Welcome to New Nauvoo


Author Topic: Is Christianity liberal or conservative?  (Read 712 times)

Roper

  • Administrator
  • Thousand Year Egg Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 2016
  • Thanked: 2889 times
  • Country: us
  • Earning my spurs.
    • View Profile
Re: Is Christianity liberal or conservative?
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2020, 07:11:14 pm »
They just don't want the leftist to take over our government and destroy our nation (which seems pretty likely because they actively say they are going to be able to convince Biden to go there after the election.
Pnr, that also sounds pretty judgmental and unChristlike. Democrats are not the enemy. Democrats do not want to destroy America. That's conspiracy theory spread by the QAnon faithful.
All grown-ups were once children...but only few of them remember it. ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "The Little Prince."
 
The following users thanked this post: LMAshton, Jen

Patty Rain

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 336
  • Thanked: 294 times
  • Country: us
    • View Profile
Re: Is Christianity liberal or conservative?
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2020, 07:31:24 pm »
Once on a non religious related board someone asked me how some Mormons could be democrat and some be republican.  It just didn't make sense to them.

So I came up with some examples like: some republicans are against abortion because they believe an unborn baby is a child of God.  Some democrats believe in having abortion available because they believe we should have agency.  Then interestingly some democrats believe we should give more tax funded help to the needy.  Some republicans believe we should keep the government out of it and let people have agency in helping others.

I find that most political things can be supported by chrisitinaity on both sides.  It's just how you look at them.  So this demonizing of the other side, no matter which side, just means we are really not listening to each oteher. 

So many of this issues are based on agency.  Funny how both sides hold agency so strongly yet can't see the merit in the other side using it as well. 

So both sides can say there side is right, yet if they are not looking at the other with charity then it really isn't christlike at all. 
Time for a change.  I am yungmom, but have wanted a new username for some time.
 
The following users thanked this post: Roper, Sparky

Nottoc

  • MembersOnly
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 96
  • Thanked: 96 times
  • Country: us
    • View Profile
Re: Is Christianity liberal or conservative?
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2020, 01:29:16 am »
Quote
I find that most political things can be supported by christianity on both sides.  It's just how you look at them.  So this demonizing of the other side, no matter which side, just means we are really not listening to each other.
This sums up my thoughts on the matter.

However, I want to throw out something for discussion. If person supports a party because they more strongly support welfare programs, is that person abrogating personal responsibility, or perhaps maybe a portion of personal responsibility?

To provide a bit more detail. I think we can all agree that we are commanded to help and serve our fellow man. But, if a person supports the government increasing welfare, then that also means either taking money from some other government program (I won't be participating in a discussion of the relative merits of non-welfare government programs) or it means increasing taxes. If taxes are increased, then that person has fewer resources with which to help people. And we must admit that us directly helping someone is more efficient than relying on the government to do the same (the administrators of the welfare program are not doing it for free, therefore some money to those in need, and some to those controlling the money).

Seems to me that wanting the government to take over welfare is fundamentally a lack of trust. Trust that enough people will donate their time and money if they are not forced to by the government.
 
The following users thanked this post: Roper, Sparky

pnr

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 505
  • Thanked: 601 times
  • Country: us
    • View Profile
Re: Is Christianity liberal or conservative?
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2020, 10:40:55 am »
They just don't want the leftist to take over our government and destroy our nation (which seems pretty likely because they actively say they are going to be able to convince Biden to go there after the election.
Pnr, that also sounds pretty judgmental and unChristlike. Democrats are not the enemy. Democrats do not want to destroy America. That's conspiracy theory spread by the QAnon faithful.

I didn't say a single word about Democrats, now did I?
Nauvoo 1270, Feb 2005
 
The following users thanked this post: Roper

Jen

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 332
  • Thanked: 480 times
  • Country: us
    • View Profile
Re: Is Christianity liberal or conservative?
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2020, 11:11:29 am »
And I said "A lot of people", not "All Trump supporters".
 
The following users thanked this post: Roper

dyany

  • Administrator
  • Thousand Year Egg Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 1203
  • Thanked: 1625 times
  • Country: us
    • View Profile
    • My blog
Re: Is Christianity liberal or conservative?
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2020, 04:57:31 pm »
I don't even think a lot of Christians know why they support Trump, except they have way too much trust in the Republican party to uphold their values. It's a very lazy "all is well in Zion" kind of mentality.

