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Author Topic: The Family, A Proclamation to the World  (Read 445 times)

cook

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Re: The Family, A Proclamation to the World
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2017, 11:11:01 pm »
Talcoon, I have just one question. Have you presented the issue to your wife the same way? How does she feel about your idea that because of her uterus issue, she has no 'power of creation'? If you haven't and of course I don't know your wife, may I  suggest you do. It may be an eye opening experience. On the other hand, it may be rather marriage wrecking one too.
 

Taalcon

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Re: The Family, A Proclamation to the World
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2017, 11:54:10 pm »
Much of this, actually, was indeed based on things my wife personally expressed to me, and conversations I've had with her. Common repetition (both from her past, and in current ward) of pervasive notion that Motherhood/"Power of Giving Birth" was the Woman's complementary role in the plan of salvation and in the Church in contrast to men having Priesthood office is something that took a massive emotional toll on her and made the decision to have a hysterectomy TO SAVE HER LIFE even more stressful than it should have been. (On the other hand, the moment I learned a surgery could save her life, while initially disappointed at the prospect of having no further biological children, I didn't understand why there could possibly be a debate. I understand the stress even further now. It wasn't just about lost opportunities of having bio children, it was about tensions about her ingrained IDENTITY and ROLE as a Latter-day Saint Woman.)

So, yes, to answer your question, she does indeed affirm and acknowledge that our current sexual activity literally doesn't involve procreative power in the new-life-giving sense, which is what was under discussion. And through various experiences and insights and paradigm shifts,  she's become at peace with it.

I am constantly inspired by, corrected,  humbled,  and learn from listening to my wife's insights and experiences.

Traditional teaching from her youth actually did cause her to question her worth in the role of a relatively young woman in the Church who could no longer give birth. It broke my heart when I learned this is what had been going on.

Again, her perspective has since substantially adjusted from that dark period. She still, however,  visibly bristles anytime anyone attempts to make the Priesthood/Motherhood comparison, though. It's a surefire way to guarantee she suddenly needs a "bathroom break" during a sacrament meeting talk.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 08:55:54 am by Taalcon »
 
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Curelom

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Re: The Family, A Proclamation to the World
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2017, 12:40:50 am »
People of any of the multitude of sexual orientations or gender identities should be free to have relationships as they wish. God gave us all agency, & He would not want us to force any of His children in any way or be harsh or cruel to any of them. But these alternative relationships are not marriages & are not how He intended His children to be brought up.

The power of procreation that the Proclamation speaks of, & the Lord has given extensive revelation about, does not refer only to the bodies we inhabit on Earth. Some people’s bodies may be unable to give spirits a physical dwelling place in this life, but any physical disabilities or inabilities will be ended later when our bodies & spirits are reunited.

The power to procreate extends to the eternal potential for faithful men & women who for various reasons do not or cannot have children in this life to do so in eternity. This life is a time to prepare for the next, just as grade school is a preparation for high school.

Just as it would be wrong to teach 3rd graders that general math doesn’t matter even though they may want to take geometry or trigonometry in high school, it is incorrect to promote the idea that just any kind of relationship between humans on Earth can be defined as marriage & a proper setting for child-raising when God has revealed what that relationship should be both here & in eternity.
 
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ketchupqueen

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Re: The Family, A Proclamation to the World
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2017, 02:51:43 am »
People of any of the multitude of sexual orientations or gender identities should be free to have relationships as they wish. God gave us all agency, & He would not want us to force any of His children in any way or be harsh or cruel to any of them. But these alternative relationships are not marriages & are not how He intended His children to be brought up.

But if one teaches that sex outside of marriage is wrong and forbidden, how does one expect those of a multitude of sexual orientations or gender identities to be free to have relationships as they wish if one and one's society deny them civil marriage?
 

Roper

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Re: The Family, A Proclamation to the World
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2017, 09:23:00 am »
Thanks for your thoughts and the respectful way you have communicated them, Taalcon.

