocrisy that will exist based on pure statistics.

I think some people have a hard time and judge religion negatively when they really just need a brief lesson in statistics. It works exactly the same way with all the good parts of religion.
 
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dyany

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Re: What did Jesus mean when He said...
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2019, 10:35:55 pm »
Enochsion, I can see statistics being a large factor, but I have to disagree that it's really "just statistics," for this reason: once it reaches a certain level of saturation, other factors are generated which then increase the effects.

For instance, in an area where you belong to a religious entity which is a relatively low percentage of the population, the % of hypocritical attendance will be lower than it would be in an area where the overall percentage of people in the community who claim your religion is high (I would say about 35% or more, with the hypocrisy likely going up as the % goes up). Why?  Because when you have a high percentage of the population that claims the same religion in the area, these extra factors are added in:
-local history that lots of people find important
-family traditions, especially as the high % is generally indicative that most people live near where they grew up, so family is around and a factor.
-social and political clout. Once you reach a certain % of the population, it gets to the point where many people (especially people of your religion) start to make assumptions that you belong to that religion, start to take that for granted and it's so easy to find another 'member' that they will gravitate to them rather than 'risk' a non-member, so in general, they show preferential treatment to people they believe may be part of their particular "group."  I can't tell you how many times I have seen this as a factor in hiring practices and politics up here in Idaho.

Growing up in Oklahoma, there were challenges, but most of them were physical (long distances to church, low numbers) or due to outside forces (such as lies told about us by evangelical congregations), and most members were converts or transplants. But the difficulties and lack of general social/vocational/political benefit stripped away non-testimony based reasons to go, so our 'activity' numbers were probably lower, but our hypocrisy numbers were WAY lower. If you didn't really believe it, you weren't a hypocrite. You just didn't go. There was no reason to.
Up here, it's kind of the opposite. There's TONS of reasons to go outside of testimony. You would feel far more awkward not going when 3 of your 5 neighbors are in your ward, they all know you from the tools app, and you have to interact with them. Not to mention the benefits of those same people being far more keen on the idea of watching your kids in a pinch if they actually saw you in relief society a few times.
So, no, I'm quite sure it's not 'just' statistics.
 
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AndrewR

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Re: What did Jesus mean when He said...
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2019, 06:37:46 am »
I think Dyany has it right, to an extent. I think it is what we are seeing in the UK. Only the very believing came to church when I was younger. As the third generation, and fourth in some cases, has moved into adulthood we have seen more apathy (better word than hypocrisy). This apathy, lack of desire to do "lower" callings, belief that they should be Bishop, or their husband should, etc., has led to them eventually leaving. But staying with your social group, you grew up with, still happens unless you make a clean break.

Don't ask me, I only live here.
Nauvoodle since March 2005 #1412
 
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cook

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Re: What did Jesus mean when He said...
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2019, 11:35:59 pm »
The statistics perspective is interesting. In Finland 70 % of people belong to the Lutheran church. It has declined a lot during my lifetime, when I was a kid it over over 90 %. Yet you don't see any of those effects. Perhaps because it is not an "active" part of people's lives and perhaps because in our nature faith is a private thing. Regardless of religion being taught in schools etc.

My experience is same as Andrews. When I was a kid the church was relatively new. You had a few people in the whole country who were 3rd generation members, most were converts or children of converts. If you didn't believe, you didn't come. Now the young single adults and adults of those whose grandparents were converted are of course either strong or leave the church but there are more and more of those who come at times or even regularly just because there are friends and family and you don't have something else to do at that time. Apathy is a good word for it. There is no desire to take active part of anything. Here they certainly don't want any higher callings, because that would mean they'd had to at least somewhat believe, they'd have to do the thinking process of do they believe, but filling "lower" callings isn't an option either, because they have to actually do something. Some of them may accept a calling, because that's what you're supposed to do, but they just never appear to do it.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2019, 09:25:38 am by cook »
 
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