Welcome to New Nauvoo


Author Topic: Gathering  (Read 1351 times)

cook

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 459
  • Thanked: 460 times
  • Country: fi
    • View Profile
Gathering
« on: July 15, 2019, 01:18:14 am »
Yesterday I attended a baptism service where most was done in Tagalog, some in English, in Finland.

We don't have many baptisms in the country in general and about half of them that happen, at some years more, are people born somewhere else.

Since president Nelson became a prophet, there has been many talks about gathering the Israel. This summer I made a project to study it a bit more in the scriptures. What are your thoughts on gathering?

So it started with the beginning of this dispensation, and parts of the gathering is missionary work and genealogy + temple work.
But it's not fully on yet, because there are places where proselyting cannot be done, even if the church is there. I feel the use of internet is a tool in gathering too, but even that is not accessible as it is everywhere.
With patriarchal blessings we know there are people of all the tribes in the church already.

I know there are theories that whole nations will be brought at some time to the knowledge of others and to the knowledge of the gospel. How do you feel, will there be something like that or will it more of what is happening now, that one by one, people of all nations will find the gospel?

What about the other scriptures? Will the come about as the Book of Mormon did, "out of nowhere" or could some of them be such that already exists but no one has realized and said they actually contain the truth also?

Are you excited for the gathering and want to be part of the work?
 
The following users thanked this post: Roper

AndrewR

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 532
  • Thanked: 713 times
  • Country: gb
    • View Profile
Re: Gathering
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2019, 08:56:35 am »
I know there are a few fables with respect to the missing tribes. However, for me it is quite simple. They have been scattered, and are now being gathered. We are in the gathering now.

The Keys of the Gathering of Israel, as committed by Elias to JSj and OC, 3 April, 1836, are the keys for Missionary Work. Missionaries, of all varieties (Full Time, member) are Israel Gatherers.

As to any other scriptures - I am not holding my breath for them to arrive anytime soon.
Don't ask me, I only live here.
Nauvoodle since March 2005 #1412
 
The following users thanked this post: Iggy, Roper, Taalcon

Taalcon

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 624
  • Thanked: 1038 times
    • View Profile
Re: Gathering
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2019, 10:15:37 am »
The Gathering of Knowledge is what fascinates me. Most of Joseph's revelations didn't contain ideas in and of themselves that were new. They existed elsewhere in the world, and in other faiths, philosophies, and texts. But how he was inspired to be aware of them and put them together in ways that had not been done before, is fascinating. 

I view the Church as a Gathering Place for truth that has been scattered. And that includes scientific knowledge. As more and more Truth becomes gathered and synthesized, it will make the message clearer to all to whom such truths resonate. It will be a beacon of Truth for those who seek it. the more truth that is gathered in, the more attractive it will be to honest truthseekers.

I don't think the goal of the Restoration is to to a specific point in Earth's past. It's a restoration of understanding how things truly are. And that will take a lot of gathering, and a lot of tearing down of old incorrect ways of seeing things, and some base assumptions about even how God works. But in the end, Truth will prevail.

I do think the labeling of people in tribes is more symbolic than anything, as its key purpose is to say, "You've been baptized, adopted in, you belong, and this gives you a unique identity within the covenant family. See yourself in the Sacred Story/Myth". And any connection to a unique historical tribal bloodline doesn't really make any sense at all to me. (Even Jesus took the idea of the pharisees claiming blood ancestry to show their being heirs of the covenant as worthy of his disdain). Since being Baptized adopts you into the Covenant, anyone who accepts the message is, essentially, for scriptural purposes, the Covenant People, or Israel. Don't look for pockets of secret Blood Israelite Clans to show up out of nowhere.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 10:26:57 am by Taalcon »
 
The following users thanked this post: Iggy, Roper

palmetto_gal

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 353
  • Thanked: 367 times
  • Country: us
  • Old forum #2268; registered 13 August 2006
    • View Profile
Re: Gathering
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2019, 12:52:36 am »
Since I work an evening shift and I am the only person in my department after 7 pm, I have the advantage of listening to audio books.  Just last week I listened to Born to Change the World by Brad Wilcox.  He delves into the tribes of Israel and the gathering of these tribes.  I learned details about the tribes (and also some of the traditions) that I had not known previously.  If you read or listen to it, I'd like to get your reaction.
 
The following users thanked this post: Roper

Panama Jones

  • Greenie
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • Thanked: 37 times
    • View Profile
Re: Gathering
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2019, 05:32:47 pm »
I used to be very literal in my view of the gathering, even believing that most of those baptized could trace their DNA back to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (following teachings from Joseph Fielding Smith, Brigham Young and Joseph Smith, among others). As I have matured over the years I have found that God is no respecter of persons and have come to see the gathering much more figuratively. That works better for me and my experience.
 
