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Author Topic: Priesthood ordinances done remotely  (Read 788 times)

Roper

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Priesthood ordinances done remotely
« on: March 28, 2020, 09:50:09 am »
I understand that our current policy is that Priesthood ordinances must be done in person. There is an interesting discussion on "By Common Consent" about liturgical adaptation. With more locations restricting person-to-person contact, and with some places going into lockdown and martial law, I wonder if authorization for remotely blessing the sacrament is on the horizon...

https://bycommonconsent.com/2020/03/12/blessing-the-sacrament-remotely-contagion-technology-and-liturgical-adaptation/
All grown-ups were once children...but only few of them remember it. ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "The Little Prince."
 

Taalcon

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Re: Priesthood ordinances done remotely
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2020, 10:40:37 am »
It seems it would make far more less of a doctrinal adjustment to activate the already existing declaration that endowed women are "prepared to officiate in the ordinances of the [Aaronic / Melchizedek ] Priesthood"  and grant authorization (like a Temple president does with women Temple Ordinance Workers) than to declare that one need not be physically present for an ordinance to take place. A whole foundation of Temple work (and one might argue the nature of Mormonism) is the physicality of it, so much so that a physical proxy is needed for those who could not receive their ordinances in person. It seems the concreteness of the physicality of being present in ordinances is sort of part of the point.

Would I object to it? No. I wouldn't. It just seems that *waves around broadly* there's already a doctrinally compatible solution that's there's already prescedent for.

We have so many members of the Church who have been declared with authority to be "prepared to officiate in the ordinances of the Priesthood". Would seem to be a FANTASTIC time for the Presiding High Priest to let that preparation be put into practice.
 
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Roper

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Re: Priesthood ordinances done remotely
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2020, 12:32:00 pm »
Good point, Taalcon. I hadn't thought of it that way.

I wonder what the solution would be for families who still wouldn't have someone to bless the sacrament.
All grown-ups were once children...but only few of them remember it. ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "The Little Prince."
 
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Jen

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Re: Priesthood ordinances done remotely
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2020, 06:28:09 pm »
There's a chance my husband has covid-19. I've been watching him sick for over a week and wondering what happens if he gets really, really sick. I can't ask anyone to come give him a blessing.
 
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AndrewR

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Re: Priesthood ordinances done remotely
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2020, 06:37:50 pm »
I think the nature of the Sacrament requires the "breaking" of the bread as part of the administration of the Sacrament. So, remote blessing is moot.

I understand Taalcon's idea, but "being prepared" and actually able are two different things.

What those words mean is debatable in a presentation the is symbolic.

Jen, I am certain that a prayer offered sincerely, calling on the powers of heaven, will be every bit as efficacious as a priesthood blessing. Especially when added to the prayers of Nauvoodles.

Don't ask me, I only live here.
Nauvoodle since March 2005 #1412
 
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CrowGirl

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Re: Priesthood ordinances done remotely
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2020, 07:23:26 pm »
I add mine.
Jump off the cliff and build your wings on the way down.
-Ray Bradbury
 
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Palmon

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Re: Priesthood ordinances done remotely
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2020, 07:48:29 pm »
Jen, have you contacted your doctor to see if he can be tested?

Do you remember the story of Amanda Barnes Smith?  Her prayers led to her being inspired on how to treat her sons wounds and his healing.  Her faith and her calling on the powers of heaven.  We all have the power to do that.

You and your husband are in my prayers.
 
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Jason

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Re: Priesthood ordinances done remotely
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2020, 08:58:33 pm »
I did not see this scriptural reference in the other posts or here. But if Jesus was happy to perform an ordinance at a distance, then there is precedence to this. 

Matthew 8
Quote
5  And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the bpalsy, grievously tormented.
7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2020, 09:12:49 pm by Jason »
 
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Jen

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Re: Priesthood ordinances done remotely
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2020, 09:42:34 pm »
Jen, have you contacted your doctor to see if he can be tested?

Do you remember the story of Amanda Barnes Smith?  Her prayers led to her being inspired on how to treat her sons wounds and his healing.  Her faith and her calling on the powers of heaven.  We all have the power to do that.

You and your husband are in my prayers.


We haven’t because everything we’ve heard from people we know is that they won’t test you unless you’re a healthcare worker, you’ve definitely been exposed and have symptoms, or you’re in respiratory distress. Hardy anyone here is getting tested.


You’re all wonderful and I thank you. His coughing isn’t nearly as bad today. He seems better but I’ve read too many accounts of people rallying and then getting horrifically sick, so I’m not relaxing quite yet. Also I have a low grade fever and sore throat... and five children and anxiety. I can’t imagine how this is for people that have a family member who is critically ill. I pray for us all.
 
