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Messages - LMAshton

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Creative Corner / Re: Learning to Draw
« on: Today at 06:37:36 am »

a potoo for you

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Introductions / Re: hlo
« on: Today at 06:13:32 am »
Hi friends thank you so much. I have actually been trying my hand at photography so I will definitely look into that thread roper. Glad to be here :)
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Introductions / Re: hlo
« on: January 15, 2018, 07:26:00 pm »
Welcome!  We have a creative corner as well as writing sections.  If you feel so inclined, share some of your art and photography.
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Writers' Welcome / Re: I'm not a writer, but I would like to be.
« on: January 14, 2018, 12:20:14 am »
I'd recommend for anyone needing some help with the technical aspects of putting a novel together to check out Book In A Month by Victoria Schmidt even if you don't plan on writing a book in a month. It's super helpful with organization.

Personally I think writing is just a matter of putting butt to chair and fingers to keyboard. It takes practice but you can do it :)
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Introductions / hlo
« on: January 13, 2018, 11:36:46 pm »
Hi everyone,

Popping in to say hello. I am not a completely new member to Nauvoo I frequented the old forums off and on, but I'm trying for a fresh start over here. I muddle around in art, writing and more recently photography as well. I'm in the midst of switching jobs, alas I will no longer be a assistant librarian but instead if all goes well a Headstart assistant teacher. I guess I am on the inactive side of things so far as Church membership goes. Anyways hello all  8)
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General Discussion / Re: Scenario Input
« on: January 12, 2018, 09:14:43 pm »
13 years old she cannot LEGALLY give consent.  But she is capable of making choices, consciously.  That is why we have the age of accountability in our church as 8, not 18. 

What I don't think people realize is that labeling a 13 year old girl as not responsible for her own choices is as objectifying and damaging as seeing her as a possession (which this sort of is, she is becoming a possession to be protected) or a sex object. 
And to place any kind of responsibility on her exonerates those boys from preying on her.

So how exactly is she accountable for being sexually victimized? Is she morally accountable? Is she spiritually accountable? Is she socially or emotionally accountable?

Dyany, I just can't agree with your position on this.  There is no way on God's green earth that I could ever even think of placing accountability or responsibility or whatever you want to call it on this child.  No matter what she did or didn't do, no matter what she said or didn't say, she was not responsible for being raped. 
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General Discussion / Re: Scenario Input
« on: January 12, 2018, 07:17:10 pm »
I tend to be with roper on this issue.  While it is true that the girl might have done things wrong, she is absolutely, fully, not responsible for the boy's behavior or the rape.  And it is rape, because she cannot consent by virtue of age, and by virtue of emotional health.  And it wouldn't matter if she though she was in love with them and asked them to have sex, either.

What I meant is that when I was raped, I still felt I was responsible because I got drunk ---- not for the rape, but for putting myself in a vulnerable place.   I got annoyed when people said I was not to blame, because I knew that while I was not responsible for what the guy did, it wouldn' t have happened but for my action.   But I was an adult, not a 13 year old.   You never have to repent of being raped.  Ever.
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General Discussion / Re: Scenario Input
« on: January 12, 2018, 04:37:36 pm »
13 years old she cannot LEGALLY give consent.  But she is capable of making choices, consciously.  That is why we have the age of accountability in our church as 8, not 18. 

What I don't think people realize is that labeling a 13 year old girl as not responsible for her own choices is as objectifying and damaging as seeing her as a possession (which this sort of is, she is becoming a possession to be protected) or a sex object.  Is she FULLY capable of responsible, well-reasoned choices?  No.  But I know TONS of adults, most of whom are their own guardians (and thus legally responsible for themselves), who are also not fully capable of responsible, well-reasoned choices.
With power comes responsibility.  But the flip side is also true: with responsibility comes power.  Only when we are held responsible (at a reasonable level) for our own choices and actions, do we start to gain the strength and power necessary to grow and learn and be responsible adults. 
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General Discussion / Re: Scenario Input
« on: January 12, 2018, 01:11:53 pm »

And people keep assuming that the girl was a pure victim here, when Curlybat said nothing of the sort.  He said it happened, with no information on whether it was considered consensual by the girl or not.  While this is TECHNICALLY still a crime, I feel it is not only unfair to the boys to extrapolate from that that she could be nothing but a victim, but it dismisses HER and may brush the real issues (which it is entirely possible center around HER) under the rug and delay or avoid getting her help that she needs.

And thank you, pnr, for being an experienced voice in the matter.