The following users thanked this post: LMAshton, dyany, Roper, Taalcon

Jason

  • MembersOnly
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 202
  • Thanked: 304 times
  • Country: us
    • View Profile
Re: Gathering
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2019, 06:23:16 am »
20 years ago on my mission there was a missionary that was quite convinced that being in the House of Israel was a very distinct, genetic marker, and that anyone baptized into the church had that genetic marker appear in their DNA. I thought then, and still think now, that this was not at all true. My reasoning at the time was the scriptures about Christ saying that lineage did not matter, that God could make House of Israel out of a rock. Also, how could being adopted into the House of Israel really be that important to eternal salvation when there were thousands of years of people born prior to the Old Testament Jacob/Israel, including the Jaredites. Also, many of the 12 patriarchs are not considered particularly righteous people, more especially by today's standards.

As a German missionary, I was quite fond of the scripture in Jeremiah, "Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the LORD, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks."

Fishers fish with nets and pull in vast amounts of converts. I compared that to early missionary work in England and Germany, and later missionary work in South America and a few other "productive" places. But the mighty hunters had a much smaller number of converts, but put in a whole lot more effort to find them from each mountain. There were many small towns that could be considered holes in a rock where we would find 1 person who was interested in learning more, even if they never joined the church.
 
The following users thanked this post: Iggy, Roper, Sparky, Taalcon

cook

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 459
  • Thanked: 460 times
  • Country: fi
    • View Profile
Re: Gathering
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2019, 04:04:28 am »
I've thought about that scripture also how genealogy often is work of digging under every stone and looking into ever crack of a rock to find that one person...

I agree with many of the thoughts mentioned. Yet for example living in the north and having seen how when it was possible, there seemed to be floods of people accepting the gospel when it became possible in Russia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania. There still are floods of them attending our temple - that there is something to that great numbers as well. Not necessarily that nations as a whole will find and accept the gospel but that many of them will. In Russia there are still so many "nations", distinct, in areas where the gospel doesn't yet reach (many of them related to us Finns), that it seems possible there will be a time when there will be many who will come (over the mountains...). The miracle of places opening up is the work of God and having seen it is just amazing.

Also I have often wondered why is it that even though the church has been here in a way or another since the 1800's, there's only about 5000 members in Finland. And it has been promised, in the dedicatory prayer of the country as well as the temple that there will be  a time of greater numbers.

My maternal dna (from the African Eve) does come through the Israel area, but so do most anyway and it was way before the scattering of Israel time. But it's there.

Missionary work has always been dear to me  and I've loved genealogy since a teenager. But somehow this sense of gathering has become different recently.
 
The following users thanked this post: Roper

mirkwood

  • MembersOnly
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 112
  • Thanked: 142 times
    • View Profile
Re: Gathering
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2019, 01:09:13 pm »
We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.


literal:  taking words in their usual or most basic sense without metaphor or allegory.




"He (God) has said, that the time is at hand for the Jews to be gathered to Jerusalem. —And we know it.  He has said, that the Ten Tribes of Israel should also be revealed in the North country, together with their oracles and records, preparatory to their return, and to their union with Judah, no more to be separated. —And we know it. 


-- Proclamation of the Twelve, Messages of the First Presidency, Vol. 1, p. 263, April 6, 1845.


“It is maintained by some that the lost tribes of Israel—those carried into captivity about 721 B. C.—are no longer a distinct people; that they exist only in a scattered condition, mixed with the nations among which they were taken by their captors, the conquering Assyrians. If this be true, and those tribes were not intact at the time Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery received the Keys of the Gathering, why did they make so pointed a reference to ‘the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north?’ And this, too, after a general allusion to ‘the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth.’ What need to particularize as to the Ten Tribes, if they were no longer a distinct people? And why do our Articles of Faith give those tribes a special mention?

-- Orson F. Whitney, Saturday Night Thoughts, p. 159-160.


“He burst the bonds of death, he conquered the tomb, and came forth with an immortal body filled with glory and eternal life, holding all the powers and keys he held while in the flesh. Having appeared to some of the holy women and the apostles, he then went and administered to the Nephites upon this continent, and from here he went to the ten tribes of Israel, and delivered to them the gospel, and when they return they will bring the history of the dealings of Jesus of Nazareth with them, while in his immortal body.

-- The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p. 26-27.


preppercop.blogspot.com
 
The following users thanked this post: Roper

mirkwood

  • MembersOnly
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 112
  • Thanked: 142 times
    • View Profile
Re: Gathering
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2019, 01:11:11 pm »
I have a ton more references on the lost Ten Tribes being in a body somewhere unknown to us, but I think these are pretty clear that the physical separation is literal.  Yes there are members of those tribes mixed into the genetic pool of the world, but the Ten Tribes are somewhere hidden in a body, waiting for prophecy to be fulfilled.  I'm always surprised why so many LDS are resistant to this.
preppercop.blogspot.com
 
The following users thanked this post: Roper

Taalcon

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 624
  • Thanked: 1038 times
    • View Profile
Re: Gathering
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2019, 01:42:04 pm »
We've made lots of updates in our understanding of gathering. Even Joseph did during his lifetime, not all of which were represented in his 1842 creed he prepared for a newspaper to sum up then-present beliefs (hence, the existence of no mention of Temples or Sealings or Endowments).