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dyany

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Re: Priesthood ordinances done remotely
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2020, 01:16:19 am »
Jen, at times like this I think relying on hearsay is a bad idea. Here is a local hotline to get checked: https://www.stlukesonline.org/blogs/st-lukes/notes-and-announcements/2020/mar/st-lukes-covid-19-coronavirus-announcement

It doesn't jump right to testing, but it's provided if necessary. The government is paying for all Covid-19 testing so you don't need to worry about cost, either.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2020, 03:27:20 pm by dyany »
 
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Taalcon

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Re: Priesthood ordinances done remotely
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2020, 09:59:23 am »
I did not see this scriptural reference in the other posts or here. But if Jesus was happy to perform an ordinance at a distance, then there is precedence to this. 

Matthew 8
Quote
5  And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the bpalsy, grievously tormented.
7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

I think sometimes we conflate a declaration and act of God with an ordinance. The two are not the same. The former does not have a boundry or rules. The latter does. An ordinance is a physical act that represents God's presence. The one performing an ordinance, in essence, stands in for the physical presence of the Savior. He is present with you in the presentation of the act. Part of the power of an ordinance is the physical nature of it. It is a physical reminder that God is there,working in your life. It is a sign, a present token of the invisible work.

Every act of God or the Savior is not an ordinance. The ordinance is the acts we do in remembrance and as a physical representative of what God and the Savior have done.

You can look back in time, and remember a physical moment you went under the water to remember the ongoing promise of Eternal Life, and expression of forgiveness. You can remember a moment in time when someone anointed oil, and laid on their hands to remind you that God was working in you. There's a moment you can look to to recall when you joined and bound and promised to be united into the divine family. And there's something about having a physical emblem of the Savior's Body being presented, divided, and then taken into your body for nourishment. Ordinances are the visualizing and making concrete of the spiritual into our physical world.

I of course believe God's power can work without the medium of ordinances. Ordinances are not God's power, but they are physical acts by which "the power of godliness is manifest", turned into something we experience with our physical senses. To call something an ordinance without the physically-present nature of it seems to miss a big point of the comforting and sustaining purpose as to why they appear to have been given.

One can renew their own vows before God anytime they want by solemnly declaring it to God personally. But the comfort and power that comes from a physically-present act by someone you have a conviction has been authorized to be a voice or representative of God has, in my experience, some additive power. (It's part of why President Oaks has said recently, and I agree, that the ordinance of Blessings of Comfort and Blessings of the Sick is less about the unique words spoken during the presentation, than the physical act itself representing the hand of the Lord being present on the person.)
« Last Edit: March 29, 2020, 10:02:07 am by Taalcon »
 
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AndrewR

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Re: Priesthood ordinances done remotely
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2020, 10:32:54 am »
Quote
The ordinance is the acts we do in remembrance and as a physical representative of what God and the Savior have done.

I would go slightly further in saying it is, or can be, a physical way of calling on the Power of God for an act.

So if a priesthood administration of the sick results in a miracle it is not the person(s) giving the blessing that heal them, or indeed the ordinance. It is that same power by which Christ healed - the Power of God. These are always done at a distance in our day, since Christ is not hear He has left His priesthood as a means of calling on that Power.

Don't ask me, I only live here.
Nauvoodle since March 2005 #1412
 
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Roper

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Re: Priesthood ordinances done remotely
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2020, 11:15:24 am »
But the comfort and power that comes from a physically-present act by someone you have a conviction has been authorized to be a voice or representative of God has, in my experience, some additive power. (It's part of why President Oaks has said recently, and I agree, that the ordinance of Blessings of Comfort and Blessings of the Sick is less about the unique words spoken during the presentation, than the physical act itself representing the hand of the Lord being present on the person.)
I agree. I also think that it can be flexible. The washing and anointing ordinance has changed significantly since I first received it. I miss the physical connection that went with each verbal phrase. It's mostly symbolic, now. We have historical records of priesthood blessings being given by letter. The person giving the blessing was separated by time and space from the person receiving the blessing. In our current crisis, where members who want the sacrament are unable to receive it, I think there is precedent and flexibility with our ordinances to make that possible.
All grown-ups were once children...but only few of them remember it. ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "The Little Prince."
 
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nitasmile

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Re: Priesthood ordinances done remotely
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2020, 11:26:36 am »
I have also hoped for something similar like where we could be given a piece of safe wrapped bread or small water bottle then use on our own scripture reading if the verses and play a sacrament hymn each week. Or if remote our own. I like the remote idea..where we could break our own bread while the Priesthood holder says a virtual prayer.
We were told if this goes beyond mid April they would look at other options.
.as a single sis, we do not get to partake of the sacrament during this time of crazy uncertainty..I try, believe me, to be positive and hopeful but this is another thing that the virus has taken from us.
 
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Jana at Jade House

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Re: Priesthood ordinances done remotely
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2020, 02:14:00 pm »
I swear I read a post somrewhere that the family laaid out bread and water and a PH holder on skype pronounced the blessing and supervised the process.
I wonder where I read this.  Also i read priesthood delivers bread andvwater to front door steps back and the family serves themstlves.  I wonder where that is.  I am so glad that 2vstakes around here are broadcasting on sunday .  One doesv2 services of 30 minutes one english one dutch.  Its so nice to hear another persons voice.  I am planning to stay on my property til june.  Seeing another face is really nice.
 

 


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