That sounds pretty judgmental and unChristlike to me.   How do we get to say that if someone doesn't make the same calculations as us about discipleship they are less than us?   It isn't easy to support Trump, and I'd hazard a guess that most who will vote for Him don't actually like lots of what he says and does.   They just don't want the leftist to take over our government and destroy our nation (which seems pretty likely because they actively say they are going to be able to convince Biden to go there after the election.

I am blown away that you call a statement trying to figure out the why for a LOT (not even MOST and certainly not ALL) Christians are supporting Trump, and in the same breath accuse the left of "taking over our government and destroying our nation."

Dude. Just stop.
 
The following users thanked this post: Jen, Iggy, Roper

Jason

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 314
  • Thanked: 495 times
  • Country: us
    • View Profile
Re: Is Christianity liberal or conservative?
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2020, 05:04:27 pm »
What happens when there are valid arguments on both sides? We find a compromise on some things, try to balance out the negative effects of an overall good policy. But ultimately you have to make a decision on which of the valid arguments is more important. How to rank the importance of different arguments is where people of good conscious can disagree.
 
The following users thanked this post: Jen, Roper

Roper

  • Administrator
  • Thousand Year Egg Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 2016
  • Thanked: 2889 times
  • Country: us
  • Earning my spurs.
    • View Profile
Re: Is Christianity liberal or conservative?
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2020, 07:06:35 pm »
Seems to me that wanting the government to take over welfare is fundamentally a lack of trust. Trust that enough people will donate their time and money if they are not forced to by the government.
One could make that claim about many things: We don't trust people to adequately defend themselves, so the government has to take over. We don't trust people to prepare for advancing age/difficulty working, so the government has to provide social security. We don't trust people to build their own roads, bridges, etc., so the government has to take over. You get the picture.

I don't think these things have, as their motivation, a lack of trust. I think that these are things we understand to be legitimate functions of government.

We the people: We, together, establish our government. It is not given to us. it does not belong to somebody else. We are accountable to each other to maintain it.
...in order to form a more perfect union: We understand that government works to form a more perfect "union," not more perfect individuals.
...establish justice: We understand that government works to form a foundation of laws and enforcement which apply to all, not "survival of the fittest" in any position of power or influence.
...insure domestic tranquility: We understand that government works to establish peace and calm, not to oppress its people.
...provide for the common defense: We understand that government works to keep the people as a whole (not select individuals or portions of society) safe and secure.
...promote the general welfare: We understand that government works to promote the health, happiness, and fortunes of citizens in general, not of select individuals or corporations.
...secure the blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our posterity: We understand that government has a responsibility not only to us, but also to those who come after us.
...do ordain and establish this Constitution of the United States of America: We do this. All of the preceding principles are represented in our government.

Political parties tend to emphasize some of those things more than others. Sometimes, political parties completely ignore certain principles and yet claim that they are "patriotic" or "compassionate." Both major parties seem intent on dividing our citizenry. In that aspect, both are unconstitutional. The constitution clearly has the same goal in civil life as the Gospel of Jesus Christ has in spiritual life: UNITY.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2020, 07:15:22 pm by Roper »
All grown-ups were once children...but only few of them remember it. ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "The Little Prince."
 
The following users thanked this post: Scruffydog, Enochscion

Roper

  • Administrator
  • Thousand Year Egg Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 2016
  • Thanked: 2889 times
  • Country: us
  • Earning my spurs.
    • View Profile
Re: Is Christianity liberal or conservative?
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2020, 07:10:13 pm »
They just don't want the leftist to take over our government and destroy our nation (which seems pretty likely because they actively say they are going to be able to convince Biden to go there after the election.
Pnr, that also sounds pretty judgmental and unChristlike. Democrats are not the enemy. Democrats do not want to destroy America. That's conspiracy theory spread by the QAnon faithful.