Leaving aside the discussion of how gay marriage fits with the proclamation...

Whenever we have discussed the proclamation in priesthood meeting or occasionally in gospel doctrine class, the discussion has almost always focused on the roles of women and men, mother and father.  I think there is a wealth of truth and inspiration about children in the proclamation.

"Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny." I think that sometimes we get so focused on the day-to-day realities of raising children that we forget that they were His before they became ours, and that He entrusts them into our care for a season.

"Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, and to teach them to love and serve one another, observe the commandments of God, and be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations."  Also, "WE WARN that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. " It sounds to me like our responsibilities to care for children are a lot more serious than we sometimes think.

"Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. " I think this is descriptive rather than prescriptive--not "should" but "this is how we are created."

"WE CALL UPON responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family." Children don't have a voice in politics because they can't vote.  Children don't have a voice in most legal considerations because they haven't reached the age of majority. Children, unlike grownups, can't advocate for themselves regarding laws and legal decisions which directly affect them.  I believe that's why we're called to promote measures which strengthen families.  We grownups need to be the voice for children.
 
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Taalcon

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Re: The Family, A Proclamation to the World
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2017, 09:41:11 am »
I have an adopted son. Some perspective as to how viscerally I am aware of the sadness of the awareness of children having been created by individuals without the ability  or capacity to properly take care of them, and also how incredibly grateful and in awe I am for the institution and doctrines of Adoption. It has fundamentally changed how I understand the potential and dynamics of both the human and eternal family.
 
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cook

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Re: The Family, A Proclamation to the World
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2017, 11:54:44 am »
Talcoon, I am glad your wife feels the same way. And the wsy you described it why, I can see the logic in that chain of thought. The procreative power wording of course is very religious itself, but I have heard people not of religious background (who have no problem of having sex without any marriage) talk about the issue and based on those discussions I made the assumption that your wife might feel differently, that actually you were lowering her to somewhere she might not want to be. I'm glad it doesn't cause hard feelings in your family.
 

AndrewR

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Re: The Family, A Proclamation to the World
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2017, 07:29:01 pm »
Having given this some thought today I think procreative powers encompasses more than sperm, eggs and an incubator. Hormones, sex drive, desire etc. are all part of the process of building eternal families. Just because my wife has not been physically capable of becoming pregnant for nearly 15 years doesn't mean she can't misuse her procreative powers by seeking other sexual partners.
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Roper

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Re: The Family, A Proclamation to the World
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2017, 10:49:47 pm »
I have often wondered why the Lord has set certain bounds for our desires, appetites, and passions.  I believe that all of them are for our personal and collective benefit.  It's just that some are much easier to understand, such as those which affect other people, and those, like gluttony, which affect ourselves.  With some, it's harder to see the justification. But we make the covenant anyway. I suppose that's another aspect of faith. For now, we see through a glass darkly, but there will come a time when we will know.

We're each like a blind man trying to understand an elephant through our own ways of relating to the world. What's cool about Nauvoo is that we have a place to listen to each others' stories, and hopefully be able to "see" another piece.

Taalcon, you've discussed the concept of adoption before.  That previous discussion changed the way I understand our relationship with God, and more specifically, Jesus' parable of the feast and what it means to be called and chosen (D&C 121, as well.)  Thank you for sharing your understanding of adoption.
 

curlybat

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Re: The Family, A Proclamation to the World
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2017, 01:30:55 am »
The Family is meant to be eternal.  Relationships and roles are not just for the here and now.  What we battle now in mortal temptations and imperfections will not survive through the resurrection.  God's guidance in this life through the leaders of His church is meant to get us not only through the here and now but prepared for what is beyond.  I think way too many are concerned about what gives happiness now but not what will carry through to the other side.  This mortal existence is a mere speck in our eternal existence.
Still TheOne and only me who happens to now be curlybat.

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