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JLM

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Re: Church Worthiness Interviews
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2018, 06:31:29 pm »
Insects and animals?!    :o.  Ew!
 

nitasmile

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Re: Church Worthiness Interviews
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2018, 09:44:45 pm »
Yikes!!! I have heard of animals and I know people do some terrible things and I'm glad to not know too much about them but insects is a new thing for sure, yikes.. I cannot even imagine. Bad beats my patient who recently made a meal and took a bite of the food and then she gave a bite saw her dogs using the same spoon and then she took another bite of the food for herself with the same spoon. 🕷🕸🐜🐜🐜😊😁😁
 

Curelom

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Re: Church Worthiness Interviews
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2018, 10:26:14 pm »
Insects?!? I don't even wanna think about this.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2018, 02:40:01 pm by Curelom »
 

JLM

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Re: Church Worthiness Interviews
« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2018, 09:33:10 am »
So why do think that is?  The wierdness in Utah?  Is there a higher proportion of sexual deviancy there?  Is it about the same as everywhere else but people aren't as good at keeping it a secret?  I assume it's mostly the men pressuring their wives. I can understand some experimentation to keep things interesting between spouses that are committed to each other, but it should never be degrading or harmful.  Maybe it's the rarefied air, at least that is what is being blamed the above average suicide rate.
 
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Roper

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Re: Church Worthiness Interviews
« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2018, 11:24:23 am »
I don't know, JLM. Utah is fifth highest in the nation for suicide, seventh highest in the nation for drug overdose, way above average for prescription drug abuse, above average for child abuse, and according to anecdotal evidence, above average for extreme sexual deviancy. My own opinion is that the Mormon culture here creates an environment of shame and secrecy--we don't openly discuss those things because they're bound up with "worthiness" issues--and so problems remain largely hidden and unaddressed until they explode.

It's getting better on some fronts.  I recently had kidney stone surgery.  Before the surgery, I was required to attend training about prescription drug abuse and alternatives to opioid pain medication.  In my post-op visits, there was a lot of attention focused on pain management without opioids. Next month, I have enhanced teacher training about how to identify and report child abuse.  My wife has regular professional development about helping clients to overcome pornography addiction, and about helping clients to overcome self-injury. Those are the two biggest concerns at LDS Family Services right now.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2018, 11:29:45 am by Roper »
 
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Curelom

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Re: Church Worthiness Interviews
« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2018, 02:39:11 pm »
Roper, I'm editing the post where I asked a question & got way TMI.  :o  I never woulda thought of that, but then my mind doesn't work that way. You're welcome to delete or edit your reply.

Now I need to get up to the Cabin & check on the critters, to be sure they're safe.  ::)
« Last Edit: July 06, 2018, 02:41:52 pm by Curelom »
 
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Roper

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Re: Church Worthiness Interviews
« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2018, 09:38:24 pm »
Curelom, I deleted the two posts which had a lot of detail. The discussion still makes sense in a general way without the specifics.
 
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Jason

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Re: Church Worthiness Interviews
« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2018, 02:24:03 am »
Quote
Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Those that struggle with an addiction of pornography, might be given that addiction so that they can remain humble and closer to God. Addictions quickly become hardwired into our brains, and are nearly impossible to remove. So imagine someone who acquires that addiction, but who then weekly or daily prays to God for help and relief. That person might stay closer to God in all of their other parts of life. That person might seek out the atonement daily and be constantly in a state of grace. That person may understand the atonement better for that experience. If God really wanted to remove that addiction, would he not have done it after years or decades of praying for that relief? Would not some of those thousands of prayers have been sincere enough? Does ignorant experimentation when a youth that causes the hardwiring condemn someone for eternity, even when they really want that burden to be lifted?

Heroin can cause addiction after just one use. Many consider pornography a far harder addiction to break. And breaking the addiction most likely means abstaining, but never having their brains rewired. If 70-80% of men (including LDS men) look at pornography at least once a month, then are the broken homes caused or just correlated to pornography use? It would seem that the vast majority of those that look at it do not let it appreciably affect their family relationships.
 