I didn't say a single word about Democrats, now did I?
No. You said Biden, who is the Democratic party's candidate for President.
All grown-ups were once children...but only few of them remember it. ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "The Little Prince."
 

dyany

  • Administrator
  • Thousand Year Egg Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 1203
  • Thanked: 1625 times
  • Country: us
    • View Profile
    • My blog
Re: Is Christianity liberal or conservative?
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2020, 07:22:54 pm »
I'm moving this thread to the Politics board. Too many people actively avoid politics here, and as this has quickly (and predictably) turned into a partisan argument, over to politics it goes.
 
The following users thanked this post: LMAshton, Iggy, Roper, Sparky, Nottoc

Nottoc

  • MembersOnly
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 96
  • Thanked: 96 times
  • Country: us
    • View Profile
Re: Is Christianity liberal or conservative?
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2020, 12:50:51 am »
I will add one last post, since I don't participate in the typical political discussion. The typical political discussion goes like this, in my opinion. Position is stated. The response first states the other person is wrong and then explains why they're wrong. And it goes back and forth from there, each telling the other person they're wrong. That is not the style of political discussion I will participate in. On the other hand, if the discussion were of the nature, position A is stated on a topic. Position B is stated. Each is allowed to ask for clarification. However, at no time, does any participant state or imply the other person is wrong.

This after the style of the most brilliant missionary I ever heard teaching. This missionary would ask a question, and the first thing he said for every response, was you're exactly right. But, then would teach the correct principle, and never once did he ever tell or imply to the other person they were wrong. He would use their words when stating that portion of the principle they got correct. But he always expanded on their answer with the correct principle. It was a wonder and a joy to behold.

My purpose, in focusing on a particular principle was because, in my opinion, does Christianity align with a particular political philosophy is too broad. In my opinion certain principles will align with one philosophy while another will be more aligned with another. Which is why I said earlier that a members choice of political party is reflective of which principle of the gospel they think is most important.

I also think comparing welfare to roads, police, firemen, or the army is a case of comparing apples and oranges.
 
The following users thanked this post: dyany, Roper, Sparky

cook

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 561
  • Thanked: 594 times
  • Country: fi
    • View Profile
Re: Is Christianity liberal or conservative?
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2020, 08:49:29 am »
I've commented on similar discussions on places like friend's facebook pages and I am always suprised when people seem to think that in countries like mine where we pay high taxes we would not help others on top of that. Even when we don't get any tax deductions for charity and other donations as some of you do.

I do not know everybody. Thus I am glad that my money is used to help everybody, even those no one actually knows.

I am glad that my friend who has all sorts of trouble doesn't have to begging for things from people she knows. Knowing her adhd, she even couldn't manage to do that on time. So I am glad she is looked after. And I am glad that I can still help her at times, also with money. Taxes don't mean we don't give also out of free will. It means everyone can be taken care of regardless of their capabilities for asking for help.

It is a bit funny at times that I from a wicked country according to some give money to US citizens in gofundme things so that they can cover the medical help or pay for the funeral or what ever.

Like, I'm sure it could be dealt better than socialists from other countries paying... 😁
 
The following users thanked this post: dyany, Roper, Sparky, Taalcon

Roper

  • Administrator
  • Thousand Year Egg Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 2016
  • Thanked: 2889 times
  • Country: us
  • Earning my spurs.
    • View Profile
Re: Is Christianity liberal or conservative?
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2020, 08:50:42 am »
The typical political discussion goes like this, in my opinion. Position is stated. The response first states the other person is wrong and then explains why they're wrong. And it goes back and forth from there, each telling the other person they're wrong. That is not the style of political discussion I will participate in. On the other hand, if the discussion were of the nature, position A is stated on a topic. Position B is stated. Each is allowed to ask for clarification. However, at no time, does any participant state or imply the other person is wrong.

Agreed Nottoc. If my goal was to convince or to persuade, I wouldn't participate here. I participate because writing and responding helps me to organize and clarify my thoughts, and because I trust the members of the community here. I trust them to state different positions and ask for clarification. I trust them to disagree without turning it into a personal attack. Only once, from a new member who visited briefly, was I the target of a personal attack. Only that one time have I been ridiculed for my position on a certain issue.  I've participated on other social media, and the process is exactly as you describe--when I don't agree, or when I have a different position, people start name calling and ridiculing. Lots of people here in Nauvoo disagree, but at least they're grownups about it. Disagreement does not equal rejection. Disagreement does not equal a lack of understanding. Disagreement simply means someone understands the issue in a different way.
All grown-ups were once children...but only few of them remember it. ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "The Little Prince."
 
