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Author Topic: Guns in the Handbook  (Read 536 times)

Sparky

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Guns in the Handbook
« on: August 05, 2019, 08:28:30 pm »
I remember someone mentioning sometime about references to guns in the Church Handbook. I've looked at the Handbook and didn't find what I thought had been mentioned. I've tried to go back through posts, but I'm not finding it that way either. I think I commented on the post, but I don't see how to search my comments. The comment was something about information on guns being a good topic for handbook training. Since I have handbook training at the next Ward Council meeting on Sunday, I remember thinking it would be a good topic to share. Especially since the YM had gun training and target shooting in June, and the YW are doing it this month.

So, . . . if anyone knows anything about the mention of guns in the handbook, I'd appreciate it.
 

Taalcon

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Re: Guns in the Handbook
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2019, 09:04:28 pm »
Only reference I'm aware of to firearms:

Quote
21.2.4 Firearms
Churches are dedicated for the worship of God and as havens from the cares and concerns of the world. The carrying of lethal weapons, concealed or otherwise, within their walls is inappropriate except as required by officers of the law
 
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N3uroTypical

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Re: Guns in the Handbook
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2019, 09:43:51 pm »
In 2016, the church released some security guidelines to leaders in the US and Canada.  One of the bullet points in the section on Keeping Leaders and Members Safe in Church Facilities says:

Quote
Except for sworn law enforcement officers, the Church strongly discourages anyone from carrying weapons into meeting houses or Church events: “The carrying of lethal weapons . . . within [Church] walls is inappropriate except as required by officers of the law” (Handbook 2: Administering the Church [2010], 21.2.4; italics added). Priesthood leaders should understand the laws within their jurisdiction. If there are questions about local laws, the stake president calls the Office of General Counsel as instructed in the handbooks.
What-about-ism is pointless. I like to think most people's responses to such arguments would be, "Yup. That person, who happened to wear the same political jersey I do/did, was totally wrong on that, too."
-Taalcon
 
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Sparky

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Re: Guns in the Handbook
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2019, 08:10:49 pm »
Thank you both. I appreciate your info.
 

Taalcon

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Re: Guns in the Handbook
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2019, 11:30:59 pm »
 
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Sparky

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Re: Guns in the Handbook
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2019, 08:24:35 am »
Taalcon, thank you for noticing that.
 

Curelom

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Re: Guns in the Handbook
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2019, 10:10:05 pm »
It also expands the reference to say "carrying of lethal weapons." The heading is still "Firearms," but lethal weapons could also include other objects.
 
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Beau Zoe

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Re: Guns in the Handbook
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2019, 10:31:02 pm »
Does anybody here think that Church congregations will now become known as "soft targets" or the proverbial "gun free zones" that appear to attract mass shooters?  There are plenty of people that already do not like us.  If somebody wans to "get famous" or go out in a blaze of glory by killing a bunch of "Mormons," does anybody here think it will happen soon?  Or maybe not at all?  What do y'all think?

Beau Zoe
Forgotten, but not gone
 

Palmon

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Re: Guns in the Handbook
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2019, 02:18:57 am »
I do.
 

pnr

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Re: Guns in the Handbook
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2019, 09:27:33 am »
The idea that the handbook change makes us soft targets is just overthinking.    People who are mad at us aren't generally violent and with no respect for human life.    Those who invade our churches now are about calling us to ber better because we're messing up so badly.   Others are mad at their families some how.   Does anyone believe that those who shot up synagogues and churches did so because they thought they were soft targets?
Nauvoo 1270, Feb 2005
 
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Roper

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Re: Guns in the Handbook
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2019, 09:40:44 am »
I think the hardness of the target is part of the shooter's consideration, just as bullies and predators select targets who are weaker. You don't see mass shooters selecting military bases or police stations. They select soft targets such as schools, shopping malls, churches, and demonstrations--places with lots of people and little protection.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2019, 09:43:14 am by Roper »
 

Iggy

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Re: Guns in the Handbook
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2019, 10:17:40 am »
Does anybody here think that Church congregations will now become known as "soft targets" or the proverbial "gun free zones" that appear to attract mass shooters?  There are plenty of people that already do not like us.  If somebody wans to "get famous" or go out in a blaze of glory by killing a bunch of "Mormons," does anybody here think it will happen soon?  Or maybe not at all?  What do y'all think?

