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Roper

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Impeachment
« on: February 12, 2021, 04:57:52 pm »
I've been listening when I have time in my schedule. Right now, the senators are asking questions at the end of the proceedings.

My question:

On January 6th, President Trump said, "We love you, you’re very special."

Today, Trump's legal defense called the same people criminals who should be punished to the maximum extent possible.

So...which is it?
All grown-ups were once children...but only few of them remember it. ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "The Little Prince."
 
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Curelom

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2021, 10:45:57 pm »
Quote
So...which is it?

The answer is, as it always is, "It depends."

One of the laws of nature is that there is no such thing as a vacuum. A void will always be filled by matter or energy. Trump cannot clear himself of blame for something that obviously happened & was someone's doing, without finding some other entity to pin it on. Because it didn't just pop up ex nihilo.

When he was as high as a kite on the energy & adulation of his followers, he gave no thought to that other law of nature: everything that goes up must come down. He forgot that when the energy dissipated & it was time to pay up, there would be accountability & he or they would need to take the blame. With the payment now due, he has no interest in taking part in it, so those poor souls that he loved who were so special on January 6 are now just material to desperately throw into a dike that was never sound to begin with.

In 2021 terms, it's called throwing someone under the bus.
 
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Curelom

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2021, 10:57:51 pm »
His defense attorneys say his speeches that provoked the violence that threatened VP Pence & hundreds of members of Congress were “ordinary political rhetoric.”

While he was engaging in “ordinary political rhetoric,” hundreds of Congress & staff members were under siege in the chambers or their offices while violent mobs, some armed, chanted “Fight for Trump,” attacked police, beat on doors, actually broke into some. Nancy Pelosi’s aides were barricaded in an inner office as their outer door gave way, probably praying their YKW’s off that the inner door would hold. (“They” say there are no atheists in foxholes, right?) Capitol police were bodily yanking Congress members out of harm’s way. The Vice President of the United States was within a few steps of being physically harmed or taken hostage by rioters yelling “Hang Mike Pence.”

If it was just ordinary political rhetoric, how come no speech of Presidents Obama, Bush I or II, Clinton, Reagan, Carter, Nixon, Kennedy, Eisenhower, etc. etc. etc. ever resulted in an armed invasion of the Capitol by mobs hell-bent on overturning the people’s decision, intimidating & possibly murdering their duly elected public officials?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-lawyers-rest-defense-in-senate-impeachment-trial/ar-BB1dDhTI?ocid=msedgntp

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Senators-to-hear-opening-arguments-as-Trump-fumes-15938543.php

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Impeachment-trial-shows-him-under-attack-but-15945406.php

https://www.deseret.com/utah/2021/2/10/22277091/capitol-police-directs-mitt-romney-safety-capitol-riot-donald-trump-impeachment-trial
 
It’s distressing to Americans who believe in the rule of law that this happened. It is even worse that a president made it happen, egged it on, then sat & watched on TV while his mobs literally assaulted our form of government. Finally, it is shameful that some jurors in a trial on charges of inciting sedition will refuse to weigh the evidence, clinging to the party line & their misguided loyalty & what is basically idol worship of Trump. There are dozens of national disgraces sitting in the Capitol who should be ashamed to call themselves the people’s servants or representatives.
 
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Curelom

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2021, 08:00:38 pm »
Trump acquitted in the second Senate miscarriage of justice.

Again, we need to emphasize that the law does not say a person is innocent until proven guilty, but PRESUMED innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. And “acquitted” does not mean “found not guilty.” It means “not found guilty.” There is a huge difference. "Acquitted" means either 1). After careful deliberation, the required number of jurors was not convinced of guilt by the evidence, or 2). Enough jurors decided not to consider even convincing evidence & relied on some other reason to decide against a guilty verdict. Based on the evidence we saw in this case, I think we know what happened in this case.

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/trump-impeachment-trial-02-13-2021/index.html

The vote was 57-43 for conviction, including seven Republicans. Thank you to those seven Americans.

In the eyes of history, the actual verdict isn’t such a big deal. Anyone knows who saw the evidence, & who has followed this story not only since January 6 but through Trump’s history of trying to corrupt, subvert, & undermine our form of government. History will not be kind to Trump, but will THANK Richard Burr, Bill Cassidy, Susan Collins, Lisa Murkowsky, Mitt Romney, Ben Sasse, & Patrick Toomey, who chose their country over their party & justice over blind, unthinking fealty to a failed, disgraced “president” who betrayed us & our country in ways we will feel for years. As for the other 43, “chickens” would not be a proper word for them because chickens have backbones.

And don't forget, civil laws can prevail elsewhere, & the Senate has no jurisdiction over federal tax laws or prosecution by a city or state. Crimes like fraud, conspiracy, tax evasion, inciting riots or sedition or soliciting criminal acts, can be prosecuted in venues where no number of spineless, gutless Senators can shun their duty & refuse to call out criminal behavior for what it is.
 
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Roper

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2021, 08:38:05 pm »
Impeachment is not a legal trial. It is a political trial. For many elected officials, votes of constituents are more important than reasoning and evidence. The outcome had been determined before the procedure began.
All grown-ups were once children...but only few of them remember it. ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "The Little Prince."
 
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dyany

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2021, 12:20:24 am »
I care far less about history and more about how this will look before God.
Did you let power or money or influence take precedence over the law? Over what was right? Over what was good? Did you use flattering words to preach what was pleasing to the carnal mind?
I see so many echoes of the fall of the Jaredites and the fall of the Nephites. And it is brought about by the wickedness of the people.
 
