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Roper

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Re: Gathering
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2019, 08:03:51 pm »
"Literal" literally  ;) means, "according to the letter." So the literal gathering of Israel can mean the gathering of Israel according to scripture/letter/law.

D&C 133 is all about the second coming of Christ, which the scriptures treat with a lot of metaphor. Even in D&C 133, there are plenty of metaphors. Verses 5 and 7 teach about going out from Babylon. We understand that to be a spiritual metaphor. Verse 7 teaches about gathering from the four winds and from one end of heaven to the other. Verse 10 refers to Christ as the Bridegroom. Verse 13 refers to the mountains of the Lord's house (temples, family history.) Verse 18 refers to Christ as the Lamb and having the Father's name written on our foreheads. Verse 29 teaches of barren deserts and pools of living water. 31 teaches of hills trembling. In the midst of all those metaphors, we have the teaching of north countries, flowing ice, and highways. I'm inclined to believe that those, too, are metaphors in a literal gathering.
 
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Palmon

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Re: Gathering
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2019, 10:23:13 pm »
In the plan of salvation, does it make a difference?

 Seems to me to be one of the signs that point toward the 2nd coming. The Lord says it will be fulfilled, whether it is one by one or in a major migration.
 
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cook

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Re: Gathering
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2019, 01:46:12 am »
We do know that north refers to not knowing. Yet living in the north I like to think of it as a location too. But I don't think that 10 tribes being lost means they are not known to exist, just that they are lost to the gospel. Though there are in Russia many small nations who have been lost from others until recently. So I don't feel there will be actual nations we know nothing about coming as a whole to the church and bringing their scriptures - but I've seen it when many people join the church in a short time span when the borders have been opened.

In Finland we have this national saga or whatever called Kalevala. It as compiled by a writer who collected these stories (mostly kind of songs) from then Finland now Russia area. The order he wrote it is his interpretation and he did not include everything he collected. The songs/poems had  been carried on for a long long time.

There are many references to Christ as well. Some (and I'm not talking about members of our Church now) believe it is because he added the Christian  meanings to it, some believe that during times when Christianity came here those had been added, some believe they were original predictions of things to come. Who knows.

I also find it interesting how the topic on gathering is not just something we think about. There are many here who have studied it, at least since the 1700's and have interpreted that Finns and definitely some nations within Russia are part of the lost tribes.

I won't say that's the case, but if it is, I won't be surprised. People like the Sami's in Northern scandinavia and Finland and Russia may just be something with they distinct dna's and cultures - or then not. I don't know any Sami's having been baptised because they live so far out where there is no church anywhere near.

 
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mirkwood

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Re: Gathering
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2019, 08:27:20 am »
What practical purpose?  It is one of the signs of the times preceding the Second Coming.  We will also get their books of scripture...a third testament of Jesus Christ.  Seems important to me.

Other hidden people?  How about the people of Zarahemla, the Jaredites, the Nephites/Lamanites?  Christ told the Nephites at the time of his resurrection that he was going to visit other sheep that were not lost to Father.



"The Lost Tribes are not lost unto the Lord. In their northward journeyings they were led by prophets and inspired leaders. They had their Moses and their Lehi, were guided by the spirit of revelation, kept the law of Moses, and carried with them the statutes and judgments which the Lord had given them in age past. They were still a distinct people many hundreds of years later, for the resurrected Lord visited and ministered among them following his ministry on this continent among the Nephites. (3 Ne. 16:1-4; 17:4.) Obviously he taught them in the same way and gave them the same truths which he gave his followers in Jerusalem and on the American continent; and obviously they recorded his teachings, thus creating volumes of scripture comparable to the Bible and Book of Mormon. (2 Ne. 29:12-14.)

"In due course the Lost Tribes of Israel will return and come to the children of Ephraim to receive their blessings. This great gathering will take place under the direction of the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for he holds the keys of 'the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.' (D. & C. 110:11.) Keys are the right of presidency the power to direct; and by this power the Lost Tribes will return, with 'their prophets' and their scriptures to 'be crowned with glory, even in Zion, by the hands of the servants of the Lord, even the children of Ephraim.' (D. & C. 133:26-35.)" (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 455-8)

-- Bruce McConkie


Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., The Way to Perfection, p. 130.
   “The Ten Tribes were taken by force out of the land the Lord gave to them. Many of them mixed with the peoples among whom they were scattered. A large portion, however, departed in one body into the north and disappeared from the rest of the world. Where they went and where they are, we do not know. That they are intact we must believe, else how shall the scriptures be fulfilled? There are too many prophecies concerning them and their return in a body, for us to ignore this fact.”

Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection,  p. 131. 
   “These lost tribes were in a body somewhere when the Savior visited the Nephites on this continent. We believe he went to them and established his Church among them with an organization similar to that given to the Nephites.”


Joseph Fielding Smith, The Signs of the Times, p. 44-45.
   “You know, a lot of people have an idea that these tribes that are lost are not lost at all, they are just coming in among us all the time.  They are not coming in among us all the time.  We are gathering scattered Israel, but those tribes have not come yet.  They will come when the Lord gets ready.”


Joseph Fielding Smith, The Signs of the Times, p. 185-186.
   “First let us say something further about the restoration of the ten ‘lost tribes of Israel.’ Strange to say, notwithstanding all that has been written, there are many members of the Church who think that these ‘lost tribes’ were scattered among the nations and are now being gathered out and are found through all the stakes and branches of the Church. They reach this conclusion because the general opinion is that these tribes went into the North, and it is the northern countries from whence most of gathered Israel has been found. . . .Whether these tribes are in the north or not, I am not prepared to say. As I said before, they are ‘lost’ and until the Lord wishes it, they will not be found. All that I know about it is what the Lord has revealed, and He declares that they will come from the North. He has also made it very clear and definite that these lost people are separate and apart from the scattered Israelites now being gathered out. If this be not true, then the commission of Moses to the Prophet Joseph Smith is without meaning, wherein we read: ‘Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.’ The statement that the tribes are to be led from the north harmonizes perfectly with the words of Jeremiah (Jer. 16:14-15) and Section 133, verses 26 to 34.”


Joseph Fielding Smith, The Signs of the Times, p. 187-188.
   “Another striking statement pointing to the fact that these people are now in a body in preparation for their return is the statement by the Prophet Joseph Smith at the conference held in Kirtland, June 3 to 6, 1831. At this conference the Prophet said: ‘John the Revelator was then among the ten tribes of Israel who had been led away by Shalmaneser, king of Assyria, to prepare them for their return from their long  dispersion.’ The Savior also bore witness that these tribes were in a body like the Nephites and he would visit them. (3 Nephi 15:20 and 16:1-4.)”


James E. Talmage,  The Articles of Faith, p. 340-341.
   “From the scriptural passages already considered, it is plain that, while many of those belonging to the Ten Tribes were diffused among the nations, a sufficient number to justify the retention of the original name were led away as a body and are now in existence in some place where the Lord has hidden them. To them the resurrected Christ went to minister after His visit to the Nephites, as before stated. Their return constitutes a very important part of the gathering, characteristic of the dispensation of the fullness of times.”


John A. Widtsoe,  Evidences and Reconciliations, p. 405-406. 
   “Assyria took Samaria, and carried Israel away into Assyria, and settled them in Halah and in Habor, by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes.’ A similar statement is made in 1 Chronicles 5:26. That is all we hear of them. From that time they are literally lost to history, except for a passage in the Apocrypha, 2 Esdras, 13:40-47:
   ‘Those are the ten tribes, which were carried away prisoners out of their own land, in the time of Osea the King, whom Salmanasar the King of Assyria led away captive, and he carried them over the waters, and so they came into another land. But they took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt, that they might there keep statutes, which they never kept in their own land. And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow passages of the river. For the Most High then showed signs for them, an held still the flood, till they were passed over. For through that country there was a great way to go, namely of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth. Then they dwelt there until the latter time; and now when they shall begin to come, the Highest shall stay the springs of the stream again, that they may go through.’
   Many fantastic theories have been set up concerning the location of the lost tribes. . . .The view most commonly held by members of the Church is that a body of Israelites are actually living in some unknown place on earth, probably in the north. In support of this opinion are the common knowledge that the earth is not yet fully explored; and also numerous scriptural references to a gathering of Israel from the north countries. Jeremiah speaks of the house of Israel coming ‘out of the north country.’ (Jeremiah 3:18; 23:8; 31:8-11; Hosea 1:11) In the Book of Mormon, also, there are references to Israel coming out of the north in the latter days. Ether prophesies of those ‘who were scattered and gathered in from the four quarters of the earth, and from the north countries.’ In modern revelation the north countries are mentioned in connection with the restoration of the ten tribes. ‘They who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence.’ (D&C  133:26) Moreover, in the Kirtland Temple, Moses appeared to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery and ‘committed unto us the keys of the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.’ (D&C  110:11.)”

Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 91.
   “The Ten Tribes were taken by force out of the land the Lord gave to them. Many of them mixed with the peoples among whom they were scattered. A large portion, however, departed in one body into the north and disappeared from the rest of the world. Where they went and where they are, we do not know. That they are intact we must believe, else how shall the scriptures be fulfilled? There are too many prophecies concerning them and their return in a body, for us to ignore this fact.”


Bruce R. McConkie, The Millennial Messiah, p. 319.
   “And so it now behooves us to learn why it is one thing to gather Israel from the four parts of the earth and yet another to lead the Ten Tribes from the land of the north (D&C 110:11.).


Neal A. Maxwell,  Plain and Precious Things, p. 12. 
   “Moreover, still ‘other sheep,’ a third grou—neither of Jerusalem nor the Americas—heard Jesus' voice and were visited by Him. (See 3 Nephi 16:1-4; 17:4; 18:27.) Will there be an additional or third group of convincing and witnessing scriptures? Yes! Will the lost Ten Tribes—those of ancient Israel who did not remain with Judah, as well as a portion of Benjamin—bring their own records and scriptures? Yes! And eventually, by three scriptural witnesses, the Messiahship of Jesus of Nazareth will be finally established.”

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AndrewR

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Re: Gathering
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2019, 08:42:29 am »
Quote
I understand that to mean that while some are scattered, the majority were taken as a whole and that when they are brought forth, they will carry with them books of their dealings with the Lord, ie, further scripture.

I think it quite possible that there is a half-way position.

A group, or groups, like unto the Nephites, that were still extant at the time of the Resurrection, and visited by Christ. Who, like the early Church and the Nephites, fell to Apostasy.

At this point they "mingled" with non-Israel and become more scattered. Their records hidden up by a "Moroni".

This seems more plausible than a vast group living under the earth's crust.


I am always amazed at some of what LDS do believe - eg, the Gulf of Mexico is where the City of Enoch was - and when it returns it will fill the Gulf again. Maybe it was taken in a hurricane (names Hurricane Enoch).
Don't ask me, I only live here.
Nauvoodle since March 2005 #1412
 
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mirkwood

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Re: Gathering
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2019, 09:15:24 am »
I am always amazed at some of what LDS do believe - eg, the Gulf of Mexico is where the City of Enoch was - and when it returns it will fill the Gulf again. Maybe it was taken in a hurricane (names Hurricane Enoch).

That belief comes from this:

March 30, 1873: At evening prayer circle: President Young said Joseph the Prophet told me that the Garden [172] of Eden was in Jackson County, Missouri, and when Adam was driven out of the Garden of Eden, he went about 40 miles to the place which he named Adam ondi Ahman, and there built an alter of stone and offered sacrifice. That altar remains to this day. I saw it as Adam left it, as did many others, and through all the revolutions of the world, that alter had not been disturbed. Joseph also said that when the City of Enoch fled and was translated, it was where the gulf of Mexico now is; it left that gulf a body of water. (Wilford Woodruff Journal)
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Taalcon

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Re: Gathering
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2019, 09:22:52 am »
This seems to be very important to you. I'm curious as what resonates so strongly about this particular interpretation to you. Is it connected with something else for you that I might not be seeing?

There's a lot of places where an idea is such that many can have divergent views, and and it's a point of interest, but not something understood as essential. Interesting marginalia.

Yet there are other ideas I've understood as marginalia that, for others, a particular traditional interpretation is seen as non-negotiable.

And in some cases, I sort of get it. Some things, a massive paradigm or understanding of the frame-story used to make sense of the plan of salvation for you would require to be adjusted if a traditional understanding were to be upended.

