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Author Topic: Predictions for the coming General Conference?  (Read 15604 times)

Jana at Jade House

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Re: Predictions for the coming General Conference?
« Reply #225 on: October 08, 2019, 05:41:13 am »
And if that is what you are comfy with, then please keep your garments close to your skin. The specific is to help those who wish to wear their garments but for whatever reason must have other things underneath. I like mine skin snug but seams and other fitting issues made wearing any foundation garments over a personal penance for wearing a garment. So, no foundations at all for this sensitive skinned gal.  Golly  the new styles have even more seams.   sigh.
I have not seen any of conference yet but will catch up in the next days. lots of positives, even though a few grumped about Oakes talk.
a temple in Sierra Leone?  we have refugees here from there. all I can think is that the temple will be a place of safety, refuge and respite from the misery of life there.  It sure is not a place I would cheerfully visit.
 
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Taalcon

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Re: Predictions for the coming General Conference?
« Reply #226 on: October 08, 2019, 07:59:22 am »
And I'm sure women around the world will as well. (Up until last year, an ordinance worker still told my new sister-in-law when she received her ordinances that the garment must be worn under the bra)
I understood the placement to mean that they symbolize our covenants with God & nothing is to come between them & us.

That's a nice interpretation, and one I'm sure has brought meaning to you, but it is a personal one, not part of the formal instruction, and another note in the new letter also states, "Endowed members should seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit to answer personal questions about wearing the garment." - I think many were sharing their own private interpretations and passing them off as How Things Should Be, and causing unnecessary pressure and doctrinal reasoning why one should accept additional discomfort to do things a certain way. It's one thing to say, "This is how I do it, and why" and another to say "And everyone else should, too."

The new direction makes clear the general standard, and asks not to go further in instructing others.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 08:13:34 am by Taalcon »
 
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pnr

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Re: Predictions for the coming General Conference?
« Reply #227 on: October 09, 2019, 01:01:38 pm »
To me the letter said, "so long as you are wearing your garment underneath your outer clothing, we really don't intend to tell you there is one right way to wear them otherwise".
Nauvoo 1270, Feb 2005
 
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Roper

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Re: Predictions for the coming General Conference?
« Reply #228 on: October 09, 2019, 07:56:50 pm »
lots of positives, even though a few grumped about Oakes talk.
I can imagine what they grumped about. It's interesting that those parts are citations from President Nelson.
 

JLM

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Re: Predictions for the coming General Conference?
« Reply #229 on: October 09, 2019, 11:40:36 pm »
No, most of the grumping had been about the intitial "joke" at the expense of a woman with a valid theological concern.
 

Roper

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Re: Predictions for the coming General Conference?
« Reply #230 on: October 10, 2019, 01:31:19 pm »
You mean the letter from an unidentified person? Or the experience he had been given permission to share? I didn't take those as "jokes." I took them exactly as intended--introduction to his subject. I heard other people laugh. But that happens with a lot of un-funny remarks at general conference. Seriously...do people watch General Conference looking for stuff to get offended about?
 
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Jen

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Re: Predictions for the coming General Conference?
« Reply #231 on: October 10, 2019, 01:42:58 pm »
Seriously...do people watch General Conference looking for stuff to get offended about?

Yes.
 
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JLM

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Re: Predictions for the coming General Conference?
« Reply #232 on: October 10, 2019, 08:14:00 pm »
He did pause and smile, so I think he meant it as a lighthearted into to the subject.  The laughter sounded like "nervous laughter" at first.  My own thought was, "Hoo boy.  Where is he going with this?"  Over all, I thought the talk was net positive, specifically noting that we know very little about the nature of post mortal existence.  Nevertheless, polygamy is very problematic for many people, and their negative response to his opening is understandable.
 
