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Jacaré

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #360 on: July 04, 2019, 12:03:32 am »
And you can't keep taxing the rich forever. The cost of "free" stuff:  free college, free health care (including for illegal immigrants), government funded abortions, and so forth would be beyond astronomical. And these kind of programs NEVER get smaller. They ALWAYS get bigger. And more expensive. And more inefficient. Eventually even the rich run out of money. Then what?
"He was old, Ephraim. He was 52."
 
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Roper

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #361 on: July 04, 2019, 12:34:23 am »
The one thing I agree with is universal health care. I doubt it would be more expensive than the $740 a month I already pay for a family policy which has all kinds deductibles, limits, and exclusions. I have never ever in my life dealt with an insurance company who wanted to actually cover medical bills for my family. They always try to find ways to exclude some service or portion of the bill. They are the most immoral business I've ever had to deal with. Seriously...they're worse than the DMV.
All grown-ups were once children...but only few of them remember it. ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "The Little Prince."
 

JLM

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #362 on: July 04, 2019, 01:28:41 am »
Quote
  their "happiness" comes from a higher consumption of anti-depressants, and there's more suicide. 

Hmm. I'll look that up.  Nope.  According to the World Health Organization, only 7 European nations have higher suicide rates than the USA, Russia is the top and all the others are former Soviet satellite states.  So apparently being close to Russia is bad for mental health.  That explains alot.

Now checking antidepressant use.  Wrong again.  USA has the highest use of antidepressants in the world, more than double most European countries. 

Roper, me thinks you have picked up the bad Trumpian habit of making up facts that suit your agenda.  Time to give up on Fox "News" and start learning something for reals on CNN or NPR.

 

JLM

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #363 on: July 04, 2019, 01:32:16 am »
Oh, and the only reason we might go into civil was would because if the right wing, fascist, gun nuts thought it more important to slaughter innocents than to accept a valid democratically decided policy.
 

JLM

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #364 on: July 04, 2019, 01:35:30 am »
 Ok, that last comment was a bit trollish, but really?   Civil war over an adjustment in tax policy?  Really?
 

Curelom

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #365 on: July 04, 2019, 01:42:43 am »
Separation of powers. Checks & balances. Donald, read the Constitution, Locke, & Montesquieu. All the world's wisdom isn't found in "The Art of the Deal."

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Trump-appears-to-contradict-administration-on-14069986.php

What worries me most about Trump is his lack of respect & even understanding for the rule of law. Never having worked a day before 2017 in government, military, diplomatic, educational, philanthropic, or any other area where he had to recognize any authority but his own, he is used to having his fiats unquestionably obeyed. Well, the United States of America is not the Trump Organization. We have a constitution that limits any one branch or individual from having dictatorial power. Watching Trump, it's clear that our national founders had prophetic vision & wisdom. He is just what they were guarding against.
 

Roper

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #366 on: July 04, 2019, 10:40:15 am »
Quote
Roper, me thinks you have picked up the bad Trumpian habit of making up facts that suit your agenda.  Time to give up on Fox "News" and start learning something for reals on CNN or NPR.

Making up facts? Nope. I got mine from the World Health Organization. If you want to exclude half of Europe, then Finland is still higher than the U.S. Also, WHO doesn't include doctor-assisted suicide, so it's actually higher in western Europe. The OECD data I looked at showed western European countries leading the world in the consumption of antidepressants. Additionally, I haven't watched FOX news in 15 years. I also don't watch CNN, because it's as much a propaganda outlet for the left as FOX is for the right. I get my news from NPR, BBC World Service, and Stratfor. We may disagree, JLM, but please don't assume I'm a Trump supporter. I am demonstrably not.

As I have said, there are policies in Europe which are worth consideration. However, I reject the left's rose-colored idolization of western European socialism as much as I reject the right's MAGA chanting idolization of rapacious corporatism. Both sides seem to hate moderate voters because we won't join with them in their crusades for ideological purity.

All grown-ups were once children...but only few of them remember it. ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "The Little Prince."
 