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cook

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Re: Church Worthiness Interviews
« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2018, 02:47:25 am »
I'd have to say it does affect anyway. It doesn't make it miserable, but it affects, the same way me having a bad day and thus saying things a bit more harshly to may family than needed or me reading books all day and not doing the things that would need doing.

I understand the point and I believe that if someone has an addiction and sincerely repents, it is not a reason to stay away from the temple for a long time, just until they have prayed about it, asked for forgiveness and felt God approves the sincerity. Just like with every other thing we do wrong. The recommend is for two years. It leaves a lot of time for us to decide for ourselves are we worthy to enter at the time. We'll know and the Lord will know.

But if one has the addiction and only looks at porn once a month but doesn't even feel quilty about that but declares that it is just so little that it is ok, that it is under control etc, then that would be lying to God and such a person would do no good to himself or herself by entering the temple.

No one but the person and God can make those decisions. But at the time of the temple recommend interview, the bishop also can. And if the person brings up the addiction and the struggles trying to overcome it, I'm certain most bishops will know what is better for the person, to give the recommend or not to at the time.

But I imagine for most pornography users it is not addiction, it is a choice, just like with alcohol and other substances. And addictions can be overcome, even though it is hard.
 
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Roper

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Re: Church Worthiness Interviews
« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2018, 10:42:59 am »
It would seem that the vast majority of those that look at it do not let it appreciably affect their family relationships.

That's the exact same lie alcoholics use.  If you asked the spouse, or the children, I think you would get a much different perspective. Pornography is not victimless.  It is not a harmless diversion. It destroys lives, user and loved ones alike, as assuredly as chemical addictions.

 
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Curelom

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Re: Church Worthiness Interviews
« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2018, 06:15:56 pm »
But I imagine for most pornography users it is not addiction, it is a choice, just like with alcohol and other substances. And addictions can be overcome, even though it is hard.

Addiction may not be a choice that the person wanted or sought, but almost all addictions begin with a choice. Just one choice. I have no doubt that every man or woman, boy or girl who says, “I’ll just try this once – one time won’t hurt me – I can handle it” never intends to get hooked. No one who tries that thing “just this one time” stops to think that some practices or activities or substances are more addictive than others, & some individuals have personalities, physiological or psychological situations, life circumstances or living environments that put them more at risk for addiction than others.

No one thinks they will become an addict with their first cigarette (or fruit or mint cigarillos that are being marketed to youth “In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days,” [D&C 89]), or their first joint, swig of malt liquor, porn video, or pull on a slot machine. Most addictive substances or behaviors are made to seem exciting, cool, enjoyable, attractive – or if none of the above, they are made to look like antidotes to depression, loneliness, a boring life, or various failures. Sure, advertisers say “Please drink responsibly” or “Play the lottery responsibly,” but how loud do they say it & how clear do they try to make it how risky those things can be to some people?

This is why the Word of Wisdom, Law of Chastity, & other commandments that address what we do with our bodies (& those of other people) are such a blessing. So are Church leaders’ warnings against porn, gambling, entertainment with excessive sex or violence, or hanging out in places where unwholesome activities are offered. The well-known adage “Know thyself” is good, but how do I know every medical, psychological, or hereditary factor hidden in the DNA that I got from all my ancestors? If I make up my mind to follow these laws "with exactness and honor", not being pharisaical about it, but doing my best to keep both the letter & spirit of the law, they protect me both physically & spiritually. If I decide that chastity means more than just “thou shalt not do IT,” but includes respecting the bodies & the procreative ability that God gave me & everyone else, that saves me from a lot of woes that aren't necessarily connected only to “doing IT.” If I decide to follow the Word of Wisdom, it makes no difference whether I have a hereditary or physiological predisposition to alcoholism, whether I'm aware of it or not: no alcohol going into me means I am not at risk of becoming alcoholic.

