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Taalcon

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #465 on: July 19, 2019, 01:43:29 pm »
EXACTLY. It becomes a battle of rhetoric than a battle of actual ideas. And that's just not productive in actually contributing to solving problems.
 
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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #466 on: July 19, 2019, 03:50:49 pm »
 I like that term, compassionate capitalism.
 

N3uroTypical

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #467 on: July 22, 2019, 11:27:05 am »
Yay behind the scenes Colorado politics meet national politics!

So, one story you haven't heard, because the local news isn't putting much effort into covering it, is the Denver ICE facility was attacked a few weeks back.  Protesters stormed the facility, vandalized/spray painted some surfaces, took down the American flag and ran up the Mexico flag.  The police chief says they made the conscious choice to stand by and let this happen, because getting involved would have turned a rowdy demonstration into something worse.  Folks on that police force, speaking anonymously, say that's the sort of thing they train for, so the chief's explanation doesn't pass muster.  Whatever.  Denver and surrounding areas are one of the true "sanctuary cities" you hear about.

Part two of the story, (also not covered in the news, including local news) is Mike Pence and Ivanka are visiting Colorado today/this week for various reasons.  VP Pence was going add a tour of the ICE building to is itinerary.  He was bringing a flag that had flown over the white house, to run up the flagpole that had seen the earlier desecration by the Mexico flag.  Folks got wind of it, and the facility was a flurry of activity.  New TVs for the detention areas, graffiti power-blasted off the exercise yard walls, cable locks on all the flagpoles, stuff that had been broken a long time got fixed. 

Part three of the story, is a last minute schedule change has VP Pence skipping the ICE facility, and nobody can find who made the decision to ask them why.

Just another Monday morning drive to work.  I like my AM radio guy - he gives me stuff to think about I wouldn't otherwise be thinking about.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 12:34:51 pm by N3uroTypical »
What-about-ism is pointless. I like to think most people's responses to such arguments would be, "Yup. That person, who happened to wear the same political jersey I do/did, was totally wrong on that, too."
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Roper

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #468 on: July 22, 2019, 01:48:49 pm »
When I was in the military, stuff would be in disrepair for months. Then, when the Adjutant General was coming to the base, there was a flurry of activity to make everything pretty.
 
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Taalcon

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #469 on: July 22, 2019, 02:06:28 pm »
This is Church News, but also I think very relevant for everything else going on in our nation. This is from last night's meeting of the NAACP, where President Nelson was a special guest speaker.

Watch the introduction, and also the talk by President Nelson. It's incredible. It may be my favorite talk President Nelson has ever given.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkq2o8M7ByM
 
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pnr

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #470 on: July 22, 2019, 03:48:58 pm »
I'm super disappointed in Mitt Romney.  He had the opportunity to call a spade a spade and gave a political waffle instead.

FYI

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/09/19/224183763/is-it-racist-to-call-a-spade-a-spade
Quote
In the late 1920s during the Harlem Renaissance, "spade" began to evolve into code for a black person, according to Patricia T. O'Connor and Stewart Kellerman's book Origins of the Specious: Myths and Misconceptions of the English Language. The Oxford English Dictionary says the first appearance of the word spade as a reference to blackness was in Claude McKay's 1928 novel Home to Harlem, which was notable for its depictions of street life in Harlem in the 1920s. "Jake is such a fool spade," wrote McKay. "Don't know how to handle the womens." Fellow Harlem Renaissance writer Wallace Thurman then used the word in his novel The Blacker The Berry: A Novel of Negro Life, a widely read and notable work that explored prejudice within the African-American community. "Wonder where all the spades keep themselves?" one of Thurman's characters asks. It was also in the 1920s that the "spade" in question began to refer to the spade found on playing cards.

The word would change further in the years to come. Eventually, the phrase "black as the ace of spades" also became widely used, further strengthening the association between spades and playing cards.