The following users thanked this post: dyany, Sparky, Taalcon

Nottoc

  • MembersOnly
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 96
  • Thanked: 96 times
  • Country: us
    • View Profile
Re: Is Christianity liberal or conservative?
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2020, 11:53:07 pm »
I've changed my mind for now. I'll expand on my apples and oranges comment. I with my own resources can provide food, shelter, and clothing to a person in need. I cannot build a road, enforce the laws, put out a fire, or defend the country.

Also, I'm not saying a government that provides welfare support is bad or evil. I am simply saying that we are commanded to help support whenever we see a need and have the resources to do so. If a portion of our resources are being taken to supply someone's welfare needs, then that means we have fewer resources to help. Additionally, it seems to me that some people will say to themselves, I am taxed, therefore the welfare needs are being taken care, I don't need to be generous.

I think it's an interesting mindset that people are glad to be able to go to the government for help instead of friends and family. Is this to preserve a sense of pride? Fairly certain that this type of pride is frowned upon by God. Personally, I think it's sad that any person thought less of another person because their acquaintance had unfortunate circumstances happen to them.
 
The following users thanked this post: Roper

JLM

  • MembersOnly
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 529
  • Thanked: 609 times
  • Country: us
  • Hoggity Poggity Wiggity Wack
    • View Profile
Re: Is Christianity liberal or conservative?
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2020, 12:00:34 am »
Quote
   I think it's an interesting mindset that people are glad to be able to go to the government for help instead of friends and family.  Is this to preserve a sense of pride?   

No, it's because the friends and families of most poor people are also poor.
 
The following users thanked this post: LMAshton, cook, dyany, Roper, Taalcon

 


* Calendar

October 2020
Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat
1 2 3
4 5 6 7 8 9 10
11 12 13 14 15 16 17
18 19 20 21 [22] 23 24
25 26 27 28 29 30 31

No calendar events were found.

* Recent Posts

Re: Trump "fact" sheet ? by JLM
[Today at 12:38:24 am]


Re: Sad news here. by Palmon
[October 21, 2020, 11:55:29 pm]


Re: returning to meetings in the chapel. by Palmon
[October 21, 2020, 11:51:40 pm]


Re: returning to meetings in the chapel. by Palmon
[October 21, 2020, 11:06:49 pm]


Re: Trump "fact" sheet ? by Roper
[October 21, 2020, 09:57:03 pm]


Re: returning to meetings in the chapel. by pnr
[October 21, 2020, 07:50:10 pm]


Re: Trump "fact" sheet ? by pnr
[October 21, 2020, 07:39:13 pm]


Re: Which Republicans do you support? by Sparky
[October 21, 2020, 04:38:37 pm]


Re: Americana by Jana at Jade House
[October 21, 2020, 03:38:09 pm]


Re: Which Republicans do you support? by Taalcon
[October 21, 2020, 03:08:53 pm]


Re: Americana by dyany
[October 21, 2020, 02:44:18 pm]


Re: Which Republicans do you support? by Curelom
[October 21, 2020, 01:42:15 pm]


Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition by Curelom
[October 21, 2020, 01:33:03 pm]


Re: Americana by Curelom
[October 21, 2020, 01:08:33 pm]


Re: Trump "fact" sheet ? by cook
[October 21, 2020, 01:06:14 pm]

* Top Posters

Roper Roper
2016 Posts
Curelom
1562 Posts
dyany dyany
1203 Posts
Taalcon
763 Posts
N3uroTypical N3uroTypical
648 Posts

* Board Statistics

  • stats Total Members: 114
  • stats Total Posts: 14999
  • stats Total Topics: 1078
  • stats Total Categories: 8
  • stats Total Boards: 35
  • stats Most Online: 197

  • averages Average Posts: 10
  • averages Average Topics: 1
  • averages Average Members: 0
  • averages Average Online: 22

* Forum Staff

AndrewR_admin admin AndrewR_admin
Administrator
dyany admin dyany
Administrator
Roper admin Roper
Administrator
LMAshton admin LMAshton
Administrator
SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2020, SimplePortal