And knowing how hard overcoming addictions can be - with varying degrees of difficulty for everyone - it's best that I do try to bring both exactness & honor to keeping the commandments that I know my wise & loving Father gave to keep me safe.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 08:10:55 pm by Curelom »
 
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Panama Jones

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Re: Church Worthiness Interviews
« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2018, 08:20:46 pm »
I am a recovering addict. It took me until I was 44 to understand what it meant to be an addict. Before then I thought I just had a "little problem" that with enough faith and effort I could overcome. After decades following that approach I finally realized it was no little problem, it was infinitely stronger than I was, and the only way to deal with it was to turn my life upside down. Praying, fasting, attending the temple, counseling with bishops didn't help because I fundamentally misunderstood the nature of the atonement and my relationship with the Savior. I was trying to do it on my terms. When I let go of any conditions, only then did I get out of the Lord's way and let him in. I have learned to rely on my Savior in a way I didn't comprehend before. For almost 5 years I have been attending weekly 12-step meetings, doing daily step work, having daily phone calls with other recovering addicts, working with a sponsor and sponsoring others in turn. And I expect to do this for the rest of my life. Before I thought this was too high a price to pay, but it is a very small price for the peace and freedom the Lord gives me each day.

Addiction is both physiological and behavioral. It is progressively destructive, sometimes slowly and sometimes rapidly. And it affects everyone around the addict, whether they are aware of it or not. In reality this “little problem” breaks hearts, destroys trust, ruins relationships and corrodes faith.

Whether or not it's an addiction, whatever sin we persist in will keep us from God's presence now and forever. And encouraging people who persist in sin to use their temple recommends only cheapens the temple and its covenants.
 
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Jason

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Re: Church Worthiness Interviews
« Reply #42 on: August 05, 2018, 06:05:14 pm »
It would seem that the vast majority of those that look at it do not let it appreciably affect their family relationships.

That's the exact same lie alcoholics use.  If you asked the spouse, or the children, I think you would get a much different perspective. Pornography is not victimless.  It is not a harmless diversion. It destroys lives, user and loved ones alike, as assuredly as chemical addictions.
Quote
If 70-80% of men (including LDS men) look at pornography at least once a month, then are the broken homes caused or just correlated to pornography use? It would seem that the vast majority of those that look at it do not let it appreciably affect their family relationships.
The sentence you quoted was an examination of a sentence prior to it, which had a statistic, so I included it again. I do not think that a vast majority of the 70%-80% of Mormon men who look at pornography have broken homes. If you think that this examination of that statistic is a lie, then please support it.

But if you are shifting definitions, please change them clearly. Not all who drink alcohol are alcoholics. In the same vein, most who have looked at pornography do not have broken homes. Implicit in the analysis of that statistic is that some of do look at pornography do have broken homes, and a major cause can be attributed to the pursuit of pornography. But not all of them, or even a majority of them,  have broken homes.

If 70%-80% of Mormon men have or do look at pornography, and a good chunk are living their lives as I described above,
Quote
someone...who then weekly or daily prays to God for help and relief...[who seeks] out the atonement daily and [are] constantly in a state of grace.
then perhaps they will seek God in all aspects of their lives. Perhaps God will someday remove that burden from them and rewire their brains. Perhaps that will only come after the resurrection. I do not know.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2018, 06:06:53 pm by Jason »
 

Jason

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Re: Church Worthiness Interviews
« Reply #43 on: August 05, 2018, 06:17:37 pm »
But I imagine for most pornography users it is not addiction, it is a choice, just like with alcohol and other substances. And addictions can be overcome, even though it is hard.

Addiction may not be a choice that the person wanted or sought, but almost all addictions begin with a choice. Just one choice. I have no doubt that every man or woman, boy or girl who says, “I’ll just try this once – one time won’t hurt me – I can handle it” never intends to get hooked. No one who tries that thing “just this one time” stops to think that some practices or activities or substances are more addictive than others, & some individuals have personalities, physiological or psychological situations, life circumstances or living environments that put them more at risk for addiction than others.

No one thinks they will become an addict with their first cigarette (or fruit or mint cigarillos that are being marketed to youth “In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days,” [D&C 89]), or their first joint, swig of malt liquor, porn video, or pull on a slot machine. Most addictive substances or behaviors are made to seem exciting, cool, enjoyable, attractive – or if none of the above, they are made to look like antidotes to depression, loneliness, a boring life, or various failures. Sure, advertisers say “Please drink responsibly” or “Play the lottery responsibly,” but how loud do they say it & how clear do they try to make it how risky those things can be to some people?

