Welcome to New Nauvoo


Author Topic: Scenario Input  (Read 328 times)

curlybat

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 124
  • Thanked: 103 times
    • View Profile
Re: Scenario Input
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2018, 11:44:01 am »
If this didn't appear to be just a tally mark on sexual conquest chart we would be going a different route.  This isn't an small indescretion made in a moment that want too far but a planned act.  These guys are predators.
Still TheOne and only me who happens to now be curlybat.

Nauvoodle since September 2001 (#431)
 
The following users thanked this post: LMAshton, Jen, dyany, Roper

Roper

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 925
  • Thanked: 1004 times
  • Country: us
  • Earning my spurs.
    • View Profile
Re: Scenario Input
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2018, 12:58:30 pm »
Bishops are ecclesiastical leaders and as such have privilege, which means they cannot be forced to testify (including give a deposition). 
Maybe not testify, but they are required by law to report child abuse. There was a case a couple of years ago where a Mormon bishop went to trial and was convicted because he failed to report sexual abuse of a minor.
 
The following users thanked this post: LMAshton

Roper

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 925
  • Thanked: 1004 times
  • Country: us
  • Earning my spurs.
    • View Profile
Re: Scenario Input
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2018, 01:11:53 pm »

And people keep assuming that the girl was a pure victim here, when Curlybat said nothing of the sort.  He said it happened, with no information on whether it was considered consensual by the girl or not.  While this is TECHNICALLY still a crime, I feel it is not only unfair to the boys to extrapolate from that that she could be nothing but a victim, but it dismisses HER and may brush the real issues (which it is entirely possible center around HER) under the rug and delay or avoid getting her help that she needs.

And thank you, pnr, for being an experienced voice in the matter.

PNR is not the only voice of experience.  I have been protecting children from sexual predators for 11 years.  I can't over-state this point:  The girl is 13 years old.  She CANNOT give consent.  She is 100% the victim.  IT IS NOT HER FAULT!!! Two teenage boys are sexually preying on her.  Curtis absolutely did the right thing to protect his daughter.  The idea that she is somehow culpable is not only wrong, it makes me sick.

Yes, she'll get the help she needs. Because Curtis is that kind of father.  But that healing will begin when she, and everyone who loves her, understands that this was in no way, shape, or form her fault. Not even a little bit.  Not even .000000000000000000000001%.

As for those teenage boys who "made a mistake" and things might turn out "unfair" for them:  That's for the justice system to decide.  Not us.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 01:14:04 pm by Roper »
 
The following users thanked this post: LMAshton

dyany

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 758
  • Thanked: 584 times
  • Country: us
    • View Profile
    • My blog
Re: Scenario Input
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2018, 04:37:36 pm »
13 years old she cannot LEGALLY give consent.  But she is capable of making choices, consciously.  That is why we have the age of accountability in our church as 8, not 18. 

What I don't think people realize is that labeling a 13 year old girl as not responsible for her own choices is as objectifying and damaging as seeing her as a possession (which this sort of is, she is becoming a possession to be protected) or a sex object.  Is she FULLY capable of responsible, well-reasoned choices?  No.  But I know TONS of adults, most of whom are their own guardians (and thus legally responsible for themselves), who are also not fully capable of responsible, well-reasoned choices.
With power comes responsibility.  But the flip side is also true: with responsibility comes power.  Only when we are held responsible (at a reasonable level) for our own choices and actions, do we start to gain the strength and power necessary to grow and learn and be responsible adults. 
 
The following users thanked this post: LMAshton, cook, Sparky

pnr

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 286
  • Thanked: 213 times
  • Country: us
    • View Profile
Re: Scenario Input
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2018, 07:17:10 pm »
I tend to be with roper on this issue.  While it is true that the girl might have done things wrong, she is absolutely, fully, not responsible for the boy's behavior or the rape.  And it is rape, because she cannot consent by virtue of age, and by virtue of emotional health.  And it wouldn't matter if she though she was in love with them and asked them to have sex, either.

