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Author Topic: Brigham Young statue Vandalized  (Read 662 times)

Taalcon

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Re: Brigham Young statue Vandalized
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2020, 11:01:31 am »
Your right in that the way the woman in your example had a nonsensical definition, that I'm pretty sure is not widely upheld or recognized almost anywhere. It's wrong. By her definition, it's not what you believe, it's what you are. She makes herself exempt. It's just as bad as those who say, "Racism is bad, I'm not bad, therefore I can't be a racist, and if I'm not a racist, nothing I say is racist."

But considering someone's use of a label unhelpful doesn't mean what most are using to describe as therefore invalid.

I propose that just as it is now not considered helpful to call us Mormon, but Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we can say that Brigham Young was not Racist, but was Someone Who Believed and Perpetuated Ideas That Suggests One Racial Group Is Inferior or Superior to Another Racial Group In Any Way?

Or we can just agree that here, we are using the term racist as shorthand to mean, "Someone Who Believes and Perpetuates Ideas That Suggests One Racial Group Is Inferior or Superior to Another Racial Group In Any Way", and not, "A White Person".
« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 11:20:26 am by Taalcon »
 
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Roper

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Re: Brigham Young statue Vandalized
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2020, 11:02:19 am »
I listened to a black lady on the radio a few weeks ago tell all white people that we are racist - simply because we are white, and our white privilege makes racist. We can't get away from it, because it is just there.
That is a racist statement. When you eliminate an individual's choice and accountability by affixing a label and assigning that person to a group based on a non-chosen attribute--that's a problem. Saying, "All white people are racist," is the same as saying, "all black people are primitive."
All grown-ups were once children...but only few of them remember it. ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "The Little Prince."
 
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pnr

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Re: Brigham Young statue Vandalized
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2020, 12:09:37 pm »
I didn't agree with that person's definitive determination that BY was racist any more than I agreed with yours.  Yes he did and said things that suggest he might be.  But today we use the term in pejorative ways suggesting intentional ugliness.  I don't see how anyone can be pejoratively defined that way in implementing God's instructions about who gets His authority (though I absolutely understand that it may not have been that, with BY just believing for some reason it was).  Seems to me that naming BY a racist for the way he threaded the legislative needle to limit slavery to adult slaves and essentially freeing all the children from that label, in a way that allowed those in Congress who would otherwise oppose statehood to support it wasn't about demeaning any group of people at all but about pragmatism to prove all the saints with protection from federal government power grab.

And why does someone who recommends other's points of view have to agree with/interpret everything in it the same as the way that person thinks about it?  Or the same way you do?
Nauvoo 1270, Feb 2005
 
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JLM

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Re: Brigham Young statue Vandalized
« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2020, 12:17:10 pm »
Racism is a spectrum of beliefs and behaviors.  From one perspective, I think it is reasonable to say that everyone is at least a little bit racist in our thoughts. Repentance comes in recognizing this in ourselves and then consciously working to overcome our unrighteous biases and righting the wrongs of the past.
 
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Taalcon

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Re: Brigham Young statue Vandalized
« Reply #34 on: June 29, 2020, 12:29:11 pm »
Quote
But today we use the term in pejorative ways suggesting intentional ugliness. 
Some do, that's true.
Others try to use a definition that's a bit more precice than "A bad person who wants to do bad things and be mean, and race is involved."

Again, that's why I think Kendi's book (of which you also recommended one) is good, because its key focus is in identifying ideas and their effects, rather than labelling someone as a Bad Person.

You can be good intentioned in holding racist ideas, but that does not make the ideas any less racist. Because you see the term as having a strict value judgement on the morality of the person, you seem unwilling to use it. I get that. But being able to decouple it  makes it more useful, and helpful.

You can also be anti-racist in some policies and ideas ("Free slaves, they do not deserve to be in servitude, and I will fight for that"), but racist in others ("They are not capable of existing in our society as equals, so once freed, they should leave the county, or at the very least be separated from the rest of civilized society in some other way.")

Brigham Young did things and said things that promoted the idea that one racial group was inherently inferior or superior.

I don't know what term you would use for that category that is any more clear than he promoted 'racist ideas'.  While someone might say he said and did those things, but didn't necessarily believe them, sure, we can never know for sure 'what's in a man's heart', although it seems more affirming of his morality to consider that he said what he believed.

Again, saying someone is a racist doesn't place a label on one's heart and motivations. It acknowledges the actions that are said and done that promote acts which embody racism.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 12:56:23 pm by Taalcon »
 
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