Wolfgang Mieder notes that in the fourth edition of The American Language, H.L. Mencken's famous book about language in the United States, "spade" is listed as one of the "opprobrious" names for "Negroes" (along with "Zulu," "skunk" and many other words that I can't print here). Robert L. Chapman struck a similar note in his Thesaurus of American Slang (1989). "All these terms will give deep offense if used by nonblacks," warned Chapman, listing "spade" in a group that included words like blackbird, shade, shadow, skillet and smoke.

The British author Colin MacInnes, who was white, frequently used the term in novels like City of Spades (1957) and Absolute Beginners (1959) about the multiracial, multicultural London of the 1950s and '60s. MacInnes has been criticized for his exotification and sexualization of black culture in his books. MacInnes also coined the cringeworthy word "spadelet" to refer to black infants.

As with many other racialized terms, there were efforts to reclaim the word after it had become a slur. Four years after Malcolm X was killed in 1965, poet Ted Joans eulogized him in his poem "My Ace of Spades." The artist David Hammons also explored the negative connotations to the word in his 1973 sculpture "Spade With Chains." Hammons once told an interviewer that he began to incorporate spades into his work because "I was called a spade once, and I didn't know what it meant ... so I took the shape and started painting it." And a character in 2009's Black Dynamite (a spoof of the blaxploitation films of the 1970s) tells a rival that he's "blacker than the ace of spades and more militant than you."

So what does all of this mean for people who want to, well, "call a spade a spade"? I urge caution. Mieder concludes his case study with the argument that "to call a spade a spade" should be retired from modern usage: "Rather than taking the chance of unintentionally offending someone or of being misunderstood, it is best to relinquish the old innocuous proverbial expression all together."

BTW, my take is that Trump was meanspirited, unnecessary, (I could add other words describing bad) but that what he said isn't racist.   I also find it hard to understand those who claim it as being racist.
Nauvoo 1270, Feb 2005
 
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Taalcon

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #471 on: July 22, 2019, 03:58:16 pm »
Quote
I also find it hard to understand those who claim it as being racist.

I find it very easy to understand, being familiar with the accounts of MANY people of color being shouted out to "Go Back Where They Came From", and not hearing that as being a common occurrence with people who tend to look more like me.

--

By the way, stuff like the origins of 'call a spade a spade' is fascinating. I read a book a year or so back with my wife called The Everyday Language of White Racism that documents many such phrases that have become common and which roots come from inherent racist slang or ideas than tend to have been forgotten (by many, but not all) over a couple generations.

It's absolutely caused me to work at removing some necessary inherited phrases and tropes from my vocabulary.

There's a difference between those who use phrases with a racist history ignorantly, and those who have a history of making regular and blatantly racist comments making another well known blatant racist comment.

Those who truly do not want to offend tend to remove the phrase from their vocabulary. Those who DO want to offend declare the person who pointed out the offensive nature is the one with the problem, and tend to double-down on the usage.

I'm reminded of several public figures last year that got caught on camera saying "Martin Luther Coon", and then said, oops, that was just an unfortunate slip-up that doesn't represent what they really think and ever say.

Nah.

That's not something that just comes out, it's something that was BLATANTLY racists, would ONLY be used in a racist context, and was clearly used over, and over, and over, and over, and was part of how they commonly described and called the man. The only slip-up was having it come out in public in front of cameras. It revealed their nature.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 04:05:35 pm by Taalcon »
 
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N3uroTypical

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #472 on: July 22, 2019, 04:18:55 pm »
Quote
Quote
I also find it hard to understand those who claim it as being racist.
I find it very easy to understand, being familiar with the accounts of MANY people of color being shouted out to "Go Back Where They Came From", and not hearing that as being a common occurrence with people who tend to look more like me.

I have two advantages.  A greater-than-short attention span, and a broad spectrum of places I check when thinking about stuff.

- Argument-driven right-wingers are rife, RIFE with harping on Canadians who opine about US politics.  They get quite loud when a Canadian does it from inside the US.  Yes, Taalcon, they often yell "go back where you came from" to white english speaking dudes.