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Jason

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2021, 01:18:02 am »
The malfeasance of Trump does not excuse the malfeasance of the Democrats. It is like Shiz and Coriantumr each claiming to be more righteous than the other.

Just in terms of the impeachment, this was the wicked hypocrites judging the wicked hypocrite.

And on a procedural basis, the Democrats did a horrible job and should likely be fired for how badly they mismanaged this. If this were a legal procedure, then due process and rules of evidence were not followed. It was rushed, leaving most of the investigation unexplored. They wanted new witnesses to testify, not even considering that that would open the door to witnesses being called for by the defense, which would lead to embarrassment for them. Those are the types of things to be explored in the impeachment hearings in the house, which were not done. Their article of impeachment listed 'incitement', which has a very specific legal definition set by supreme court precedent, and his speech on January 6th clearly did not meet that legal definition. They should have used more wishy washy word that didn't have a set legal definition set by supreme court precedent.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2021, 09:06:31 am by Jason »
 
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Roper

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2021, 10:51:42 am »
Yep. It was a political trial, not a legal one.

I laughed each time Trump's legal team brought up the "But they do it, too!" argument. Here's the explanation of that maneuver from Wikipedia: "Whataboutism, also known as whataboutery, is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument. Whataboutism is particularly associated with Soviet and Russian propaganda."

If I had gone to the Capitol, understanding, as many did, that Democrats were stealing the election and that my President was asking me to do my patriotic duty and fight to stop them, and then when I heard the President's legal defense team call me a criminal over and over--a message broadcast to the world--I would feel betrayed.

The clearest message which came out of the impeachment is that Donald Trump will crush other people to elevate himself, as he has always done. It's sad to see what he has done to the good and patriotic people of the Republican party--a party I once overwhelmingly supported before Trump remade it in his own image. At least there are some elected officials who can see that.
All grown-ups were once children...but only few of them remember it. ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "The Little Prince."
 
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Jason

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2021, 10:44:28 pm »
There are good reasons to have established legal precedent and equal application of the law. 'Rules for thee but not for me' is one cause of distrust of government on important things, like public health information. I would not dismiss these objections as simple whataboutism.
 
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dyany

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2021, 12:44:43 am »
Legal precedent in this case would apply to the reason why so many GOP senators chose to acquit Mr. Trump: they claimed it was unconstitutional to impeach after his term of office ended.
So let's look at the precedent. Ignoring the fact that the majority of constitutional scholars absolutely said it was legal and constitutional, and ignoring the fact that this excuse for acquittal (along with statements made by those who chose to acquit) shows that they do believe he did what he was accused of but are trying to pander to their conservative constituencies, there is also precedent.
Presidents are not the only elected positions who can be impeached. And impeachment after certain elected officials' (usually judges, from what I have read) terms have ended HAS happened, and was considered absolutely legal and constitutional.

 
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Roper

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2021, 01:02:19 am »
There are good reasons to have established legal precedent and equal application of the law.
I completely agree. And equal application absolutely applies to the President of the United States.
I would not dismiss these objections as simple whataboutism.
And yet, impeachment proceedings were not initiated against members of the House or Senate. Not even censure or other disciplinary measures. There was plenty of time.  Four years. It didn't appear until Trump's impeachment. "But they do it too!" was whataboutism in it's finest example--brought up as an attempt to distract examination of the real issue at hand. I see it every day at my school. When a kid gets caught breaking the rules, the first response is almost always denial. Then, when confronted with evidence, the next response is almost always, "Well, she was doing it too." I consistently reply, "I will investigate that. Right now, we're discussing what you did."

It was such a childish attempt by Trump's lawyers. The adults in the room saw it for what it was.
All grown-ups were once children...but only few of them remember it. ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "The Little Prince."
 
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pnr

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2021, 03:59:58 pm »
Quote
terms have ended HAS happened, and was considered absolutely legal and constitutional.

The info I've read say that there was controversy then. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/meet-the-press/meet-other-american-who-was-impeached-tried-after-leaving-office-n1255516

  There is no caselaw interpreting the impeachment clause that I know about (and given that impeachment is a political decision I've not sure a court should be involved in it anyway).   When I read the clause it seems clear that it is to remove people from the office they're abusing.   (And given that I think it would be silly to impeach Clinton for misuse of her emails system, or Rice for lying about Benghazi now that several years later we know that they did wrong in those things, I'm thinking limiting it to current officer holders is also quite wise.)
Nauvoo 1270, Feb 2005
 
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Jason

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2021, 01:01:50 am »
Senator Mike Lee voted to acquit because the Democrats did not present evidence of incitement, which has a clear legal definition. He based his vote off of a traditional US judicial trial where evidence needs to be presented to prove the facts and allegations. The Democrats did not do that.

Senator Mitt Romney voted to convict because he viewed the trial not as a traditional US judicial proceeding, but rather as an opportunity for the Senate to repudiate a president he believed was acting immorally and leading the country to a dangerous place, even if Trump's words and actions were not illegal.

Two different honest frameworks for reaching two different verdicts.
 
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Roper

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2021, 03:36:47 pm »
Two different honest frameworks for reaching two different verdicts.

That's an excellent way to put it, Jason. I actually like both of them. I think they both do a good job of representing the citizens of Utah.
All grown-ups were once children...but only few of them remember it. ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "The Little Prince."
 

 


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