I understand, for example, what accepting biological evolution would mean to a traditional paradigm of creation, and further how a strong belief in vivaparous spirit birth would strongly effect one's convictions about the purposes and ends of Marriage Sealings. I've seen people for whom each of those traditional understandings have been said to be clear deal-breakers, if the Church comes to settle on an adjusted understanding of those topics. They would feel the Church is no longer for them.

But this idea about a Hidden Tribe? I don't particularly get it. Is there some other fundamental idea this would change or adjust if it turned out not be as some have traditionally understood it? Is this a deal-breaker issue for you, or someone else you've known?

I'd never really thought about this particular issue, but wonder what it might be connected to in some minds that might not have been connected in mine. The history of scriptures involves stories and poetic and symbolic imagery being adjusted to best teach and impress on the minds an IDEA. We see such imagery being adjusted and reworked throughout the scriptures we already have. Time and experience keeps the principles, but the language and imagery and stories used to understand and express such things change.

But, again, my question is what would this fundamentally change for you if it turns out this understanding was off? Is it seen as part of a thread that would begin unravel something else? What would that 'else' be?

sometimes answers to these questions help me understand a paradigm someone holds a bit better, and can contribute to clearer conversation rather than talking past each other, each assuming the other has a same understanding of the words and concepts being used or connected, when they do not.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 09:29:49 am by Taalcon »
 
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mirkwood

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Re: Gathering
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2019, 10:59:06 am »
Other then watching for the signs of the times it is of no particular importance to me.  I just find it interesting with all the statements from prophets and apostles that so many LDS refuse to take it as a literal event.
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AndrewR

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Re: Gathering
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2019, 03:38:38 pm »
I am happy with the idea that the City of Enoch was in a part of the Gulf, but the entire thing would make it the largest city of all time - by a country mile.
Don't ask me, I only live here.
Nauvoodle since March 2005 #1412
 
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Taalcon

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Re: Gathering
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2019, 03:49:08 pm »
Those beliefs also seem popular with those who also hold to the idea that the Genesis reference to the earth being divided in the days of Peleg (IE, into nations/tribes of peoples in the context presented)  must have actually been a reference to the historical sudden physical ripping apart of Pangaea into the modern continents.

Had a Gospel Principles teacher try to explain that to a class just a couple of years ago.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 03:52:40 pm by Taalcon »
 
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JLM

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Re: Gathering
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2019, 07:34:50 pm »
I find millenialism to be problematic.  It's foundation in scripture is tenuous, it disincentives solving social, economic and environmental injustices, and it tends to induce behavioral conformity through fear rather than persuasion. 

The whole 10 tribes thing is particularly baffling and wholly unnecessary for a restoration narrative.  The church has deemphasized this traditional teaching for quite a while and has moved more toward a figurative gathering approach.  The idea of a hidden civilization under the arctic ice cap (yes, I had a YM adviser once teach this in quorum meetings) is indefensible.  To me this whole subject falls squarely in the sandy foundation category and should be quietly let go.
 
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Roper

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Re: Gathering
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2019, 08:20:37 pm »
I heard the same thing in YM. We must have had the same advisor ;) Did you grow up in Idaho?

I had a Deacon's quorum instructor who taught us to avoid eating peanut butter and honey sandwiches because of Proverbs 25:27.

 

dyany

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Re: Gathering
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2019, 01:27:12 am »
Roper: um, how did he reconcile that with Isaiah 7:15 saying, "butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good" ???

I tell you what, tons of issues crop up with people looking beyond the mark when it comes to details in the scriptures. That's why it's so absolutely vital to have the Spirit explain to you what it means.
 
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Jason

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Re: Gathering
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2019, 09:17:47 am »
I have found that most of the scriptures used to justify an intact and hidden tribe of Israel to be leaps well beyond what the scriptures say. First, look at the people. In the Old Testament time they fell into apostasy very quickly. This even happened to the Nephites many times, eventually permanently. The Isrealites were prone to apostasy. Second, when Jesus says he is going to visit them, it almost sounds like he would visit a group that did not really know who he was. To what extent did he set up his church? It could have been on a smaller scale, specific and ideal for what that group of people was ready for, just as we receive what we are ready for.
 
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Palmon

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Re: Gathering
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2019, 07:20:33 pm »
I just saw this published on the former Meridian Magazine site.

Did Jesus visit Russia after His resurrection

https://latterdaysaintmag.com/did-jesus-visit-russia-after-his-resurrection-2/
 
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