Beau Zoe
Forgotten, but not gone
Welcome back Beau Zoe - A simple answer to a rather complicated topic - No.

 
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N3uroTypical

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Re: Guns in the Handbook
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2019, 12:16:50 pm »
Does anybody here think that Church congregations will now become known as "soft targets" or the proverbial "gun free zones" that appear to attract mass shooters?
What Roper said.  When you've decided to go kill someone, you start planning your attack, finding when/where you can catch them unarmed and away from help.

It's not like the sight of a gun-free zone broadcasts "must kill them" rays into everyone's heads, and the killers are pulled, zombielike, towards the signal.

I mean, I'm glad people are understanding that gun-free zones are where just about all (with a tiny handful of notable exceptions) mass shootings happen, but it's important to keep rational perspective.  The vast majority of firearm homicide isn't a media-festival mass shooting. 
What-about-ism is pointless. I like to think most people's responses to such arguments would be, "Yup. That person, who happened to wear the same political jersey I do/did, was totally wrong on that, too."
-Taalcon
 

JLM

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Re: Guns in the Handbook
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2019, 01:00:10 pm »
I'm curious about everyone's thoughts on some cities labeling the NRA as a terrorist organization.  On one hand, I get where they are coming from.  The proliferation of guns and the fetishization of them as part of gun culture is a significant contributing factor to gun violence in the USA and has been harmful the the safety and prosperity of its citizens.  On the other hand, given that we do have limited gun right, having an organization that helps protect those rights seems appropriate. 

Yet here is where I think the NRA has lost its way.  It used to be primarily a gun safety organization that focused on training the public on safe gun handling and was pretty neutral regarding specific gun restrictions.  Over time the organization seems to have been coopted by gun manufacturers and sellers, whose primary interest is in making money by a
selling as many expensive guns as possible.  They use tactics of fear and occasionaly use racial overtones as part of their propaganda.  We have also learned that there has been significant corruption within the top leadership of the org.

A majority of legal gun owners support additional safeguards such as 100% background checks and limitations on ownership of military style weapons, yet the NRA digs in with a slippery slope fallicy.  Reasonable people can conclude that the NRA no longer represents the best interests of the American people and may be outright hostile to the nation's wellbeing.

From a 1A perspective, the NRA should be subject to the same content neutral, time, place and manner standard of other political speach, but that does not give the NRA the right to commercial benefit from local governments.  My hope is that with some pressure, the NRA membership will oust the current leadership and get back to it's core purpose as a gun safety organization.

Other thoughts?
 

N3uroTypical

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Re: Guns in the Handbook
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2019, 04:44:41 pm »
My wife took self-defense in the home training a few years ago from our local small town police force.  They used the current NRA curriculum.  According to this NRA training, these are all far more valuable than owning a gun:

- Deterrence (living in a safe neighborhood, good lighting, no bushes by the front door to conceal bad guys, strong locks, a dog.)
- Avoidance (not flashing cash as you walk around in public, conceal signs of wealth like fancy cars and expensive jewelry, stay out of bad parts of town, don't walk down a dark alley)
- Evasion (running the crap away is usually the best option.  Most home invaders are counting on you not being there, they want your stuff, not you.  If you can't escape, barricade yourself, call the cops, yell loudly about how you have a gun while on the phone with them)


That said, yes indeed the NRA is highly politicized and puts a lot of energy into it's lobbying and voter mobilization efforts.  I talk to a lot of crusty old lifetime NRA members who are ticked off at the leadership for losing it's way.  I don't know if there have always been folks this ticked off and it doesn't help, or if this is a new thing and it might help.
What-about-ism is pointless. I like to think most people's responses to such arguments would be, "Yup. That person, who happened to wear the same political jersey I do/did, was totally wrong on that, too."
-Taalcon
 

 

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