- Multiple people kept track of Hollywood liberal elites who promised to leave the country if Trump was elected.  They tried to keep it an active news item after the election, and all the white liberal english speaking actors and actresses didn't leave.  Yes, Taalcon, they were yelling "leave America now", and plenty of similar things.

- The (white english-speaking) Dixie Chicks lost just about every good-ol-boy republican fan after they bashed America while outside the country.  People called radio stations to complain, threatening to never do business with companies advertising on that station, if they ever hear another Dixie Chick song.  The Chicks sort of informally disbanded then re-imaged themselves as some sort of liberal sexy goth punk band thing.  And yes, Taalcon, you couldn't swing a dead cat without hearing people yelling at the Dixie Chicks to stay in France, leave the country, etc.

- Telling white, english speaking Americans to "love it or leave it" has been present in my various circles for as far back as I can remember.  At least the early 1980's. 

- They tell me people in the Vietnam war era were all about offering to give (white, english-speaking) hippies the boot.  Kick 'em out of America.  Go live somewhere else.

So much white.  So much english-speaking.  So much not having the slightest thing to do with racism.

Taalcon, the only reason it's possible to think about what Trump said in a racist light, is because you never encountered the plethora of non-racial-based bunch of similar yelling that has been going on in this country for at least the last four decades.  (Or you did, but forgot.)
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 04:21:39 pm by N3uroTypical »
What-about-ism is pointless. I like to think most people's responses to such arguments would be, "Yup. That person, who happened to wear the same political jersey I do/did, was totally wrong on that, too."
-Taalcon
 
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Taalcon

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #473 on: July 22, 2019, 04:25:25 pm »
There is a signifcant rhetorical difference between "Go Away" and "Go Back To Where You Came From," and those to whom it is GENERALLY and most often directed towards.

The conflating of the two in your mind actually does you a service in illustrating a key reason (among many others!) as to why I don't believe you, for example, would ever do the former in a racist way!

One phrase suggests "you never belonged here to begin with", and the other is "don't bother me." - I understand why the phrases are viewed as being similar, but the rhetoric is very different. And is very much recognized with those to whom it is directed, and generally those who DO use the phrase, "Go Back From Where You Came From." - And then when it's directed to those with people from different skin and different ethnic backgrounds who were actually born in the United States? Come on.

When someone has a very, very, very long history of saying and doing blatantly racist things, they've kind of lost the plausible deniability of, "Well, this time, let's assume they probably meant the other thing."

And for Trump, who based his campaign on the idea that America Wasn't Great Anymore, and Needed To Be Great Again, and declared, "The American Dream Is Dead"  to suggest anyone criticizing the current state of the nation is by definition not Patriotic just ... I mean... COME ON.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 05:27:30 pm by Taalcon »
 
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Roper

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #474 on: July 22, 2019, 10:29:33 pm »
I suppose if one parsed the phrase word by word it would be possible to come to the conclusion that the statement wasn't racist. However, given the context of the statement, given the statement's historical use against minority populations including white people from Ireland, Germany, Scandinavian countries--whoever happened to be the target at that time, and given Trump's history of racist statements and actions, I can only conclude that it was racist and was intended to be such.
 
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N3uroTypical

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #475 on: July 23, 2019, 11:22:42 am »
given Trump's history of racist statements and actions, I can only conclude that it was racist and was intended to be such.
I hear he kicked Rosa Parks in the butt after snagging his Ellis Island award, and then he ran away before Mohammed Ali could react.  Nasty racist. 


What-about-ism is pointless. I like to think most people's responses to such arguments would be, "Yup. That person, who happened to wear the same political jersey I do/did, was totally wrong on that, too."
-Taalcon
 

Taalcon

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #476 on: July 23, 2019, 12:45:04 pm »
Apart from what many have been using this photo to say, the reality isn't super helpful to any point. (Another fact check on that point)
Quote
Trump was part of the first group of Americans to be given the award, which recognized people hailing from a variety of ethnic backgrounds who made significant contributions to the country, Otto Coca, communications director for the Ellis Island Honors Society, told The Associated Press last year. 

