Welcome to New Nauvoo


Author Topic: masks in church  (Read 2030 times)

Redd

  • MembersOnly
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 129
  • Thanked: 166 times
  • Country: us
  • when life gives you lemons, make grape juice!
    • View Profile
masks in church
« on: November 08, 2020, 01:40:33 pm »
I have a very dear friend (I will call him Adam for this forum) who is opiniated, loud, creative, occasionally obnoxious, well informed and not so well informed etc, etc etc...you get the idea.

He has never denied the gospel, the BOM, the priesthood authority on earth.

He has been inactive for the better part of the past 20 years but has started to attend various wards and came back 'home' to our ward today.

  The regional authorities have stated that masks are required for services, though if you do not wear one you will not be kicked out of the building. The governor of New Mexico has MANDATED masks at all locations outside of private property. My stake has complied with the request from both the regional representative  and the governor.  Adam comes to our ward, his original home ward and where his current house is located, with out a mask. No big deal really.   AFTER church is when the big deal starts.

  After services, Adam goes outside and sits on a landscape boulder on the lawn near the door with a sign that had a picture of a mask and the words secret combinations on it. We went over to talk to him and he went on (it should be noted that his voice level is eitherLOUD or off) with his spiel about freedom of religion, quoting Ezra Taft Benson and being louder than he normally is.  Hick and I hugged him and started to leave when a member of the bishopric sauntered over to talk to him. 

  Adam was bringing up the following points: does the government have the right to mandate what you can wear to a church meeting? Does the government have the right to forbid singing in a church?  Does the government have the right to limit the number of congregants that can attend a service? Why isn't the Church fighting the secret combinations that are seeking to destroy our freedom of religion?

  According to NM Gov. Michelle Lujan Grisham, churches can only have 25% occupancy (it used to be 10% but she had to up it because retail stores are mandated to have no more than 25%)  as per the fire department code, no singing, if musical instruments are played that require breath (flute etc) they have to be away from the people on the stand were they are playing.

  So is this the skinny as to what is going on here in the desert. What do any and all of you say to this? What have your governors said about masks and church services?
 
The following users thanked this post: Roper

nitasmile

  • MembersOnly
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 144
  • Thanked: 124 times
    • View Profile
Re: masks in church
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2020, 02:00:31 pm »
Your third paragraph says it all. Sorry but mask wearing and limited congregants at this time is about living each other and helping keep each other safe. Sounds like he came back to make a political statement. Glad he has you and your husband to care for him.
 
The following users thanked this post: Jen, Roper, Redd

pnr

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 525
  • Thanked: 633 times
  • Country: us
    • View Profile
Re: masks in church
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2020, 02:32:33 pm »
Those church members who claim mask requirements infringe on their constitutional right to freedom of religion are just wrong.   Just as crying "fire" in a crowded theater is not protected speech, other behavior that creates safety risks can fully be prohibited and still comply with our Constitution (and for heaven's sake, common sense).   (When government says you can open bars, but not churches, THAT is likely discriminating against religious freedom as it is the number of people and the nearness that needs regulation and masks, not the subject matter of the gathering.)

Further, if he wants to die, or risk dying and medical bills, discipleship requires loving our fellow men which requires in this time wearing a mask to protect others from ourselves, even if we are personally willing to be take unreasonable risk and not protect ourselves.

And finally, our leaders, through called servants have set out our church rules.   We are required to honor their instructions as a condition of attending services.   If we don't want to mask, we can stay home.
Nauvoo 1270, Feb 2005
 
The following users thanked this post: dyany, Roper, Redd

Jason

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 345
  • Thanked: 554 times
  • Country: us
    • View Profile
Re: masks in church
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2020, 03:40:29 pm »
There has been hypocrisy from various government entities when making Covid regulations. These regulations often adversely affect religious institutions when compared to more favored groups. There are many, many examples, but one is to allow the operation of casinos but not churches. Add to this a pervasive and vocal hostile sentiment from a large segment of the country toward churches and religious groups. Add to this the elevation of wearing a mask to a near religious ritual (even if 95% of people wear them improperly), and this can lead the 'oppressed' people to believe that there is an active effort to suppress and eliminate churches and public religion.

This outcome was predicted when the government officials first started making these regulations. Instead of doubling down, the government officials need to recognize that they are responsible and need to work doubly hard at winning people back.

