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Author Topic: Current Events - US Politics Edition  (Read 28344 times)

pnr

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #615 on: September 10, 2019, 02:36:56 pm »
Iggy, I can see that quoting the Atlantic saying THAT is the equivalent of calling everyone who doesn't see it "wilfully blind", though not specifically anyone.   That kind of discourse sounds like name calling to me, and I hope it is banned from Nauvoo.
Nauvoo 1270, Feb 2005
 
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N3uroTypical

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #616 on: September 10, 2019, 02:54:43 pm »
It's true that my yelling "moooOOOOmmmm" was sort of infantile.  Ordinarily, I'd think Nauvoo would prefer that posters with problems use the report function, and not make it a topic of general membership conversation.

I figured I'd make it public since Nauvoo is in the middle of figuring out what it wants to be with its charter.
What-about-ism is pointless. I like to think most people's responses to such arguments would be, "Yup. That person, who happened to wear the same political jersey I do/did, was totally wrong on that, too."
-Taalcon
 
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JLM

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #617 on: September 10, 2019, 03:54:34 pm »
Oh brother.  If something innocuous as the The Atlantic article is bannable, then all threads except cabin and porch should be permanently shut down. I mean, if discussions are to be censored to such extreme levels, then there really is no point for this forum to exist.
 

dyany

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #618 on: September 10, 2019, 05:16:12 pm »
JLM: the Atlantic article was clearly an opinion piece and does not belong in rational discourse.

NT: yes, your response was infantile.  No, even though we are in the process of finalizing a charter, that does not mean that making your response public was appropriate.

This is this thread's last chance.  One more contentious outburst, one more bit of name calling, one more whiny overreaction, and we're shutting it down, finalized charter or no.  Any attempt to take the childishness to another thread will result in a Time Out (i.e., temporary suspension) of posting benefits for the offender. 

If I hear so much as a "but!" from the people who are pushing right now, it's done.
 
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JLM

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #619 on: September 10, 2019, 05:34:48 pm »
I strongly disagree that data backed statements of opinion are not part of rational discourse, but rather it is an essential part of it.  The path you are suggesting leads to complete irrelevancy of this forum.
 

dyany

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #620 on: September 18, 2019, 09:30:41 pm »
This thread is currently reopened.  Use it wisely. 
 
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Palmon

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #621 on: September 19, 2019, 10:28:07 pm »
Today someone responded to a friend's comment on FB by saying that people have become more empathic. I don't think that's true.

Last week (or about) there was a clip of a presidential candidate (doesn't matter who) being asked if he believed that the questioner's mother had a right to abort him the day before he was born. The candidate replied that it was a matter between the woman and the doctor. At that, the seated audience (women) in view of the camera cheered. I don't think I'll ever get that out of my mind, the vision of a crowd of women loudly cheering for the horrific death of a full-term baby.  It is heart-crushing. How did we, children of God, become so callous that we don't see this for what it is?
 
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Roper

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #622 on: September 19, 2019, 11:21:01 pm »
How did we, children of God, become so callous that we don't see this for what it is?
I think we see, but that we somehow compartmentalize it and treat it as unrelated to moral considerations. I have begun to see the same thing in business dealings here in Utah. When we moved here two years ago, I expected most people to conduct themselves ethically in all things because of their foundation in the gospel. 'Taint so, McGee. I'm struggling with the experience of seeing people working in the temple who engage in illegal and predatory business practices which bilk taxpayers out of millions of dollars. I'm struggling with the knowledge that a stake president hires undocumented workers so he can pay them half of minimum wage, knowing that they won't make a fuss for fear of being deported. They have families to support, too. I think we've pushed the whole "in the world, but not of the world" concept way too far. As disciples of Christ, we conduct ourselves as disciples at all times and in all places, not just in the temple or on Sundays. The hypocrisy of many church leaders in "Happy Valley" is often hard to look past...
 
