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Author Topic: Current Events - US Politics Edition  (Read 31358 times)

Taalcon

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #705 on: October 18, 2019, 11:16:58 am »
Roper turns it into a neener-neener-trump-is-a-weinerfest, and doesn't answer the question.

I ... thought Roper's post was substantial, went through it line by line, and added a lot of context. I didn't have anything more to say on the subject, so moved on, as news does.

Context matters. Stating "the right sounding policy", claiming it is yours, filling it with falsehoods, inaccuracies, and then acting completely counter to the ideals you are presenting as 'your platform' does not give confidence. Roper pointed each of these things out with details and references.

And you dismissed it the thoughtful and detailed answer wholesale with a handwave, and say , "Nobody wants to answer?" without addressing any of this points? - that's ... very Trumpian, N3uro.
 
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dyany

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #706 on: October 18, 2019, 11:37:07 am »
Have to agree with Taalcon. I feel Roper did an excellent job at addressing everything in your post.

But if you want a mindless, research-less reaction to your post, then I will say this: to me, Trump's tweets speak unresearched, gormless soundbites designed to manipulate, distract, obfuscate, and deflect. What do I feel on our involvement in the middle east? Well, that's quite a different topic. I feel it's quite complicated, and some commanders-in-chief TRY to do things right (with such a huge, complex issue, mistakes are unavoidable), though there are so many factors on our side, on allies' sides, as well as in the middle east, that I feel that it's wrong to put a completely black or white, right or wrong, good or bad label on the entirety of it. But from the decisions I've seen Trump make, he doesn't approach it with nearly the research and seriousness it needs and deserves, and bad things happen as a result.
 
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N3uroTypical

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #707 on: October 18, 2019, 12:01:29 pm »
Folks, I'm not asking you what you think of Trump.  I already know that.  I'm asking you what you think of the past 2 decades of our warring involvement in the Middle-east.

What I'm seeing in this country, is people hate Orange Man so much, they're altering their long-standing beliefs based solely on what Orange Man tweets.  People on the peacenik/no blood for oil/US is bad because we get into wars/Bush lied people died/militaryIndustrialComplex-is-evil left wingers, whom I've been arguing with for years, now are mad we're ending a war and bringing troops home because Trump is doing it.    And they don't even seem to realize they're acting out that part of Orwell's 1984 where people suddenly realize Eurasia and Oceania have swapped roles as enemy and ally.  It's just a gut reflex - Trump sez A, therefore B is the only good and decent thing, and A is the most evil thing ever. 

I'm just wondering who on this board is doing that jargle. 

So no really, everybody knows you hate trump and you think his tweets are self-serving tripe and stupid and hypocritical and he's bad for the country and you hope to restore sanity to the office of president soon.  What do you think about our reasons for going to war in Iraq?  Do you believe limiting the US role in foreign wars that don't really threaten US interests should be a thing?  Have you, ya know, done a whiplash-inducing 180 in the last 60 days on the matter?  If so, what does that say about your beliefs and on what are they based?
« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 12:03:33 pm by N3uroTypical »
What-about-ism is pointless. I like to think most people's responses to such arguments would be, "Yup. That person, who happened to wear the same political jersey I do/did, was totally wrong on that, too."
-Taalcon
 
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Roper

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #708 on: October 18, 2019, 01:24:53 pm »
Your original question was, "I'd like folks' opinions on the president's statements here." That's what we have answered.

Now you have new questions which I will attempt to answer:

"What do you think about our reasons for going to war in Iraq?"

As I stated, our original reason was to eject Saddam Hussein from Kuwait after he invaded. We went with a coalition of nations. I think it was a deliberate and effective response. Then, we maintained a military presence to protect the world's oil supply from other aggressors moving into the power vacuum. Different presidents have approached it differently; however, our military has played a valuable role in Iraq. For the record: Troop levels in Iraq peaked at 180,000 in late 2007, when Bush was still president. Obama brought home most of the troops, leaving about 5,000 in Iraq when he left office. Trump has maintained that number.

Do you believe limiting the US role in foreign wars that don't really threaten US interests should be a thing?

Our military doctrine and our treaty commitments compel us to respond to threats to our own national interest and to the national interests of our allies. I think that we should not abandon our treaty obligations to other countries, even if our own country isn't directly threatened. In my understanding, maintaining our commitments to other countries is in our own national interest.

Have you, ya know, done a whiplash-inducing 180 in the last 60 days on the matter?

No. My thoughts about America's military have remained consistent since I studied military history and doctrine and was commissioned as an Air Force officer at the Academy of Military Science in 1995. Since separating from the military in 2004, I have continued to study military history and doctrine. I have disagreed with different presidents' uses of the military, but I still believe our core military doctrine is sound.