 
The following users thanked this post: Roper, Redd

Roper

  • Administrator
  • Thousand Year Egg Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 2091
  • Thanked: 3026 times
  • Country: us
  • Earning my spurs.
    • View Profile
Re: masks in church
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2020, 07:05:59 pm »
There are a number of students at my school whose parents have written to me saying that their child has a constitutional right to go to school maskless. My response has become, "I want to keep our school open for in-person attendance as long as possible. I don't want to give the state any cause for shutting us down and making us go online. Please encourage your child to wear a mask." When I put it like that, parents are more willing to go along.

Look, we can argue about the philosophical and religious points of government mask requirements. To what end? Jason alluded to the fact that there is growing sentiment against religious freedom in our government. Let's not put fuel on that fire. Lets not give the government any more reasons to take actions against religious freedom. Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. Obey the government health orders and wear the stupid mask.
All grown-ups were once children...but only few of them remember it. ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "The Little Prince."
 
The following users thanked this post: Redd

Jen

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 347
  • Thanked: 513 times
  • Country: us
    • View Profile
Re: masks in church
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2020, 07:07:29 pm »
No government mandate in our area, but our stake leaders are finally asking people to wear them. More than half are, which is an improvement. Still not enough that we feel safe going. I go on alternate Sundays to play organ but I just slip in and out.
 
The following users thanked this post: Roper, Redd

Taalcon

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 788
  • Thanked: 1378 times
    • View Profile
Re: masks in church
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2020, 07:49:12 pm »
"Please do your part in what is required in these unusual circumstances. And remember that some of the burdensome restrictions, including even the wearing of masks, are not only for your immediate protection but also for the well-being of those around you." - President Dallin H. Oaks
 
The following users thanked this post: Jen, dyany, Roper, Patty Rain, Redd

AndrewR

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 640
  • Thanked: 900 times
  • Country: gb
    • View Profile
Re: masks in church
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2020, 08:28:36 pm »
With a fresh four-week lockdown in place in the UK we have had to stop having religious meetings. we can only use the meetinghouse to broadcast. So the Bishop, his first counsellor, and myself were the only ones in the chapel for the Zoom meeting. No Sacrament.

We were at least four metres apart from each, and we all still wore masks because that is what we have been asked to do. AoF 11, right?

Don't ask me, I only live here.
Nauvoodle since March 2005 #1412
 
The following users thanked this post: Jen, Roper, Redd

Jason

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 345
  • Thanked: 554 times
  • Country: us
    • View Profile
Re: masks in church
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2020, 09:48:28 pm »
Earlier in the spring there was opposition to wearing masks based on fears that masks would detrimentally affect oxygen and carbon dioxide levels. So I did experiments wearing various types of masks while using the anesthesia machine's monitors to make comparisons about CO2 and oxygen levels. In summary, masks were safe to wear. Those posts were some of the most widely shared posts I had ever put out.

But over the summer and now into the fall opposition to mask usage has continued, and often by the same people who were first citing low oxygen and high CO2 levels. They have added in other reasons, like masks are ineffective and stifling of freedoms. This makes me consider that their opposition has little to do with the evidence leading them to oppose the mask mandates, but rather that they oppose the mask mandates and are now looking for evidence to support their pre-existing beliefs.

The freedom one is easier to address, as I think a libertarian viewpoint is that one can exercise rights as long as they do not interfere with the rights of others, and masks are there to protect others. Similar to the libertarian reason for required vaccinations. We do it to protect the vulnerable, not necessarily the healthy.

The ineffectiveness of masks is one that is harder to refute, because if I look at graphs of positive tests, hospitalizations, and deaths with implementation of mask mandates, there isn't a huge difference in trend lines when compared with areas that do not have mask mandates.

This can likely be explained by a number of confounding variables. Foremost is using "intent to treat" with mask mandates. It is common in medical studies to not compare only those that stick to taking the proposed treatment against placebo, but instead all of those who were assigned to the proposed treatment, even if they didn't comply very well. From my non-scientific observation, 95% of people do not wear masks correctly, which makes them ineffective. One needs to sanitize ones hand before putting it on, put it on correctly, then sanitize one's hands again, then not touch the mask, or if you do touch it, sanitize your hands again. Also, the mask needs to be washed after every use and a clean mask worn every time. This is a high burden and makes it much more likely that masks as worn in the general population are not effective. This goes all the way to the top. Every time I see Joe Biden on TV he is fiddling with his mask without subsequently sanitizing his hands.