What I meant is that when I was raped, I still felt I was responsible because I got drunk ---- not for the rape, but for putting myself in a vulnerable place.   I got annoyed when people said I was not to blame, because I knew that while I was not responsible for what the guy did, it wouldn' t have happened but for my action.   But I was an adult, not a 13 year old.   You never have to repent of being raped.  Ever.
Nauvoo 1270, Feb 2005
 
The following users thanked this post: LMAshton, Sparky

Roper

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 925
  • Thanked: 1004 times
  • Country: us
  • Earning my spurs.
    • View Profile
Re: Scenario Input
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2018, 09:14:43 pm »
13 years old she cannot LEGALLY give consent.  But she is capable of making choices, consciously.  That is why we have the age of accountability in our church as 8, not 18. 

What I don't think people realize is that labeling a 13 year old girl as not responsible for her own choices is as objectifying and damaging as seeing her as a possession (which this sort of is, she is becoming a possession to be protected) or a sex object. 
And to place any kind of responsibility on her exonerates those boys from preying on her.

So how exactly is she accountable for being sexually victimized? Is she morally accountable? Is she spiritually accountable? Is she socially or emotionally accountable?

Dyany, I just can't agree with your position on this.  There is no way on God's green earth that I could ever even think of placing accountability or responsibility or whatever you want to call it on this child.  No matter what she did or didn't do, no matter what she said or didn't say, she was not responsible for being raped. 
 
The following users thanked this post: LMAshton, palmetto_gal, ketchupqueen, Hobbes

dyany

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 758
  • Thanked: 584 times
  • Country: us
    • View Profile
    • My blog
Re: Scenario Input
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2018, 12:57:16 am »
I never said the boys have no culpability.  But to say that she has ZERO responsibility is also wrong.  There has been NOTHING in the information given to indicate in the least that the sex was not consensual, quite the opposite.  There may have been coercion, or the boys may have seen in her as an easy way to add to their tally sheet.  Yes, they may have more than even 50% culpability.  But the fact is, from what curlybat has said, she CHOSE to do this.  Unless there are key details kept from us (which wouldn't make sense, since curlybat has more reason to defend her than not), it was not rape except for the legal age of consent. 

It's is not an either/or.  Girls are not always just victims.  And curlybat's statement of "she nor apparently the boys understand the severity if what they have done" also indicates to me the decision was MUTUAL.  And the fact that she slept with TWO boys, not just one, also indicates a pattern on HER part. 

I believe that she is not completely psychologically (or morally) culpable because of the damage in her youth, and if there was undue coercion from the boys, that's not good either.  But to take away ALL her responsibility is to minimize or even dismiss her power and control in her own life and to damage her severely. 
I was offered beer when I was six.  I was invited to watch porn when I was 16.  In both cases, there was a lot of duress to comply.  In both cases, I refused.  Was the pressure for me to do those things wrong?  Yes.  But I STILL HAD CHOICES and because I had learned that I am responsible for my own choices, I had the strength to say no.  If culpability for mistakes had been taken away from me, I would not have learned that, and I would have had more internal damage and would have hated myself more than I already did.  Learning that I have the power and responsibility for my own choices has been absolutely key to my survival.
 
The following users thanked this post: Sparky

ketchupqueen

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 82
  • Thanked: 102 times
    • View Profile
Re: Scenario Input
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2018, 02:53:15 am »
Curlybat, good job. I'm so glad you've reached a decision that feels right and I think it's a good one.
 
The following users thanked this post: dyany

Sparky

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 44
  • Thanked: 23 times
    • View Profile
Re: Scenario Input
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2018, 10:08:07 am »
I've given thanks to a lot of the posts on this issue. I feel like I'm on both sides as far as the girl's responsibility goes. Being a young girl, she she was raped by two older predatory boys. She was not culpable for the rape. The boys could have stopped at any time but chose to perpetrate this crime upon her. They are athletic and older and therefore are most likely much stronger and probably bigger than she is and when the moment came, even if she had wished it to stop, she probably could not have prevented them from raping her.  Also, with her background of neglect and abuse and low self-image, it was rape because she was emotionally unable to prevent the boys from preying on her weaknesses and needs.