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Roper

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #367 on: July 04, 2019, 11:00:54 am »
I didn't vote for him last time, I found someone on the left who despised Hilary as much as I despised Trump from the right, and we both agreed to vote for Gary Johnson in a way that wouldn't just give a vote to the other side.
I did the same thing, NT. I don't know if that will be an option this time.
All grown-ups were once children...but only few of them remember it. ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "The Little Prince."
 
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Taalcon

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #368 on: July 04, 2019, 11:53:42 am »
As much as I might disagree with some of their approaches, when I listen to (most) of the current D candidates right now, I actually believe they want a better life for Americans.

When I listen to Trump, I only believe he wants to be seen as The Best In The Ratings. Everything. EVERYTHING he makes about HIM. He can't compliment anyone or anything without taking credit for it in some way. I haven't seen a single shred of evidence that Trump has an empathetic bone in his body. He makes policy decisions based on what he believes will get the greatest applause at his Rallys. While it would be naive to think all politicians don't do this to a degree, he is incapable of acknowledge a misstep, or that he did something wrong (It's actually something I'm seeing more and more of in Biden (although of a much lesser degree than Trump), which is still one of many things which keeps me very disinterested in him).

There's a difference between a Politician who learns and grows and changes positions based on getting better information (and learning more about the will of the people, and how it effects them), and someone who changes position because they saw something else was suddenly getting louder applause without grasping or dealing with the situation.  I wouldn't call the former a flip-flopper, I would call that person someone able to be humble and acknowledge they still could learn and develop and evolve.

Trump changes positions, and then claims he was always FOR that position, and his opponents, who may have been consistently FOR that position, he now claims have always been THE chief opponents of it! (See: No Insurance exclusions for Pre-Existing Conditions)

Trump isn't about making America Great. It's about winning for 8 years. Once his term is up, everything that crashes down he will blame on his successors (just as everything good that happened within his term, even from policies he had nothing to do with, he took credit for).

Trump has never been able to explain or defend any policy with any degree of nuance that convinces he knows what he's talking about. It's a word salad of superlatives and adjectives that makes clear someone showed him a chart, and told him it would be awesome, and that those who opposed it are BAD, and that his fans would LOVE IT.

You can't engage with Trump. You can't get him to explain his underlying thoughts and positions and logic, and have him adjust them, because he does not have them thought out. I have not seen any ANY evidence. I still listen to most of his speeches. They always make me sick, but I listen, because I try to find some evidence there's more beneath the surface, and I keep coming away with the conclusion that there's less. I also listen to them, because I want to hear it from his mouth, instead of rely on what others have said that he says. And what he actually says is constantly troubling, offensive, ignorant, obtuse, inaccurate, contradictory, and often what I would consider downright evil.

I've listened to the current Democratic debates. I think most of those on the stage will listen, can be reasoned with, and have a genuine desire to help the most amount of people, and do not see a high degree of people living in abject poverty as an acceptable loss. This resonates with me. I want to hear solutions.

The Republican Party has stopped trying to advocate for any position that is not popular with Trump's base. It has ceased to be its own independent functioning party, whatever you might think the merits of its past may have been, and has become a Trump enabler to stay in power. They've made a deal with the devil, and they're hoping to wade it out and hope that it's worth it.

I don't claim loyalty to any party (Besides what you might think from my recent posts, I have still to this day never voted for a Democratic candidate for President), and this is a key reason why. Any party can quickly and easily become a cult of personality, and the Republican Party is currently one of a dangerous and disgusting one, the worst caricature of America's worst brought to life and presented as the ideal.

Right now, several of the candidates for the Democratic party have ideals and goals that actually do resonate with me. I see many of them willing to work to find a solution that WORKS, and an ability to compromise that Trump will never have. Even Obama has gone on record saying he messed up in some of his early cavalier approaches. A democratic candidate winning right now (especially with the Popular and Electoral votes) would be a strong public repudiation of the things that Trump has done. That should be a substantial check on that power, and one that would be STRONGLY refuted in the midterms if it was felt they took too much power (much as happened with Obama).

