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Author Topic: GSAW & TKAM  (Read 5296 times)

CrowGirl

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Re: GSAW & TKAM
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2016, 10:41:40 pm »
Curelom,

I know your kind heart, so I will assume that you were trying to be helpful.  I am fully aware of the seamy side of life, and how people act when they are part of that world.  I know it from personal experience, which is probably why I really have to be in the mood for it when it's in books, which is rare.  Thank you for the recommendations.  I will see what I can find at my local library when I finish what I am reading now.
Jump off the cliff and build your wings on the way down.
-Ray Bradbury
 
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dyany

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Re: GSAW & TKAM
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2016, 01:03:37 am »
I'm one of those who doesn't mind 'profane language,' for various reasons, but I don't like books that, for whatever reason, FOCUS on the filthy underbelly of human nature and condition.  In fact, I absolutely despise most of that ilk, especially because these days it seems to be required for 'literature.'  Can't ideas and writing have great literary value while showing things that are great and glorious?  eeeegad, people, the 'dark side of human nature' has become positively trite!
 
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Curelom

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Re: GSAW & TKAM
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2016, 03:05:44 am »
Yeah, there is too much literature (or “literature”) that dwells entirely on negativity. Life is tough enough that I don’t need to read every piece of depressing or seedy writing that appears. Steinbeck was not one of those. He depicted people, events, and lifetimes realistically, with the good and the bad.

I can tolerate some “language” if it can be justified as part of the story, but I have problems with excessive profanity, vulgarity, obscene or scatological language. When I see the “s” or “f” words every 3-4 pages, or characters describing every other person as a “son of a *****” or a “b****: or an “a******,” or the names of Deity continually taken in vain, when those things contribute nothing to the story, that’s when I get bristly.
 

dyany

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Re: GSAW & TKAM
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2016, 12:17:07 pm »
I do get very bothered when people take the Lord's name in vain, especially because most of the time these are professed Christians using the name of their God as an expletive.  What the heck?
As to other words, there are a few things I've learned: in different cultures around the world, even in different segments of society, the meaning of what constitutes a 'bad' word varies dramatically.  I am not going to say that someone from a different societal class or upbringing is dumber, or less 'holy,' because they use certain words a ton, even if I was taught that those words are 'bad.'  To me, that would be classist and rude.  Not to mention that I know a number of people from other segments of American society who don't trust people who WON'T swear, because they think they are either holier-than-thou judgmental people, or they are covering something up and being fake.   So whether you are the type who doesn't realize even the 'f' word or the 's' word could be considered rude, or you come from a family that is taught that the terms 'stupid' or 'shut up' are 'bad' (I've known MANY LDS families that have been taught that), or you just plain use the word 'like' too much (which can be grammatically offensive. ;P ), I'm not going to be flinchy or a shrinking violet around you for being who you are.  It's about respect, and valuing the person above their language.
However, though those words themselves have no power and are not really 'bad,' I also recognize that some people see them as such, and hearing them bothers them.  So if I know or can reasonably assume that certain words are going to bother you, I will try to avoid using them around you (though if you are offended by words like 'stupid' or 'shut up,' I will probably forget sometimes).  Again, it's about respect.  Not about the words. 
Now, there ARE people out there that will TRY to specifically use words that they KNOW will offend you, either for the shock value or because they hate 'goody two-shoe rule followers' (considering them 'sheeple' or part of 'The Man') and they WANT to offend or 'teach you about reality.'  If it is an emotionally charged situation and they honestly feel like the situation calls for shock value, I am more forgiving.  But I really can't tolerate either of those groups otherwise.  Because to them, it is the opposite of respect for others that drives them. 

Sorry I'm continuing on this wild tangent.  Have you finished GSAW yet, Curelom?  I don't want spoilers (more for others' sakes than mine), but I would like to know if you thought it was good enough to be worth reading, despite the changes in Atticus's character.
 