This is why the Word of Wisdom, Law of Chastity, & other commandments that address what we do with our bodies (& those of other people) are such a blessing. So are Church leaders’ warnings against porn, gambling, entertainment with excessive sex or violence, or hanging out in places where unwholesome activities are offered. The well-known adage “Know thyself” is good, but how do I know every medical, psychological, or hereditary factor hidden in the DNA that I got from all my ancestors? If I make up my mind to follow these laws "with exactness and honor", not being pharisaical about it, but doing my best to keep both the letter & spirit of the law, they protect me both physically & spiritually. If I decide that chastity means more than just “thou shalt not do IT,” but includes respecting the bodies & the procreative ability that God gave me & everyone else, that saves me from a lot of woes that aren't necessarily connected only to “doing IT.” If I decide to follow the Word of Wisdom, it makes no difference whether I have a hereditary or physiological predisposition to alcoholism, whether I'm aware of it or not: no alcohol going into me means I am not at risk of becoming alcoholic.

And knowing how hard overcoming addictions can be - with varying degrees of difficulty for everyone - it's best that I do try to bring both exactness & honor to keeping the commandments that I know my wise & loving Father gave to keep me safe.
Many of the addictions to masturbation (which is the impetus for later pornography) began during puberty with exploration of the changing body, well before that person learned of any moral issues regarding it. There was no choice between good and evil at the time, just exploration, which hard-wired the pleasure seeking portions of the brain during a very impressionable period.

For those that may have started a little later after they had been appropriately taught about the moral implications, how long should one suffer morally for that one choice? How many decades of praying for relief from the hard-wiring does it take to right that wrong? It may never happen in this lifetime. But I suspect that decades of praying for God's mercy would grant that mercy, and that person will be in a state of grace, meaning Jesus took their sins upon himself, despite them not reaching perfection in this life.
 

Roper

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Re: Church Worthiness Interviews
« Reply #44 on: August 05, 2018, 09:25:46 pm »
If 70-80% of men (including LDS men) look at pornography at least once a month, then are the broken homes caused or just correlated to pornography use? It would seem that the vast majority of those that look at it do not let it appreciably affect their family relationships.

Jason, it seems to me that in this sentence, you have conflated two ideas:  Broken homes = do not let it appreciably affect.  Sure, not all use of pornography results in broken homes.  However, the assertion that someone can control the consequences of porn use--they don't let it appreciably affect their family relationships--is false.  Anyone who has undertaken addiction recovery, whether it's substance addiction or behavioral addiction (such as gambling, pornography, etc.) will attest that the first step in recovery is an admission of powerlessness.  A person cannot control the consequences of their addiction. "I use porn once a month, but I don't let it affect my relationships" is a lie.

"Pornography in all forms is especially dangerous and addictive. What may begin as an unexpected exposure or a curious exploration can become a destructive habit. Use of pornography is a serious sin and can lead to other sexual transgression. Avoid pornography at all costs. It is a poison that weakens your self-control, destroys your feelings of self-worth, and changes the way you see others. It causes you to lose the guidance of the Spirit and can damage your ability to have a normal relationship with others, especially your future spouse. It limits your ability to feel true love. If you encounter pornography, turn away from it immediately." - For the Strength of Youth.

"If you already indulge in pornography to any degree, you can stop. You have agency to choose your thoughts and actions. This requires an honest admission of the problem and a willingness to be responsible for your actions and the pain those actions have caused others. The adversary may have misled you in the past, but you have the final choice. You can regain the strength of the Spirit in your life. To do this, you need most of all to know that your Redeemer loves you. He has the power to help and to heal you. He died to pay for the sins of all who repent and follow Him. You can draw on the power of His Atonement for hope and strength as you repent. Remember the words of the Apostle Paul: “I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." - LDS topics: Pornography

Christ is stronger than "hardwiring."
« Last Edit: August 05, 2018, 09:34:30 pm by Roper »
 
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