Halting the Trump momentum for a single term I don't think could possibly lead to the transformation of the US into some vision of the 20th Century Soviet Bloc that people are dreading would happen. But the VERY strong momentum of Trump's eroding the rule of law and normalizing xenophobia and authoritarianism absolutely would deepen and become more troubling for not only many, many, many of our citizens, but also with our standing and relationship to the rest of the world.

And it's not worth a potentially nice temporary uptick in my savings to endorse that.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 03:31:23 pm by Taalcon »
 
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N3uroTypical

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #369 on: July 04, 2019, 05:16:31 pm »
Civil war over an adjustment in tax policy?  Really?

I know I'm not the only one who laughed out loud at this.  Someone else tell him - I can't bring myself to put it charitably.

The kicker is that he did it in the same post where he was admonishing Roper to watch more CNN.
What-about-ism is pointless. I like to think most people's responses to such arguments would be, "Yup. That person, who happened to wear the same political jersey I do/did, was totally wrong on that, too."
-Taalcon
 
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Jacaré

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #370 on: July 04, 2019, 05:48:39 pm »
I just posted the following on Facebook:

I haven't bought a Nike product in years, long before I ever heard of Colin Kaepernick with his ego sized hairdo and mediocre passing skills. Nike is a horrible company. Many of their products are made in Asian sweatshops where workers are paid near slave wages in miserable conditions.

If Kaepernick really wants to make a difference, instead of moral posturing he should put his ego to work convincing Nike to open plants in places like Compton or Detroit, or maybe one of the Central American countries where people are risking their lives coming here for economic opportunities.

But don't hold your breath. Virtue signalling is easy. Making a meaningful difference means putting your money where your mouth is. It takes sacrifice and courage; something sorely lacking at Nike.
"He was old, Ephraim. He was 52."
 
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Taalcon

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #371 on: July 04, 2019, 09:48:29 pm »
Genuine question: What do you see as the difference between
Quote
moral posturing
Quote
Virtue signalling

And

Quote
I just posted the following on Facebook:
I haven't bought a Nike product in years
Quote
It takes sacrifice and courage; something sorely lacking at Nike.
?

I've seen so many non-Nike buyers get mad that Nike made a corporate choice to not put an old flag on a shoe that they, the angry ones, would never have even considered giving them money and buying to begin with. It genuinely seems most of the public-posting angry responses and claims of boycotting and throwing away already purchased material (???) by non-targeted consumers of the product in question are, by definition, "Moral Posturing" and "virtue signalling". Can you help me understand how you see this differently?

For the record, I couldn't care less about Nike product. And looking into this controversy actually did make me aware of something I didn't know - that there have been (and still are) prominent White Supremacist groups for decades that have used the 13-star flag as a symbol of pre-emancipation idealism.

I don't think that suddenly makes the flag itself evil or wrong, but it does help me see the perspective of African Americans who understand that to many of their ancestors, the 13-star flag explicitly did NOT signify freedom or independence for them. Just a new Empire and a new set of masters.

I'm grateful for that perspective, and can understand why a corporation might want to take that into consideration as well, and not want to make the appearance of making an unintended statement that would bolster a group that has been feeling pretty well bolstered already lately.

Frankly, I wouldn't have thought the decision either way was the 'right' or 'wrong' one, and doesn't show courage or weakness anyway. It's a corporate decision.

But I am appreciative of the new awareness and perspective looking into this has given me. So for me, the controversy has had value, even though I am not at all invested in the actual outcome of the availability or not of the object or product.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 10:00:04 pm by Taalcon »
 
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Jason

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #372 on: July 05, 2019, 02:39:25 am »
Civil war over an adjustment in tax policy?  Really?

I know I'm not the only one who laughed out loud at this.  Someone else tell him - I can't bring myself to put it charitably.

The kicker is that he did it in the same post where he was admonishing Roper to watch more CNN.
I would assume you are talking about the Revolutionary war against Great Britain. Of course taxes and tariffs that are viewed unfairly will lead to wars, civil or otherwise.