Masks may also not be as effective as we want because we do not truly understand the transmission of the virus. Is it droplets? Is it aerosol. Can it be spread by getting in your eyes? How long does an infectious dose remain airborne?

Finally, social distancing likely does more than masks do.

But those that oppose masks are generally not looking into this much detail. They just want any justification to support their desired result.
 
The following users thanked this post: LMAshton, Jen, Roper, Redd

Redd

  • MembersOnly
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 129
  • Thanked: 166 times
  • Country: us
  • when life gives you lemons, make grape juice!
    • View Profile
Re: masks in church
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2020, 11:02:23 pm »
Many of you wrote what I was thinking but could not express it.

  I for one do not like masks. I comply with the local and state ordinances when ever I need to. I miss singing in church (they hid our books!) and having choir practice and putting on the yearly freecycle.
 
The following users thanked this post: Roper

cook

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 587
  • Thanked: 645 times
  • Country: fi
    • View Profile
Re: masks in church
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2020, 02:05:41 pm »
And here in Finland the situation has been that the church guidelines have been stricter than the governments and that has bugged us - we could have had the youth events during summer,  but the Europe area presidency forbid - to have same rules for everyone in  the area. But we did not rebel and say we'll have them anyway.

What would "Adam" have said in such a situation where it is the church leaders putting the restrictions.

(Now the government is catching up with the masks. This week adults in all school will start wearing them. So far it's been only in senior high.)
 
The following users thanked this post: Roper, Redd

Jana at Jade House

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 406
  • Thanked: 740 times
  • Country: nl
  • Express of All She Surveys
    • View Profile
Re: masks in church
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2020, 05:12:59 am »
Because the Dutch are tired of it all, our numbers went up and deaths happened, along with hospital admissions.
I am now watching my unit broadcast on Sunday.  Bare faces. If  a mask is on, it gets touched constantly.  Podium is never sanitized even after Sister sings the hymns to us.  They even had a trio sunday.  They were sort of spaced. I hope the pianist stays healthy.
The camera pans the chapel and not.one.soul. is masked.
The RS is planning a music and dance get together in the building.  I think it is illegal because even funerals and weddins are strictly limited.  They promise lots of laughter and a corona proof activity.  With masks, and clean your own restroom before and after use.
The Reproduction number is above 1.
All my alarm bells are going off.
I was in the hospital for tests last week and the number of masks below the nose was remarkable.
This is why I rarely leave my property.
 
The following users thanked this post: LMAshton, Curelom, Roper, Redd

curlybat

  • MembersOnly
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 159
  • Thanked: 179 times
    • View Profile
Re: masks in church
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2020, 10:07:13 pm »
In the midst of a resurgence in several countries, including those with mask mandates, it seems masks can only do so much. Covid lingers in the air for a longer period than previously thought (per the CDC). I suspect that those who wear masks are probably most often the healthy and masks do more to protect the unhealthy from infecting others than the other way around.  However, I wear a mask where requested and required without putting up a fuss. There are more important hills to die on and better ways to express my freedoms. If I exhibited any symptoms, I would prioritize isolation and wear a mask at all times when a public excursion is absolutely necessary. We've chosen activities that take us into nature as a family rather than public spots with lots of people.

That being said, when distancing is not possible, our stake asks that members wear masks. So, I do when I can't social distance (I do find they impede my breathing regardless of the lack of any documented ill effects). I haven't heard any protesting from others. Some wear their masks the whole time. Those who are more vulnerable watch sacrament meeting from home.  Sunday School, Priesthood and Relief Society is done through Zoom for interaction. Areas are "disinfected" after church is over (most people don't leave disinfectants on a surface long enough to kill anything but even the action of wiping removes some contaminants).

I find the best way to deal with people that always seem to have something to complain about is to let them be. Don't feed a fire you don't want to spread.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2020, 07:38:10 pm by curlybat »
Still TheOne and only me who happens to now be curlybat.

Nauvoodle since September 2001 (#431)
 
The following users thanked this post: Redd, Palmon, nitasmile

Iggy

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 390
  • Thanked: 365 times
  • Country: us
    • View Profile
Re: masks in church
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2020, 04:42:16 am »
I find the best way to deal with people that always seem to have something to complain about is to let them be. Don't feed a fire you don't want to spread.
Or to put out their fire. <3
 
The following users thanked this post: Redd

Curelom

  • MembersOnly
  • Thousand Year Egg Club
  • *
  • Posts: 1668
  • Thanked: 1467 times
  • Country: us
    • View Profile
Re: masks in church
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2020, 03:25:02 pm »
I'm with the majority that say they don't like masks. Who does? We do a lot of things we don't like if we want to live in a civilized society.