The idea of single body of Lost Tribe was a very popular 19th century trope. A very popular connected belief was that they lives Inside The Earth, Hidden From The Rest Of The World. Joseph and his contemporaries, in being given inspiration concerning their ultimate goal, would have absolutely defaulted to common belief in their thinking about the details until there was a need for correction.

Quote
I'm always surprised why so many LDS are resistant to this.

Connected to what we understand about the history of the world and the people, the idea of a modern single unified connected Tribe really doesn't make any historical or logistical sense. And has become theologically irrelevant.

Quote
but the Ten Tribes are somewhere hidden in a body,

They're hidden among humanity, unaware of their identity as part of God's eternal family. If someone is baptized, they become Israel within our doctrinal context. That's how it's been defined. Being part of the covenant family is literal. Literal does not require biological. Just as adoption literally makes someone a legal family member. We baptize, we declare or affirm or assign a lineage, and we gather.

In this context, Zion did begin to be built on the American Continent with the establishment of Temples. This began to be understood a bit more in the Nauvoo Era, and then in Utah, and beyond. It has expanded out from there. We continue to grow in our understanding.

Again, Joseph learned a lot more since he presented the outline in a creed, and you also know how he felt about the idea of unbendable creeds unwilling to allow for new light and knowledge.

Quote
I have a ton more references on the lost Ten Tribes being in a body somewhere unknown to us

I'm curious - what is the most recent of those quotes?

« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 01:59:35 pm by Taalcon »
 
The following users thanked this post: AndrewR, Roper

mirkwood

  • MembersOnly
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 112
  • Thanked: 142 times
    • View Profile
Re: Gathering
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2019, 03:12:20 pm »
D&C 133:26-34

26 And they who are in the anorth countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall bsmite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence.

27 And an ahighway shall be cast up in the midst of the great deep.

28 Their enemies shall become a prey unto them,

29 And in the abarren deserts there shall come forth pools of bliving water; and the parched ground shall no longer be a thirsty land.

30 And they shall bring forth their rich atreasures unto the children of Ephraim, my servants.

31 And the boundaries of the everlasting ahills shall tremble at their presence.

32 And there shall they fall down and be acrowned with glory, even in Zion, by the hands of the servants of the Lord, even the children of bEphraim.

33 And they shall be filled with asongs of everlasting joy.

34 Behold, this is the ablessing of the beverlasting God upon the ctribes of dIsrael, and the richer blessing upon the head of eEphraim and his fellows.
preppercop.blogspot.com
 
The following users thanked this post: Roper

mirkwood

  • MembersOnly
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 112
  • Thanked: 142 times
    • View Profile
Re: Gathering
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2019, 03:14:48 pm »
Ensign January 1982

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1982/01/israels-other-tribes?lang=eng


As I said, I'm surprised at the resistance of so many LDS to the reality that the lost Ten Tribes are hidden from us and will literally return as a body. 
preppercop.blogspot.com
 
The following users thanked this post: Roper

Palmon

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 433
  • Thanked: 490 times
    • View Profile
Re: Gathering
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2019, 03:20:15 pm »
Quote
But now I ago unto the Father, and also to show myself unto the lost tribes of Israel, for they are not lost unto the Father, for he knoweth whither he hath taken them.

I understand that to mean that while some are scattered, the majority were taken as a whole and that when they are brought forth, they will carry with them books of their dealings with the Lord, ie, further scripture.

Does it seem possible that there is anywhere on (in) the Earth that they live unknown to the rest of the world? With our knowledge, unlikely. However, I believe the Lord when He says His ways are not ours and that all things are possible to Him, to include hiding anything He wishes from us. (alternate universe, anyone? joking)
 
The following users thanked this post: Roper

Taalcon

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 624
  • Thanked: 1038 times
    • View Profile
Re: Gathering
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2019, 04:16:32 pm »
So is there a practical component to this aspect of belief in a Hidden Tribe at all? Or just one of those cool things that will happen someday?

It seems the purpose was to illustrate/paint a picture of the massive work in uniting the Covenant Family.

Missionary work seems completely severed from this, as it at some point, God will shatter a wall of ice, and a Full Society growing, reproducing over millennia and thriving (I assume with access to farming, animals, water, etc) will suddenly be shown to have been in hiding all these years in a zone with access to sunlight, but hidden from the rest of the world, AND kept physically separated from The Restored Church. For ... what?