Curelom

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Re: GSAW & TKAM
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2016, 01:52:42 am »
I once had a teacher who would ding us for saying “shut up.” We’d have to do extra writing drills (repetitive ones, not creative ones).   ::)

This tangent reminds me of the old joke about the mother who was trying to teach her daughter to use “genteel” language, & she told the girl, “There are a few words I do not wish to hear you use. They are lousy, rotten, and crappy.” The girl replied, “I understand, Mom. What are the words?”  ;D

I think some people emit a cuss word or vulgarity every 3 or 4 sentences because they have extremely limited vocabularies & poorly developed abilities to express themselves in more cultured, civil ways. While some use vulgar language because they know it offends or annoys many people & they think they’re showing how independent, non-conformist, & defiant they are being. People who sit in restaurants or other public places & barf up a stream of crude language at a volume that makes it obvious they mean for the world to hear them are more to be pitied than anything else.

As for GSAW, I haven’t finished it yet. I’ve gotten to the part where on her visit home, Jean Louise (Scout) has found that her father and suitor both belong to the White Citizens’ Council, and she is growing more conscious of the racial attitudes of many people she has known all her life. Her aunt, Atticus’s sister, gives a Coffee (sic) for her, a daytime social to which all her female acquaintances are invited. Jean Louise picks up more racial undertones during this Coffee, & she also thinks how little she has in common with these women. That’s where I am.

I haven’t decided on the merits of the story yet. It might take me until the end, if the end reveals why Atticus has gone through this unlikely transformation. I’m wondering if Harper Lee is trying to make some kind of point; I’m not sure.
 

dyany

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Re: GSAW & TKAM
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2016, 04:45:27 pm »
I agree with and appreciate much of your post, Curelom, except for one part:
Quote
because they have extremely limited vocabularies & poorly developed abilities to express themselves in more cultured, civil ways.


I super appreciate things like fine art, classical music (and lots of other music), museums, etc.  I also like a ton of classic literature and history.  Most people would consider those tastes 'cultured,' but I've come to realize that, even though Mormon culture puts a lot of value on those things, they are more classist than anything. 
The different social classes have always grown up with different cultural traditions.  Because higher classes usually have more money and more free time, they have far more opportunities to learn about other cultures (hence the word 'cultured') and to dedicate time and effort to developing traditions and behaviours that were not only unnecessary for day to day life, but also separated them from the 'lower' classes.  And of course, since they were also the ones who kept the history and the literature (since they were the ones who had the opportunities to learn to read and time to write), and the ones who controlled the government and commerce, they of course were easily able to convince everyone, including subsequent generations, that THEIR traditions were better, and if you lived up to those standards, it indicated you were a better person. 
I have run into a number of people from other cultures--not just from other countries, but from other American regions and other social classes.  Some of them are just rude to be rude.  But there have been a number of them who use what we would consider 'crude' language, or 'uncivil' behavior, which is their culture of origin is not only not offensive, but friendly.  I feel that to say they use those words because they have limited vocabularies (think about it--if there are 'big' words we know that they don't, it's usually because of less opportunity for education, not choice.  When we limit our vocabularies because some words are 'crude,' it's our choice to be word snobs), or because they have 'poorly developed abilities,' is extremely classist and even rude.  I know a TON of 'nice Mormon people' who wouldn't use a 'crude' word to save their lives, but they still have ridiculously limited, plebeian, and vapid vocabularies.  At the same time, I know other people who use what we call 'swear words' regularly, who are very educated and erudite with VAST vocabularies (and if they are particularly wise, they also know when it is prudent to avoid using those words that may be offensive to their audience). 

 
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Roper

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Re: GSAW & TKAM
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2016, 07:16:11 pm »
I think the behavior which truly reveals character, whether in literature or in real life, is the way the person treats other people.
All grown-ups were once children...but only few of them remember it. ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "The Little Prince."
 
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Randy

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Re: GSAW & TKAM
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2016, 02:41:47 pm »
"I’m wondering if Harper Lee is trying to make some kind of point; I’m not sure."

GSAW was written first, and that Harper Lee was entirely ignorant of the content of TKAM when she wrote it.  So there's no point.
 

 


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