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Palmon

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #623 on: September 19, 2019, 11:48:23 pm »
What you say is accurate but true everywhere - not just ‘happy valley’. The first time I came across saints not behaving saintly wasn’t in Utah but was just as shocking.  I read somewhere saints are just ordinary people unless they are truly converted and then they are amazing. I’d extend that to saints who don’t belong to our church, too.

And that is probably what it will take to change the world - a true conversion.
 
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JLM

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #624 on: September 20, 2019, 12:22:06 am »
Given all the affinity fraud in the church, I'm more wary of business offers from other members than non-members. But if anything is an excommunicable offence, AF shoud be.
 
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Roper

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #625 on: September 20, 2019, 09:19:10 am »
What you say is accurate but true everywhere - not just ‘happy valley’.
Perhaps I didn't notice it as much when we lived in Texas because we lived in a small branch for most of the time. The brothers and sisters there seemed to conduct themselves in harmony with their professed convictions. Maybe the hypocrisy is more noticeable here because almost everyone is a member.
 

dyany

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #626 on: September 20, 2019, 10:48:12 am »
Roper, I have to agree with you.  I noticed the same thing when I moved from Oklahoma--where I had attended multiple wards--to Idaho. I think part of the reason is that out there, especially in the Bible belt, you get a LOT of opposition (can't tell you how many times through high school and even college where I and other LDS members were told we were going to hell for being Mormon).  We were a minority and had to travel and sacrifice to attend church activities, and interactions with other members outside of church activities were rare. ZERO reasons outside of actual belief and faith to profess the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints faith.  But up here, even the singles only had to travel a few blocks to attend church, they had not only their own WARDS, but an entire STAKE, and huge dances every single week.  There are TONS of reasons OUTSIDE of faith to profess being LDS--tradition, social inclusion, even financial and political clout in some circles. So the weaker members were absolutely not 'weeded out' and in fact learned how to be even more hypocritical to get the social/financial/political benefits of being LDS while not remotely believing.
You don't have that in the 'mission field.'  It doesn't exist because it CAN'T.  The less active numbers in the 'mission field' are undoubtedly higher, but for good reason.  In the jello belt, for those struggling with faith, the external reasons to go may be enough to help them over the hurdles and rekindle the flame.  But for those who already have a testimony but have other needs that only real, faithful members can meet, the hypocrisy and unChristlike behavior can be a terrible storm to weather.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2019, 10:57:35 am by dyany »
 
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Roper

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #627 on: September 21, 2019, 03:24:45 am »
I shouldn't be so negative. The brothers and sisters here in my largely "country" ward are among the most humble, welcoming, and serving saints I have ever known. In the two years we've been here, our lives have been richly blessed by the members here. Wheat and tares, I suppose...
 

pnr

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #628 on: September 21, 2019, 10:42:27 am »
Quote
I'm struggling with the experience of seeing people working in the temple who engage in illegal and predatory business practices which bilk taxpayers out of millions of dollars. I'm struggling with the knowledge that a stake president hires undocumented workers so he can pay them half of minimum wage, knowing that they won't make a fuss for fear of being deported.

I think that members are responsible to do the following things when they see the above:  1) Pray for the person, and those impacted.  Pray to know what to do.  2) Go to the person and express their concern about what is happening and invite them to quit it.  (I wouldn't threaten them.  It would be more like, this appears to violate basic commandments and wrong morally anyway.   It isn't what a Saint does, and every one of your victims is having a harder time believing in Jesus Christ because of the bad example.  Please stop it.")  Tell them they need to pay their workers minimum wages whether they are in a position or not to complain, etc.  Follow that up with a written confirmation of what you discussed.  3)  Go to your bishop or to their bishop and tell them whatever you know first hand (including your own written, even notarized, list of the facts.  4)  Report the activity to the legal authorities and/or help the victims.  (That might including meeting with those who are being paid substandard wages what their rights are and how to keep good records so they can get the state dept of labor to enforce full payment.  And that a prosecutor can prevent witnesses from being deported in situations where their testimony is needed --- maybe you could even meet with local prosecutors  or advocates to learn how that process works so you can share it all with them).   