If so, what does that say about your beliefs and on what are they based?

I haven't done a whiplash-inducing 180, and that says my beliefs are based on a sound foundation, and not based on the political agenda of whomever is in the Oval Office.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 01:39:31 pm by Roper »
All grown-ups were once children...but only few of them remember it. ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "The Little Prince."
 
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N3uroTypical

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #709 on: October 18, 2019, 02:43:53 pm »
Thanks Roper.  Sorry I was rude and dismissive for your first response.

JLM?  Taalcon?  Anyone else?
What-about-ism is pointless. I like to think most people's responses to such arguments would be, "Yup. That person, who happened to wear the same political jersey I do/did, was totally wrong on that, too."
-Taalcon
 
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dyany

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #710 on: October 18, 2019, 03:01:00 pm »
As I said in my previous post,
Quote
I feel it's quite complicated, and some commanders-in-chief TRY to do things right (with such a huge, complex issue, mistakes are unavoidable), though there are so many factors on our side, on allies' sides, as well as in the middle east, that I feel that it's wrong to put a completely black or white, right or wrong, good or bad label on the entirety of it.

And I've felt this way since the beginning. I feel that we have to be very careful about going in (never just for monetary interests), but when we DO go in, we can't be cocky and think that we are just automatically the big dog who will win simply because they are the big dog, because that gets more people killed and makes the conflict messier and longer and nastier.
I feel that defending Kuwait was right.
I feel that going in after 9/11, especially with the intelligence we had about WMDs (even though it proved to be erroneous), was justified.
However, our attempts seem to be getting to be more cocky, politically motivated, and, if you'll excuse the language, half-a$$ed ever since. I don't think completely removing ourselves from the area is the solution, but we need to do the right things for the right reasons and stop being selfish, cocky, noncommittal idiots about it.
 
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Taalcon

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #711 on: October 18, 2019, 03:21:25 pm »
To be honest, I don't have what you would likely consider "long-standing beliefs". It's only in the past decade that I've begun actively wanting to be informed about such things, and forming my own opinions and perspectives on it.

Where I am right now, admittedly without the intimate history or experience behind it, but based on study, thinking things out, and listening to multiple voices, I believe the conclusions Roper presented are very close to the way I have found myself to have settled.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 03:24:18 pm by Taalcon »
 
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JLM

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #712 on: October 19, 2019, 08:47:35 am »
Where the heck did this "Orange man bad" thing come from?  I've never seen it used by anyone as part of an argument against Trump and his policies.  I've only seen it used by NT and alt-right Twitter trolls.  Is it supposed to be some sort of ironic twist on left wing ethnic  diversity ideals? 

As for the middle east, I suppose the most succinct way to put is, "You break it, you buy it."  In hind sight, we shouldn't have gone into Iraq many years ago, but once we did it became our duty to ensure we stay until the people in the region can enjoy the freedom and security all humans deserve.
 
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N3uroTypical

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #713 on: October 19, 2019, 05:27:33 pm »
Quote
Where the heck did this "Orange man bad" thing come from?  I've never seen it used by anyone as part of an argument against Trump and his policies.  I've only seen it used by NT and alt-right Twitter trolls.  Is it supposed to be some sort of ironic twist on left wing ethnic  diversity ideals?
Certainly it's used by right wing Twitter trolls, I don't think you have to be the scare-quote-inducing "alt"right to have used it.  Although for folks who like to demonize people who hold opposing viewpoints, they sure get a lot of mileage out of implying that if you support Trump in any way, you're a neo-nazi alt-right whackjob.

I use it because my young teen daughter also came up with it independent of the twittersphere, and meant the same thing by it.  It describes the gut-reflex unthinking reaction various lefties have to anything Trump does or says.  Like mold in a petri dish reacting to a drop of penicillin, or a vampire to a cross.    She also randomly came up with a modernized version of an old anti-war slogan: "Trump lied, and a child cried."   She's really small and can speak in a cartooney voice when she likes, it was a funny thing.

And I notice you haven't answered my question JLM.  Trump is saying we never should have gone into Iraq.  Were you paying attention back then, and if so, what was your position then, and what is it now?