It doesn't make sense as anything BUT an illustration. It has power that way. We have a story about family being broken. A picture of the family from that story coming together has power. Applying that to the new perspective of all of humanity as a broken family coming together has power. The use of it to teach is understood. "The gathering is like this." Just like how we have no idea how the atonement actually functions, but lots of expressions (many contradictory!) of what it is "like". It serves a purpose. It drives us to want it. And to act to receive it, and to make it so. So experience it for ourselves.

Keeping up hope for an actual people who are intentionally kept hidden from us for millennia, and who we are hidden from, to maybe someday suddenly reveal themselves serves ... what purpose?

Like, you have me seriously curious now. Are there some Latter-day Saints who watch Aquaman, see Atlantis, and think, "Maybe this isn't so far-fetched,  it's like this, but with Israelites?"
« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 04:18:20 pm by Taalcon »
 

Palmon

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 433
  • Thanked: 490 times
    • View Profile
Re: Gathering
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2019, 07:07:17 pm »
Has God ever separated a segment of society and later revealed their existence? The answer, of course, is yes. For what purpose?

« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 06:59:54 pm by Palmon »
 

 


* Recent Topics

topic Current Events - US Politics Edition
[Politics]
palmetto_gal
Today at 01:10:50 am
topic Home Improvement
[Everything Else]
Iggy
February 24, 2020, 10:24:23 pm
topic Likeable Leaders
[General Discussion]
Roper
February 24, 2020, 09:12:28 pm
topic Major overhaul of Church Discipline
[News of the Church]
kazbert
February 24, 2020, 08:54:19 pm
topic Cabin 2.0
[General Discussion]
palmetto_gal
February 24, 2020, 08:51:10 pm
topic The 1 true diet
[Health and Wellness]
LMAshton
February 23, 2020, 03:25:59 am
topic Squirrel
[Everything Else]
GoodyScrivener
February 23, 2020, 12:21:19 am
topic Gluten Free Sacrament
[Latter-day Saint Life]
Jen
February 22, 2020, 01:08:17 pm
topic Rambling by Iggy - book 2
[Member News]
LMAshton
February 22, 2020, 02:58:56 am
topic NEW GUIDANCE on TRANSGENDER
[News of the Church]
cook
February 22, 2020, 01:43:26 am
topic Needing directions to the Cabin
[General Discussion]
LMAshton
February 21, 2020, 04:39:30 am
topic Fat-shaming in modern culture
[Health and Wellness]
Jen
February 20, 2020, 02:50:08 pm

* Recent Posts

Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition by palmetto_gal
[Today at 01:10:50 am]


Re: Home Improvement by Iggy
[February 24, 2020, 10:24:23 pm]


Re: Home Improvement by Roper
[February 24, 2020, 10:00:31 pm]


Likeable Leaders by Roper
[February 24, 2020, 09:12:28 pm]


Re: Major overhaul of Church Discipline by kazbert
[February 24, 2020, 08:54:19 pm]


Re: Cabin 2.0 by palmetto_gal
[February 24, 2020, 08:51:10 pm]


Re: Cabin 2.0 by kazbert
[February 24, 2020, 07:50:50 pm]


Re: Cabin 2.0 by Curelom
[February 24, 2020, 05:30:42 pm]


Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition by Scruffydog
[February 24, 2020, 06:48:23 am]


Re: Major overhaul of Church Discipline by Roper
[February 23, 2020, 06:52:24 pm]


Re: Major overhaul of Church Discipline by Taalcon
[February 23, 2020, 08:39:51 am]


Re: The 1 true diet by LMAshton
[February 23, 2020, 03:25:59 am]


Re: Major overhaul of Church Discipline by LMAshton
[February 23, 2020, 03:24:10 am]


Re: Squirrel by GoodyScrivener
[February 23, 2020, 12:21:19 am]


Re: Major overhaul of Church Discipline by nitasmile
[February 22, 2020, 11:43:56 pm]

* Top Posters

Roper Roper
1611 Posts
Curelom
1292 Posts
dyany dyany
1019 Posts
N3uroTypical N3uroTypical
646 Posts
Taalcon
624 Posts

* Board Statistics

  • stats Total Members: 115
  • stats Total Posts: 12469
  • stats Total Topics: 892
  • stats Total Categories: 8
  • stats Total Boards: 32
  • stats Most Online: 76

  • averages Average Posts: 10
  • averages Average Topics: 1
  • averages Average Members: 0
  • averages Average Online: 20

* Forum Staff

AndrewR_admin admin AndrewR_admin
Administrator
dyany admin dyany
Administrator
Roper admin Roper
Administrator
LMAshton admin LMAshton
Administrator

* Calendar

February 2020
Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat
1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15
16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24 [25] 26 27 28 29

No calendar events were found.
SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2020, SimplePortal