At the same time, having been raised in the church for half of her life and having been taught about good and bad choices, I think that when she recognizes that she made some bad choices to be with these boys, even if she felt like they loved her or she loved them, that she will realize her culpability in allowing herself to be alone with them. As Dyany said, she could have made some better choices.

She is the victim of the rape, pure and simple. She is not culpable for the rape. The boys are. She is culpable for a few bad choices and having counseling/therapy and perhaps even the repentance process, not for the rape but for a few specific choices she made, could help to strengthen her to better recognize bad situations and to make better choices in the future.

I'm so sorry that this has occurred for this child and for Curlybat's family. I pray that things will work out to strengthen the girl to help her become the delightful daughter she can be.
 

Jana at Jade House

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 315
  • Thanked: 262 times
    • View Profile
Re: Scenario Input
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2018, 10:45:31 am »
Again, because I love the Curlybat family and every soul therein, this conversation leaves me bereft. What horrendous and heartbreaking things we talk about in this conversation.  I remember being a beautiful 13 year old damaged in crazy ways by my parents.  It is not hard for me to understand exactly what happened.  I just cannot assign much blame to that little girl.  That those boys took advantage of her yearning heart breaks mine.
Get her counseling, give her love, teach her better choices equal healing and better self image.  I sure wish I had parents like she has when I was 13.
 
The following users thanked this post: palmetto_gal

dyany

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 758
  • Thanked: 584 times
  • Country: us
    • View Profile
    • My blog
Re: Scenario Input
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2018, 11:15:26 am »
I feel like I'm missing something.  So, sincerely, I'm asking, especially pnr, Roper, and Sparky, a very specific question.

It seems to me that the 3 of you believe that she was raped, not just because of the technical age of consent, but that she had sex forced upon her by two large, athletic boys, possibly at the same time.  And I keep reading and re-reading curlybat's posts, every one of them, trying to find ANY evidence for this.  He, more than anyone else, has a reason to use strong language against the boys in describing what happened.  But I can see NO verbiage to indicate force, coercion, or anything but consensual intercourse.  NONE.  He does say that he believes they are predators with a 'sexual conquest chart' -- which, while indicating stupid teenage boys lauded by every 80s-90s teen movie ever, still does not imply more to me than boys who sought a target they felt would be easier to get to say 'yes.'  16-17 years old still doesn't have the prefrontal cortex development to make smart and ethical decisions, so just like I don't hold the girl fully accountable, I don't mark the boys as fully culpable villains, either.  But I really feel like I'm missing something, since your views seems to indicate you feel a full rape, possibly violent, occurred.  I'm really confused. 
 

Iggy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 279
  • Thanked: 81 times
  • Country: us
    • View Profile
Re: Scenario Input
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2018, 12:05:01 pm »
Here is just one of many definitions of statutory rape - which is what all here are simply stating as rape:  n. sexual intercourse with a female below the legal age of consent, but above the age of a child, even if the female gave her consent, did not resist and/or mutually participated. In all but three states the age of consent is 18, and the age above which the female is no longer a child varies although 14 is common. The theory of statutory rape is that the girl is incapable of giving consent, although marriage with a parent's consent is possible in many states at ages as low as 14. Intercourse with a female child (below 14 or whatever the state law provides) is rape, which is a felony. Increasingly statutory rape is not charged when there is clear consent by the female, particularly when the girl will not cooperate in a prosecution. Controversy continues over what constitutes "resistance" or "consent," particularly when some men insist a woman who said "no" really meant "yes." from https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/statutory+rape

So yes Dyany - she was raped. The young men involved should be charged with Statutory Rape and prosecuted. Within the church, when one sins and wishes to repent of said sin, they must own up to that sin, stop doing that sin and make amends to the one who was sinned against. Well in the case of rape/ statutory rape there is NEVER any amends. How in creation can a man give back the woman's or in this case child's virtue [virginity]?? Those young men took that from her, and there is no correcting it. Amending it. Making it Not So.