Trump was honored because of his German heritage and his work as a developer.


On the other hand, he WAS found at fault for housing discrimination explicitly against African Americans , so I'm not sure what point this photo opp makes.

But then again, maybe you're right. Getting an award for being a successful German might negate that.

--

You also know better that racism isn't just a caricature of "I want to beat up or kill all not-me people" - it's an attitude of inherent superiority, and inherent irreconcilable differences.

A lot of time violence comes because individuals from the 'other' group are seen being treated just as well (or better!) than you personally, and because you are not from their group, and you KNOW that YOUR group DESERVES more, and THEY deserve less, so it's inherently unfair, and THEY'RE taking what should be YOURS. And it leads to resentment and anger. Mostly, it's just expressed in passive-aggressive language and behavior. But it seeps into all aspects of life.

They can't live in this neighborhood, it lowers the property value for people like me who want to buy!
They shouldn't have this job, they're taking it away from someone like me who is more qualified!
They can't be critical, they should just be grateful we let them be here!
They shouldn't play with my kids, they'll be a bad influence!

Just because you haven't experienced it or recognized it and because you don't DO it doesn't mean that others don't.

Logic often goes, and I've seen this play out countless times, when something is pointed out as being a racist action or idea that someone did, the thought process will go, "Well, wait, I DO say or do that thing. But Racism is Bad. And I'm not bad. So I can't be racist. Therefore if I do or say that thing, it is therefore is impossible for that thing to BE racist, therefore the person pointing out the behavior is a liar, and how dare they besmirch my name! I'm the REAL victim!"

If people keep defining RACISM as an extreme caricature of "SOMEONE WHO HATES BLACKS WITH EVERY FIBER OF THEIR BEING CAN'T STAND TO STAND NEAR ONE OR WOULD KILL OR BEAT UP EVERY NON-WHITE WITHIN 12 INCHES", then of course, it's easy to say, "Of course I'm not a racist, that's offensive!" and go on with your life.

The reality, and the actual lived effects of it are A LOT more nuanced than that.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2019, 01:19:53 pm by Taalcon »
 
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N3uroTypical

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #477 on: July 23, 2019, 01:09:09 pm »
My overall point is that the label "racist" is at best, unhelpful.   
What-about-ism is pointless. I like to think most people's responses to such arguments would be, "Yup. That person, who happened to wear the same political jersey I do/did, was totally wrong on that, too."
-Taalcon
 

Taalcon

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #478 on: July 23, 2019, 01:34:32 pm »
I understand that you don't see how it is of value to you personally. Whether someone is racist or not doesn't really effect how they generally would interact with you.
 
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Roper

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #479 on: July 23, 2019, 02:18:07 pm »
I lived in Texas for 18 years. Undocumented workers from Mexico pretty much dominated the labor force in housing construction and landscaping. Why? It's not because they were taking jobs away. It's because they would work outside in the Texas heat, which nobody else wanted to do. Same thing with the lettuce industry in southern Arizona.

We have a sad history with migrant labor. After slavery was abolished, the cry went out that newly freed slaves were taking away the jobs that white people wanted. Asian immigrants in 1800s, most notably ethnic Chinese, provided a lot of farm labor and manual labor that citizens were unwilling to do. The nation's railroad system couldn't have been built without them. When people started understanding their barbaric working conditions and demanded better, guess what the response was? "They're taking away our jobs." Same with Irish immigrants building roads and bridges and domestic work. If you didn't have African "help," you had Irish. And when they started moving upward economically, suddenly, "They're taking our jobs away."

It's a lie that's always been used to keep immigrants in their place.

"Go back to where you came from." Different words. Same sentiment.
 
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