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Author Topic: Welcome to the YSA (not what you thought)  (Read 370 times)

Curelom

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Welcome to the YSA (not what you thought)
« on: October 11, 2017, 10:29:39 pm »
Does anyone continue to entertain the quaint, archaic notion that males & females are actually different creatures? Do you still refuse to believe that young boys & girls are interchangeable, have exactly the same interests, concerns, & needs that can all be met by exactly the same kinds of activities, experiences, & adult guidance, & any single-sex organization or activity is non-inclusive & discriminatory?

I guess the Youth Scouts of America isn’t for you.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/boy-scouts-will-admit-girls-allow-them-earn-eagle-scout-n809836
 

cook

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Re: Welcome to the YSA (not what you thought)
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2017, 11:07:31 pm »
While I do believe that when we generalize, there are differences, but if we look at individuals, not necessarily. I think it is very good that girls can also do the eagle scout thing. Can't see why in scouts they would not be all allowed to do all the same things.
 

Jen

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Re: Welcome to the YSA (not what you thought)
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2017, 11:20:56 pm »
Boy Scout)s (when done correctly) was one of the last places where boys could learn to be men under the guidance of other men. At its purest I believe it was an inspired program. Certainly it had its problems and I in no way minimize that awful people joined as leaders to victimize boys looking for said guidance. But, as for BSA at its finest, I think this is a sad day.
 
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AndrewR

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Re: Welcome to the YSA (not what you thought)
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2017, 03:35:46 am »
"Does anyone continue to entertain the quaint, archaic notion that males & females are actually different creatures? Do you still refuse to believe that young boys & girls are interchangeable, have exactly the same interests, concerns, & needs that can all be met by exactly the same kinds of activities, experiences, & adult guidance, & any single-sex organization or activity is non-inclusive & discriminatory?"

As the father of six girls and one boy, and the grandfather of three boys and two girls I can say yes to both of these. Do I believe that some boys and girls are happier in the environment of the other gender? Yes, of course. But gender is an eternal quality and I don't believe we fully understand what that means.

But sure, there will be lots of girls who will make great eagle scouts - I say that not fully knowing (as a non-scouting Englishman) what an eagle scout is. I do have two nephews, and another well on the way, who are eagle scouts.
Don't ask me, I only live here.
Nauvoodle since March 2005 #1412
 

ketchupqueen

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Re: Welcome to the YSA (not what you thought)
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2017, 10:10:06 am »
You all do realize that scouting is coed in most of the world and has been many cases since the beginning right?
 
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dyany

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Re: Welcome to the YSA (not what you thought)
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2017, 12:03:42 pm »
Every time I see an announcement like this, I get sooooo excited and hopeful that it will finally be the impetus to help the Church break away from the BSA. 
 
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pnr

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Re: Welcome to the YSA (not what you thought)
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2017, 06:15:08 pm »
Why does additional options for girls have to mean the downfall of its value to boys?   Why can't boys become men when girls are included in their activities?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 03:05:12 pm by pnr »
Nauvoo 1270, Feb 2005
 
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Roper

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Re: Welcome to the YSA (not what you thought)
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2017, 07:38:14 pm »
BSA needs a new source of revenue to replace what they've lost over the past two years.  Go after the girls' money!

Girl Scouts respond:

Quote
The Girl Scouts of the USA has issued a blistering rebuke of the Boy Scouts of America's decision to begin letting girls into the ranks of its troops.

"The Boy Scouts' house is on fire," Girl Scouts told ABC News in a statement today. "Instead of addressing systemic issues of continuing sexual assault, financial mismanagement and deficient programming, BSA's senior management wants to add an accelerant to the house fire by recruiting girls."

"Girl Scouts is the best girl leadership organization in the world, created with and for girls," the organization wrote in the post. "We believe strongly in the importance of the all-girl, girl-led, and girl-friendly environment that Girl Scouts provides, which creates a free space for girls to learn and thrive."

It continued, "The benefit of the single-gender environment has been well-documented by educators, scholars, other girl- and youth-serving organizations, and Girl Scouts and their families. Girl Scouts offers a one-of-a-kind experience for girls with a program tailored specifically to their unique developmental needs."

Sounds like Girl Scouts is the place to be.  I wonder if they'll ever start admitting boys.
 
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Curelom

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Re: Welcome to the YSA (not what you thought)
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2017, 12:42:38 am »
Yes, much of the world does coed scouting; & true, boys might be able to learn to be men when girls are included in their activities. But scouting is not just about activities. And much of the world doing something doesn't necessarily mean it's best for everyone.

There aren’t many places in the world (in America, anyway), that have not been integrated, especially places that were traditionally male-dominated until the challenges by women against bastions of male power. In many cases, “social” or “fraternal” clubs were places where “movers & shakers” in politics, business, or education met, ostensibly to play golf, & decide the direction of a community, which often included maintaining women's second-class citizenship. We all know that’s wrong; no one should be excluded from decision, policy making, etc. that affects all of us.