When she is older and comes into the knowledge of what repentance truly is - if she hasn't had counseling regarding this, she is going to go through her own hell. I know, been there, went through it, thank God & Jesus Christ for the wonderful Branch Family that I have who were there to help me come to grips with what had happened to me in my past that had reared its Ugly, Filthy, Putrid Head to try to bring me down into it's depraved hole where Satan rules.

I wasn't 13 - I had been a baptized member of the church since I was 14 - but been actively coming since I was 8- was raped when I was 17.5 yrs old. Was TOO ashamed, TOO guilty, TOO afraid to tell ANYONE about it.  My background was way different than this child's - but the outcome is still the same. Statutory Rape is still RAPE.
 

Roper

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 925
  • Thanked: 1004 times
  • Country: us
  • Earning my spurs.
    • View Profile
Re: Scenario Input
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2018, 02:22:16 pm »
Dyany, my past attempts to answer your question in my own words don't seem to suffice.  So I will direct you to church resources:

"Victims of abuse should be assured that they are not to blame for the harmful behavior of others. They do not need to feel guilt. If they have been a victim of rape or other sexual abuse, whether they have been abused by an acquaintance, a stranger, or even a family member, victims of sexual abuse are not guilty of sexual sin." - https://www.lds.org/topics/abuse?lang=eng

"Our First Priority: Help the Victim, Stop Abuse
Child abuse is a matter the Church takes very, very seriously. When we learn of abuse, our first priority is to help the victim and stop the abuse."

and

"Victims Are Innocent
The Church’s constant efforts to prevent and stop child abuse reflect the Savior’s teachings to “help the one” (see Luke 15:4). A victim of child abuse is a real, living, child of a loving Heavenly Father. Every victim is a little boy or little girl who is suffering deeply. We must do everything we can to protect and love them. We urge our local leaders and members to reach out to victims, comfort and strengthen them, and help them understand that what happened was wrong, the experience was not their fault, and that it should never happen ever again."

and

"Zero-Tolerance Policy
When child abuse occurs, we deal with it immediately and directly. The Church has a zero-tolerance policy when it comes to abuse. This means that if we learn of abuse, we take immediate steps to protect the victim and help them with healing. We cooperate with law enforcement to report and investigate abuse." https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/how-mormons-approach-abuse

Two teenage boys had sex with a 13 year old girl.  She can't give consent. That makes her innocent. If you have intercourse, and you can't/don't give consent, it means it is forced upon you through an abusive use of power and coercion.  In gospel terms, it's unrighteous dominion.  In legal terms, it's a crime.  Sex with a thirteen year old is against the laws of the land and against the laws of God.  Dyany, it couldn't be more clear that she is innocent. 

And please don't bring up the baptism/age of accountability thing again.  It makes me want to vomit to think that an eight-year-and-one-day-old child could be held partially accountable for being sexually victimized just because he/she had been baptized and didn't scream out "No!  Stop!" when it was happening. 

I have nothing more to add.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 02:36:32 pm by Roper »
 

cook

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 274
  • Thanked: 189 times
  • Country: fi
    • View Profile
Re: Scenario Input
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2018, 03:00:13 pm »
I understand Dyany's perspective. I live in a country where a 13 old having sex with a 16 year old is not considered any kind of crime.

This train of thought and the use of the word of rape the way your law it defines, is so very foreign that I have had to reread a lot of these post to understand what many if you feel and why.

I have to say I am glad I do not live there, in case any of my children would choose to have sex underage regardless of what they have been taught. I have been always well mannered, well taught, loving the gospel, very modest, no need for therapy, good self-esteem and deemed as mature in thinking and yet having sex by my choice at 13, because I was a teenager, could have been a possibility. So I believe it could be a possibility for my children as well. So I am glad I live here and not there.
 