It is true that even when you feel like you are inspired to do any or all of these things, bishops can refuse or members can attack or any number of other things.   But part of that is because so few members will do anything about it except talk about it behind closed doors.  It is important to confront evil.
Nauvoo 1270, Feb 2005
 
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pnr

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #629 on: September 21, 2019, 10:56:23 am »
NEW question:

In July 2019 "Will Hunter Biden Jeopardize His Father’s Campaign" became a political topic.   See https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/07/08/will-hunter-biden-jeopardize-his-fathers-campaign   Apparently the gist is that Mr. Biden sat on the board of directors of a Ukrainian gas company possibly run by Russians from 2014 when corruption in Ukraine was a big issue.  Details below if you care to read it. 

 My question is whether there would be something wrong with a President asking a new Ukrainian leader who was bent on fixing corruption to take another look at something that had, to that point, not apparently been fully vetted?   Assuming for the purpose of this discussion that the President had something to gain from the investigation, do we quit investigating things that deserve investigation because of that?   Isn't one of the main complaints in US Politics at the moment that there is bias in investigations such that one party always gets a pass at doing the same things they want to kill the other party for doing?


Quote
On April 18, 2014, Burisma Holdings announced Biden's appointment to its board of directors in a press release.[17] Burisma is the largest non-governmental gas producer in Ukraine; it was incorporated in 2006 and is based in Limassol, Cyprus – a European tax haven.[18][19] ... Hunter Biden stepped down from the board when his term expired in April 2019.[26]

Hunter Biden's father, Vice-President Joe Biden, traveled to Kiev on April 22, 2014, and urged the Ukraine government "... to reduce its dependence on Russia for supplies of natural gas."[27] And he discussed how the United States could help provide technical expertise for expanding domestic production of natural gas.[28] A major theme of this diplomatic mission was to reduce corruption by reducing Russian influence.[29] Some critics[who?] accuse the United States of maneuvering the Ukraine situation so that Western oil companies have unfettered access to Ukraine's shale gas reserves. With the revelation that Hunter Biden was serving on the board of the Ukrainian company Burisma, many[who?] raised concerns about Hunter Biden's interests conflicting with official US government positions. The White House dismissed nepotism accusations against Biden's son.[30][31] But the director of the US-Ukraine Business Council, Morgan Williams, pointed to an "American tradition that frowns on close family members of government working for organizations with business links to active politics". Williams stated Biden appeared to have violated this unwritten principle: "... when you're trying to keep the political sector separate from the business sector, and reduce corruption, then it's not just about holding down corruption, it's also the appearance."[32] Despite any specific evidence to indicate malfeasance, the father/son relationship was used by opponents of Biden to undermine his anti-corruption message at the time.[29]

Viktor Shokin was the Ukrainian Prosecutor General at the time of the visit. He had been suspected of ties to Russian and of abusing his position by not prosecuting corruption in Ukraine. Joe Biden threatened to withhold $1 billion of loan guarantees if President Petro Poroshenko did not fire the Prosecutor General Shokin. Biden later bragged about the success of this tactic at a January, 2018, speaking event.[33] In an interview with the Ukrainian website Strana.ua, Shokin said that at the time in 2014 he had an active case to prosecute corruption in Burisma Holdings.[34] However, Vitaliy Kasko, who had been Shokin’s deputy overseeing international cooperation before resigning in February 2016 citing corruption in the office, provided documents to Bloomberg News indicating that under Shokin, the investigation into Burisma had been dormant.[35] Ukraine's parliament voted to remove Shokin from office on March 29, 2016.[36][37][38][39]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_Biden
Nauvoo 1270, Feb 2005
 
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