What’s happened in reality goes far beyond this, so that now, an institution like the BSA finds itself accused of discriminating or not being inclusive. The purpose of Boy Scouts is to help boys become productive, wholesome male adults – just as the purpose of Girl Scouts is to help girls become productive, wholesome female adults. At the age when young people join a scouting organization, it may be best for some or most to do this in a single-sex environment, with leaders & associates of their own sex. Totally aside from the activities (we’re not really talking about rock climbing vs. lanyard weaving), what makes the difference for the young man or woman is being able to learn, grow, test themselves, & succeed in a safe place. Sad to say, a coed setting is not always safe for some individuals of either sex.

If you read the last two paragraphs of the GSA statement Roper cited, & substitute “boy” for “girl” in every instance, it could just apply just as much to the BSA. If a boy or girl (or an “other,” “undecided,” “non-binary,” etc.) or his/her/their/etc. parents believe the single-sex model isn’t right for him/her/them/etc., they need to investigate other organizations, rather than push radical changes in programs that have been proven for many decades to work for millions of young men & women.
 
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ketchupqueen

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Re: Welcome to the YSA (not what you thought)
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2017, 01:16:55 am »
Y'all are also aware they aren't (at least at this time) doing coed units right?

This seems like a mountains from molehills thing to me. And personally I had a bad girl scouts experience and envied my brother's cubs unit.

I think that largely is structural, and from what I've read many women agree. So what's wrong with allowing girls to also benefit from the program that so many want to participate in because they think it's a *better program*, not for any reason related to gender?
 
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dyany

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Re: Welcome to the YSA (not what you thought)
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2017, 01:28:29 am »
Honestly, I don't see anything WRONG with it, per se.  I just feel the BSA has become bloated and financially exploitative, and I despise the fact that it is the primary activity wing of the YM program for that fact--especially because it means the resources and personnel dedicated to the YM and YW programs (as well as cubs vs activity days) are so ridiculously out of balance.  So if the change prompts a split between the Church and the BSA, I'm all for it, even though I don't care much about the change myself.  I can't see that happening, though.  As KQ said, they are not doing coed units right now, so there is no reason the Church has to change anything about how they run stuff.  The only hope I have is that some people might say, "Hey look, now we have no reason not to add scouting for girls, too.  If it's good enough for the YM program, it's good enough for the YW program, and now the BSA covers both!"  Which would be balked at, which in turn will prompt examination. 
 
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ketchupqueen

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Re: Welcome to the YSA (not what you thought)
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2017, 02:55:39 am »
I'm all for more equitable programs and resource allocation within the Church. I think I've ranted about that before.

I've never understood using an outside paramilitary org as a main part of church programming myself, though I think it's a great outside/auxillary activity will be glad to see more kids have access.
 
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Taalcon

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Re: Welcome to the YSA (not what you thought)
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2017, 09:33:34 am »
My daughter (7yo) is enrolled in Girl Scouts. I'm extremely pleased with the lessons, values, and skills it fosters. Plus, because it is NOT run by the Church, she gets to participate and rub shoulders with other girls, not of our Faith, that share the same desire to work together foster those values and skills.

I'm kind of in favor of less rigorous and time-consuming Church-sponsored activities, and more encouraging of participation in community orgs, without Church control.

Hopefully the new in-development youth program can accomplish fostering lds-specific material while complementing (not replacing) other good outside community programs.

While I tend to like the Girl Scout program better, there are many girls who will love and greatly benefit from the tracks in the BSA program. And I hope if members have daughters who want to, especially those who have watched their brothers enjoy the program with parents approval, the option won't be rejected on sheer principle.
 
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Roper

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Re: Welcome to the YSA (not what you thought)
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2017, 06:57:59 pm »
If you're an advocate of girls having the added opportunity to join BSA, then you should also be an advocate of boys having the added opportunity to join Girl Scouts.  Equality is not exclusive.
 
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Taalcon

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Re: Welcome to the YSA (not what you thought)
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2017, 08:28:24 am »
If they had a separate track for boys that instilled the same principles and values, I'd be fine with it.

Thing is, I never actively advocated that the Boy Scouts change and open all-girl tracks.

I'm fine with all-boy or all-girl independent programs existing. But now that they have chosen to make that internal decision to expand their mission, I'm certainly not opposed to it. Especially since I've heard so many talks, training, testimonies, etc of all the good skills learned and taught in Scouts, that to then have a separate track giving those opportunities to girls and to call it horrible ... doesn't make any sense? Especially since it doesn't mandate co-ed units, which seems to be the main objection?

I do think there is value in having boys-only groupings, and girls-only groupings. But I see no problem in a single organization being able to provide both.

So, just I never advocated or called for the BSA to branch open in this way, I also don't actively advocate for the Girl Scouts to branch out and open up a boys-only track, either. I don't think it's necessary.

But do I think if they did, boys would benefit from the program structure and values? Again, Sure I do. Would I consider enrolling my son in it? Sure I would.
 

 

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