The following users thanked this post: dyany

dyany

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 758
  • Thanked: 584 times
  • Country: us
    • View Profile
    • My blog
Re: Scenario Input
« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2018, 03:18:46 pm »
I know what the law is.  I KNOW this is statutory rape, I've known it the entire time.  The LEGAL definition, as I've stated MANY times, is not what I'm trying to figure out or 'need to be educated in.' 

I've seen a lot of stupid kids in my day, girls as well as boys.  I refuse to believe that boys are the villains when they are stupid, and girls are the victims.  These are ALL teens involved.  The boys are only 3-4 years older than she was, and though that allows for greater cognitive and moral development, it is not remotely enough to make the good/evil decision clear cut.  Laws, especially ones that define ages, are often arbitrary or traditional.  I do not adhere to them like an iron vise when it comes to ethical and psychological culpability, though I will support the law as needed. 

We don't have ANY evidence that this was not consensual, and as such, since this was NOT fully culpable adults, I cannot see cause to claim or assume (aside from letter of the law) that this was more than a teenage mistake.  There is no evidence for it here.  None.  Abuse is terrible, but abuse is different than what I see from the evidence that has been presented.  Misuse?  Probably.  Abuse, no.  I am more than willing to amend my evaluation of the situation if more evidence came forth supporting attack or grooming or even duress.  But there has been none. 

I know for a fact that 13 year olds are capable of making decisions.  It is not an all or nothing thing where suddenly at 18 (or at 8, for that matter), we blink from not at all responsible to fully responsible.  It is a continuum, and as such, she is capable of making decisions that can be huge mistakes and have terrible consequences, but they are still HER decisions.  We protect and guide and teach and love kids at this age to help them as their brain and spirit develop to better be able to understand and avoid such pitfalls.  And we protect them somewhat from consequences of mistakes, as we can, because the size of the mistakes they are capable of making are far bigger than their developmental stage is fully capable of avoiding.  But we increasingly hold them accountable for their choices.  Because that is how we learn.  And I believe that is why God set the age of accountability at 8, not 16 or 18 or 21.  Not as a switch between 'no accountability' and 'full accountability.'  But as the start of a journey of increasing accountability, to help us learn, in a more protected environment, the consequences of our actions and our responsibility for them.

If there was evidence that her choice was taken away, at all, I would be all over full prosecution like white on rice.  And I'm not just talking physical force, but including verbal abuse/bullying or psychological duress, and if the boys were older (like, 20s or more), I would distrust their motivations, believe them more capable of manipulation and grooming, and hold them FAR more responsible.  But I don't base whether or not she had a choice on an arbitrary legal age limit when it comes to boys only a couple of years older than she is without more evidence against the boys.
 

 

* Top Posters

Curelom
1117 Posts
Roper Roper
925 Posts
dyany dyany
758 Posts
LMAshton LMAshton
609 Posts
CrowGirl CrowGirl
402 Posts

* Recent Posts

What Kind Of Pets Do You Have? by lil_potoo
[January 17, 2018, 07:42:57 pm]


Re: New First Presidency by lil_potoo
[January 17, 2018, 07:27:37 pm]


Re: New First Presidency by ketchupqueen
[January 17, 2018, 06:38:29 pm]


Re: New Curriculum for Third Hour by cook
[January 17, 2018, 03:08:05 pm]


New Curriculum for Third Hour by Redd
[January 17, 2018, 12:44:58 pm]

* Board Statistics

  • stats Total Members: 104
  • stats Total Posts: 8891
  • stats Total Topics: 590
  • stats Total Categories: 6
  • stats Total Boards: 26
  • stats Most Online: 65

  • averages Average Posts: 12
  • averages Average Topics: 1
  • averages Average Members: 0
  • averages Average Online: 17

* Forum Staff

AndrewR_admin admin AndrewR_admin
Administrator
dyany admin dyany
Administrator
LMAshton admin LMAshton
Administrator

* Calendar

January 2018
Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 [18] 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30 31

No calendar events were found.