What-about-ism is pointless. I like to think most people's responses to such arguments would be, "Yup. That person, who happened to wear the same political jersey I do/did, was totally wrong on that, too."
-Taalcon
 
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JLM

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #714 on: October 19, 2019, 10:08:19 pm »
I already stated my position.  In hindsight, we probably shouldn't have invaded Iraq.  At the time I was on board that it was the right thing to do.  Once it became clear that our invasion was unjustified, I felt and continue to feel that we have a moral duty to stay in the region to help promote safety, security and prosperity for the people who live there.  I was extremely disappointed in Obama when he refused to adequately support the Syrian uprising.  Had the US supported the rebels, Assad would likely be out of power and a fledgling democratic government would be in place.  Abandoning the Kurds and leaving the Mideast to fall under Isis and Russian control is the epitome of shortsightedness and cowardice.  If we truly beleive that the U.S. is the leader of the free world, then we need to act like it, and that means taking the lead in doing good where other nations fear to tread, sharing our wealth with those less fortunate and teaching that there is a better way.  It is what God teaches us to do as a zion people.
 
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Roper

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #715 on: October 19, 2019, 11:25:48 pm »
I think we're conflating two ideas, here--bringing troops home and winding down military operations. President Trump has greatly expanded the use of drone technology to carry out military operations. That means we don't have to deploy as many military personnel. It also means we can maintain or increase operations tempo in areas where needed. The positive consequence is that drone ops are cheaper, and we don't put as many personnel at risk. The negative consequence has been articulated by many psychologists--the further the distance from violence and its consequences, the less "real" it becomes to those engaged. Pulling a trigger and watching an enemy soldier drop to the ground 40 yards in front of your eyes has a completely different impact than checking into a secure room at Langley, hitting a satellite linkup, and piloting a drone to drop ordnance on a suspected target in an Afghan village on the other side of the world. Our military operations are becoming a video game. The danger is that we're more likely to use lethal interventions when we're so far removed from the psychological impact.

I'm all for reducing the use of our blood and treasure and for "bringing the troops home." I know how that feels and how it impacts families. It's a political ploy, however, to equate that with a general lessening of military ops tempo. Trump is maintaining or expanding military ops in many places around the world. He's just relying a lot more on drone technology.
All grown-ups were once children...but only few of them remember it. ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "The Little Prince."
 
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Curelom

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #716 on: October 22, 2019, 12:22:53 pm »
More evidence of foot-in-mouth disease. More than historically naïve or ignorant, insensitive, clueless, unfiltered, & tone-deaf. Can you believe he actually said this? Sad to say – yes, I can. Now, hopefully he will not take offense when people turn the art of metaphor-slinging against him & liken him to Mussolini.

https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2019-10-22/trump-impeachment-inquiry-lynching

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-compares-impeachment-process-to-a-lynching/ar-AAJam4o?ocid=spartanntp
 
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Curelom

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #717 on: October 22, 2019, 04:31:45 pm »
https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Diplomat-who-raised-alarm-about-withholding-aid-14553523.php

From the article:
Quote
“Senior U.S. diplomat” [in Ukraine].

“Taylor took the job on temporary assignment earlier this year after the sitting ambassador was removed, in what she told the committees was political retaliation by the Trump administration.”

“Taylor, a retired former ambassador to Ukraine and a foreign policy elder statesman.”

“Taylor is testifying under subpoena after the State Department attempted to block his appearance”?

“Taylor is a former Army officer and Vietnam War veteran who has served in government posts in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere. He is expected to return to his senior position at the U.S. Institute for Peace sometime next year.”

His predecessor, Marie Yovanovitch, is also a career diplomat of 30+ years who had posts in Canada, Russia, Great Britain, & Somalia, & specialized Russia assignments in the State Department. She was a full ambassador to three of the republics that were part of the former USSR.

Mr. Taylor & Ms. Yovanovitch were not born yesterday. They are career professional public servants, foreign policy experts, who we have no reason to believe have a dog in this fight in a political sense. One testified to Congress under subpoena, the other voluntarily, after the State Department tried to keep them both from doing so.

I have nothing further to add.
 
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Roper

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #718 on: October 23, 2019, 08:08:39 pm »
Quote
An attorney for President Trump told a federal appeals court Wednesday that Trump could not be prosecuted even if he shot someone on Fifth Avenue in New York amid a legal fight that seems destined for the Supreme Court.

Trump's personal attorney William Consovoy made the remark during oral arguments in a case involving a Manhattan District Attorney subpoena seeking Trump's tax returns and financial records from his accounting firm. The president's attorneys have argued he has blanket immunity from criminal prosecution and even investigation while in office.
- Full story here https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/467108-trump-attorney-president-could-shoot-someone-on-fifth-avenue-and-not and at other news sites.

Wow. Just...wow. That's bat dookie crazy thinking.
All grown-ups were once children...but only few of them remember it. ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "The Little Prince."
 
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JLM

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #719 on: October 23, 2019, 08:25:34 pm »
Quote
  Wow. Just...wow. That's bat dookie crazy thinking 

Good summary of the Trump administration in general.
 

 

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