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dyany

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Re: Predictions for the coming General Conference?
« Reply #233 on: October 10, 2019, 09:36:08 pm »
I have a number of friends, many of whom have left the church, who watch specifically to find stuff to get offended about, most especially Elder Oaks. It breaks my heart and makes me very sad. Some of them I have to do the 30 day sleep feature on just so I don't catch their vitriol and anger. I know that he is not the only apostle who knows and believes the things that he teaches on that specific subject, however, I feel that, for good reason, he has become the lightning rod to catch all of that hate, because the things need to be said and spreading the message between all the current apostles and prophets would make the haters hate ALL of them.
But after conference, I was struggling with how to deal with this. Some of my very dearest friends are strong, strong supporters of the LGBTQIA+ movement. With some of them, it is why they left the church.  But if there is one thing that I have learned in life, it is that God's commandments don't always make sense, and they are not always fun, but they are always right, and every single time I think I know better or this other obligation is more important (especially with me-specific commandments that are not nearly so clear), I always deeply regret it--though it sometimes takes a while for me to recognize the connection.
Sexualizing of love does not lead to happiness.
Putting too much importance on sex or attraction does not lead to happiness.
Abandoning so much that is good in your life because of the belief that your sexual attraction is the core of your being and the only path to happiness is something you will very much regret.
But at the same time, I love my friends dearly. I want to support them, including those who are gay or trans. I don't need to support every decision that they make to love and support them, just like they don't have to agree with every decision that I make to support me. Because sometimes we make poor choices, and sometimes we're just plain wrong, and that's okay because that's part of life and our love, like God's, should be unconditional, though that does NOT mean saving someone from consequences, or telling them everything they choose or believe is right, or never asking or requiring them to do something they don't like. Anyone who thinks those things are required for love should never have children.
So I was fretting and pondering about this, while avoiding the hate that was filtering into my feed within hours. Then I remembered that President Oaks said that if you are trying to navigate that delicate line, then pray a lot and ask for the guidance of the Spirit. So I did, and was prompted to ask a friend of mine how she deals with it.
This friend of mine is incredibly believing and strong in the gospel. Her husband was recently a bishop, and they go to the temple often. However, of her 9 kids, 1 is living with his girlfriend, and another still at home decided a couple of years ago that she is gay, and decided more recently that she was a guy and is currently 'transitioning.'  I stayed at their home just a couple of weeks ago while attending a writing conference, and the daughter/son who is transitioning is someone I love and I worked to use male pronouns with her when addressing her out of respect for her as a person, despite the fact that I feel that her decision is not the best. Because people make mistakes all the time. It doesn't help for me to hurt them or ostracize them or reprimand them.
So the next day (as these ponderings were late at night), I messaged my friend and asked her how she was doing. She knew exactly what I was asking about. She told me that she actually met President Oaks within the last year, as he talked in their stake, and she talked to him personally. She had been surprised at how much more easy going and loving and funny he was than he seems in GC. And she knew he was a prophet of God. So she knows what's right, and she is sad about her children's decisions, but she still loves and supports them. She said she has been blessed to be very believing, and when it comes to her children, she is very thoughtful and intentional. Her children know that. They know she is safe. They know they are loved. They also know that their decisions aren't the best, but not because of nagging or berating. Because they were taught the truth from a young age.

I will continue to love and support my friends, even if they choose to not accept it. I will not seek out contention, but I will stand up for what I know is right when necessary--which isn't as often as some people think it is, and is more often than others think it is, specifically because it's not about us but about helping others in the way the Spirit dictates because HE knows what is right. Which means sometimes being brave and standing up and saying something. And sometimes being humble and keeping our mouths shut or walking away. The Spirit will guide us.
 
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Roper

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Re: Predictions for the coming General Conference?
« Reply #234 on: October 10, 2019, 10:00:50 pm »
Nevertheless, polygamy is very problematic for many people, and their negative response to his opening is understandable.
Polygamy is very problematic for me. My first temple marriage ended in civil divorce. My second wife and I were sealed in the temple and have four children together. The most intolerable teaching was that if the first sealing remained in force, the first wife would have claim on all of the children. And I couldn't cancel the sealing to wife #1. Only she got that privilege. Thankfully, she decided after several years to get sealed to another man, and my first sealing was cancelled. Problem solved. So, my current spouse and I have lived though many years of the situation Elder Oaks was introducing. We didn't find it humorous. We didn't find it offensive or dismissive, either. Quite the opposite: We're very grateful he offered reassurance to those living through experiences similar to ours.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2019, 10:03:10 pm by Roper »
 
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JLM

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Re: Predictions for the coming General Conference?
« Reply #235 on: October 11, 2019, 12:01:43 am »
I'm of the belief that ordinances create options, not obligations, in the eternities.  No loving god would constrain anyone to be in a relationship they don't want.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 09:37:26 am by JLM »
 
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LMAshton

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Re: Predictions for the coming General Conference?
« Reply #236 on: October 11, 2019, 07:57:59 am »
I'm of the belief that ordinances create options, not obligations, on the eternities.  No loving god would constrain anyone to be in a relationship they don't want.
Yes, this.