If you ask the anti-maskers why they are OK with speed limits, stop signs, lines dividing two-way traffic on the street, DUI laws, fire restrictions in hot, dry weather, or fences around reservoirs holding their drinking water, what would their answer be?

Do they rinse their produce before eating it, or put mesh over their food at a picnic to keep flies off the potato salad or chocolate cake?

Why are they (generally) obeying those dumb stop signs anyway, when everyone knows they violate our personal freedoms?


 
The following users thanked this post: LMAshton, Patty Rain

 


* Recent Topics

topic Andrew
[General Discussion]
LMAshton
Today at 09:24:34 am
topic COVID-19
[Covid-19]
Roper
Today at 09:00:52 am
topic Cabin 2.0
[General Discussion]
Curelom
Today at 12:43:00 am
topic Throw-together recipes
[Cooking, Food, and Food Storage]
pnr
January 24, 2021, 10:02:57 pm
topic Household & travel hints
[Everything Else]
Curelom
January 24, 2021, 05:25:33 pm
topic Y'all want a bunch of new members?
[General Discussion]
GoodyScrivener
January 22, 2021, 11:08:55 pm
topic New Weird News Thread
[Current Events & News]
pnr
January 21, 2021, 05:22:49 pm
topic A Modest Prediction
[Politics]
Roper
January 21, 2021, 01:29:11 pm
topic Current Events - US Politics Edition
[Politics]
Curelom
January 20, 2021, 12:31:07 pm
topic masks in church
[Doctrines & Scholarship]
Roper
January 17, 2021, 09:34:15 pm
topic God is merciful
[Latter-day Saint Life]
cook
January 17, 2021, 01:53:24 pm
topic The Feel-Good Thread
[Current Events & News]
Curelom
January 15, 2021, 04:05:31 am
topic Card Making
[Crafts]
pnr
January 13, 2021, 07:00:39 pm
topic More for women to do
[News of the Church]
pnr
January 12, 2021, 04:26:59 pm
topic Backyard Chickens
[Cooking, Food, and Food Storage]
Curelom
January 10, 2021, 01:31:44 am

* Calendar

January 2021
Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 [26] 27 28 29 30
31

No calendar events were found.

* Recent Posts

Andrew by LMAshton
[Today at 09:24:34 am]


Re: COVID-19 by Roper
[Today at 09:00:52 am]


Re: COVID-19 by Jana at Jade House
[Today at 07:48:50 am]


Re: COVID-19 by Jason
[Today at 01:59:51 am]


Re: Cabin 2.0 by Curelom
[Today at 12:43:00 am]


Re: COVID-19 by Curelom
[Today at 12:39:02 am]


Re: COVID-19 by Hobbes
[January 25, 2021, 11:28:00 pm]


Re: COVID-19 by Roper
[January 25, 2021, 10:29:13 pm]


Re: COVID-19 by nitasmile
[January 25, 2021, 09:59:05 pm]


Re: COVID-19 by Hobbes
[January 25, 2021, 06:20:31 pm]


Re: COVID-19 by Sparky
[January 25, 2021, 06:14:57 pm]


Re: COVID-19 by Palmon
[January 25, 2021, 05:13:00 pm]


Re: COVID-19 by Palmon
[January 25, 2021, 05:09:57 pm]


Re: COVID-19 by Jana at Jade House
[January 25, 2021, 03:07:53 pm]


Re: COVID-19 by Palmon
[January 25, 2021, 11:49:22 am]

* Top Posters

Roper Roper
2091 Posts
Curelom
1668 Posts
dyany dyany
1243 Posts
Taalcon
788 Posts
N3uroTypical N3uroTypical
649 Posts

* Board Statistics

  • stats Total Members: 114
  • stats Total Posts: 15533
  • stats Total Topics: 1119
  • stats Total Categories: 8
  • stats Total Boards: 35
  • stats Most Online: 197

  • averages Average Posts: 10
  • averages Average Topics: 1
  • averages Average Members: 0
  • averages Average Online: 22

* Forum Staff

AndrewR_admin admin AndrewR_admin
Administrator
dyany admin dyany
Administrator
Roper admin Roper
Administrator
LMAshton admin LMAshton
Administrator
SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2021, SimplePortal