There is not enough money among the top 1% to pay for all the give a ways that are promised, let alone the current obligations. The wealth inequity is quite discouraging, especially the top 0.1%. But they are easy scapegoats. It would likewise be silly to say that the top 1% in the world should pay to raise the standard of living for the rest of the 99% of the world, because that top 1% are those that make around $52,000/year, varying a little depending on where I get the information from. Imagine wanting to impose even a 50% tax on those that make that amount each year to distribute to the rest of the world. Riots in the street.

As someone who is more inclined to be a deficit hawk, I think the only practical solution is to raise taxes on everyone. But, as I have said before, you do not get elected by raising taxes on everyone. The Democrats are offering giveaways. The Republicans, too, in a different manner. Power is all that really matters.

I am not foolish enough to dismiss violence on either side. The left has certainly demonstrated a recent coziness with and defense and encouragement of Antifa, which is a group that seeks to impose its will with fear and violence. Their demonization of anyone who doesn't agree with them adds fuel to the fire. A brutal murder count like with Pol Pot could easily happen with enough encouragement. I also do not like the left's complete 180 on free speech.

If Trump loses he will leave office. This is not the kind of country where the leaders curry favor with the military in order to stay in power. To say otherwise is just to get the blood boiling among activists. But there is a lot of trolling out there on both sides.

Trump trolls the left. The fall for it every time. He enjoys being the foil. It makes him the center of attention. I do not wish him to win re-election. However, many of the ideas that are coming from the current batch of Democratic candidates are horribly flawed. I can hope that like most politicians they will not actually enact what they are espousing and govern a little more from the middle. But, Obama never really came to the middle, and much of his speech was pretty inflammatory and divisive, just not bombastic.

I could get behind Elizabeth's Warren's anti-corruption credentials. I could get behind Joe Biden's attempts at nuanced views on delicate issues, like bussing, which do not lend themselves well to 30 second sound bites. I just have a difficult time getting behind most of the other stuff that comes out of their mouths. But this comes back to the point that politicians are forced to pick a side on an issue and must argue for it without acknowledging that an alternate point of view exists. So ultimately, I am going to look for a wise and honest person to vote for, even if I disagree with some of their politics. If I do not think there is an honest person, I might then look for a side that I feel is less dishonest. Right now it is difficult to determine.
 
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Jacaré

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #373 on: July 05, 2019, 03:31:11 am »
I'm not aware of any difference between "moral posturing" and "virtue signalling." As far as I know, the terms are synonymous. I also tried to work in "performative wokeness," (I learned that from my hipster son who works in Hollywood) but it didn't seem to flow right.

I'm not trying to get anyone to boycott Nike. And I'm quite certain that I don't currently have any Nike gear to burn, throw away, or whatever. Yeah, that would be kind of pointless, since I would have already paid for it. But I made a personal decision at least 10, probably more years ago not to buy Nike products because of where and how their stuff is made.

My bigger point is that Nike tries very hard, for marketing purposes, to cultivate an image of being a socially conscious company, an image that is very much at odds with their actual business practices. If somebody cares (not everybody does, and that's OK) about the kind of company they spend their money on, and where that money goes, they might want to think twice about about spending it on a company that pays starvation level wages to impoverished workers in third world countries.
"He was old, Ephraim. He was 52."
 
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Taalcon

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Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
« Reply #374 on: July 05, 2019, 09:17:01 am »
Quote
I'm not aware of any difference between "moral posturing" and "virtue signalling." As far as I know, the terms are synonymous. I also tried to work in "performative wokeness," (I learned that from my hipster son who works in Hollywood) but it didn't seem to flow right.

Formatting muddled my question, I should have seen that. That's my bad.

The question was intended to be what is the difference between what you labelled with those terms, and what you did in declaring that you made a public statement on Facebook about your own stance about your judgment of CK's ego, and Nike's morals.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 09:24:03 am by Taalcon »
 
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