Nauvoo Member #701 aka quidscribis, joined April 2003
 

Roper

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Re: Predictions for the coming General Conference?
« Reply #237 on: October 11, 2019, 08:31:13 am »
+1. I've come to the same understanding. Thank you for putting it so succinctly, JLM.
 
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Taalcon

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Re: Predictions for the coming General Conference?
« Reply #238 on: October 11, 2019, 08:32:35 am »
The sealing ordinances are designed to give hope. Where Baptism is a concrete moment that we experienced that we can look back to and say, "Here is where I acknowledged that God promised me Eternal Life", a sealing is where you can look back and say, "Here is where God promised our Family their mutual desires to be united eternally will be honored."

Most on-the-street Christians believe they'll be reunited with their families in the eternities. My protestant grandmother passed away this week. All family (non LDS) post about her now rejoicing with past family members who have died previously.

Our belief that families can be united by God forever isn't what is unique - what IS unique is having an ordinance that makes that promise explicit and concrete.

What makes it messy is the common LDS association concerned with what "Eternal Increase" means, and how it has traditionally been associated with literal physical/biological copulation with a legal spouse.

Where one who might likely be perfectly fine with the idea of spending the eternities in the presence of loved ones from previous marriages that ended in death, that becomes different when there very unique LDS idea that some form of physical sexual relationship and child-bearing comes into it while both are now 'living'. Those who would be okay with sharing a household working together in celestial glory to serve and better the universe become understandably unnerved when it comes to thinking about sharing their partner sexually.

That's absolutely understandable. And I think is a pretty healthy default response.

I think Elder Oaks' assurances to Trust The Lord, and Don't Focus on Doctrines We Don't Really Know About would be far more helpful if he wasn't such a STRONG proponent (even in this very conference!) of the idea that the only viable interpretation of Internal Increase is biological sexual reproduction.

Seeing as Joseph Smith (and the wide balance of scriptures) model is far more Adoption based than anything, and that no further scripture has been revealed on the subject, there IS room for him to say more to provide that we don't know.
But because he believes that he DOES know exactly how it will happen, the counsel comes across as Trust In The Lord That This Way Will Work, And It Will Be Okay, rather than, "What You're Thinking May Not Be How It Is".

That particular message in and of itself that Oaks gave was a good and valid message. The problem is that his history and vocal positions (also knowing that he actually is sealed to two women, but as the single male in the presumed eternal polygamous sexual relationship) made him perhaps not the most comforting person to deliver it to women seeking comfort in a different role in that relationship.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 09:44:40 am by Taalcon »
 
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AndrewR

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Re: Predictions for the coming General Conference?
« Reply #239 on: October 11, 2019, 12:36:39 pm »
Quote
What makes it messy is the common LDS association concerned with what "Eternal Increase" means, and how it has traditionally been associated with literal physical/biological copulation with a legal spouse.

Where one who might likely be perfectly fine with the idea of spending the eternities in the presence of loved ones from previous marriages that ended in death, that becomes different when there very unique LDS idea that some form of physical sexual relationship and child-bearing comes into it while both are now 'living'.

This is interesting. You are a convert, and as such ave come to this "understanding" I presume. However, for 50/54ths of my life I have been living with notion of being sealed to sealed parents. Never once have I been taught, or personally associated "Eternal Increase" with "physical/biological copulation with a legal spouse."

I have seen it as having Spirit Children. But never once have I had even the notion that these Spirit children come as the result of sexual intercourse. Does that mean that I do not believe Sexual intercourse will be possible, or even needed? No.

My belief is that the origins of Man/Woman on worlds is through such a method - Adam & Eve are the literal offspring of Heavenly Parents made "earthy".

But Eternal Increase - that requires Faith and Priesthood Power, together with whatever makes female Gods different from male ones.

Still a lot of unknowns. But producing spirit children for worlds without number via sexual intercourse - No.
Don't ask me, I only live here.
Nauvoodle since March 2005 #1412
 
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