PNR is not the only voice of experience.  I have been protecting children from sexual predators for 11 years.  I can't over-state this point:  The girl is 13 years old.  She CANNOT give consent.  She is 100% the victim.  IT IS NOT HER FAULT!!! Two teenage boys are sexually preying on her.  Curtis absolutely did the right thing to protect his daughter.  The idea that she is somehow culpable is not only wrong, it makes me sick.

Yes, she'll get the help she needs. Because Curtis is that kind of father.  But that healing will begin when she, and everyone who loves her, understands that this was in no way, shape, or form her fault. Not even a little bit.  Not even .000000000000000000000001%.

As for those teenage boys who "made a mistake" and things might turn out "unfair" for them:  That's for the justice system to decide.  Not us.
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General Discussion / Re: Scenario Input
« on: January 12, 2018, 12:58:30 pm »
Bishops are ecclesiastical leaders and as such have privilege, which means they cannot be forced to testify (including give a deposition). 
Maybe not testify, but they are required by law to report child abuse. There was a case a couple of years ago where a Mormon bishop went to trial and was convicted because he failed to report sexual abuse of a minor.
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General Discussion / Re: Scenario Input
« on: January 12, 2018, 11:44:01 am »
If this didn't appear to be just a tally mark on sexual conquest chart we would be going a different route.  This isn't an small indescretion made in a moment that want too far but a planned act.  These guys are predators.
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General Discussion / Re: Scenario Input
« on: January 12, 2018, 11:14:38 am »
First, thanks all for your input.  Second, I will likely delete this thread at some point soon because yes, this our daughter we adopted at 8. 

As you can imagine, being taken from your parents for neglect and adopted after 3 years in foster care comes with issues.  Her self esteem is poor and she does the wrong things to be accepted by the wrong peers. 

Much of what has been suggested we do for her is well under way.  After some research and the comments here we decided this needed to go through the authorities.  Roper, your last post explains well why we went this route.

The boys, through their methodology, show some experience at what they have done.  While we briefly thought about approaching the parents first to give their parents the opportunity to get things right with their boys, the probability they had done this before and are likely to do it again weighed heavy on our decision.  Also, as Roper mentioned, we envisioned denials and misrepresentation of our efforts.  One family appears to be involved in the community and active LDS.  Both boys are in athletics.  We may face public backlash from the situation.  So, we thought best to have law enforcement involved.

In Utah this is a Class A misdemeanor (if they are both 16 - if one is 17, it is a third degree felony).  Our daughter doesn't want to get them trouble but she nor apparently the boys understand the severity if what they have done.
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General Discussion / Re: Scenario Input
« on: January 12, 2018, 11:08:37 am »
Having been involved with the juvenile criminal justice system for much more than I would prefer (and  having started out with Roper's position), I can tell you that while it may be the option that is appropriate, it is an option that has great capacity to interfere with permanent change for those boys.    (Experts tell kids in your daughter's position that testifying can help them feel like they've taken back their power, but the decision to do that publically is your daughters entirely, and there aren't a whole lot of 13 year olds I know willing/able to do it, and to wait for all the time until the trial, either.)

The reason you tell the bishop of the boys is that you daughter  will struggle with the church and may be unable to feel the love of her Savior if those boys are allowed to continue performing their priesthood duties.   Boys brag and it is quite possible that other teens in their orbit know all about it.   They too will be affected if they are allowed to continue in quorum leadership or get awarded Eagle or bless the Sacrament.  (I am in no way suggesting that your daughter needs to see the  bishop or that you should allow the bishop to interview her about what happened ---- if at some point she wants to speak to the bishop on her own (and she might if she feels like she erred herself), parents should talk with the bishop before hand to assure that he won't in any way imply or say that she needs to repent for what they did to her, or that she is unclean etc.)

It is true that some parents will refuse to speak with you and/or deny it and/or may whip their child once they are told.   But if that is the first reaction, I'd try a second time after they'd had a chance to process it to find out if they are going to provide and insist on counseling for their child, if they are going to keep their kids away from your daughter, if they are going to pay for your daughter's counseling (and whatever else she needs) and require their boys to earn the money to pay the parents back, if they are going to levy sufficient consequences that those boys will not do it again.  (One of the advantages of reporting it to the police is that they will run backgrounds to determine whether this is a one time thing or a pattern.)


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General Discussion / Re: Scenario Input
« on: January 12, 2018, 10:32:36 am »
Don't talk to the boys' parents.  It will only make things worse.  They will deny it.  Even if they acknowledge it, what can they do?  Anyone who has raised teenage boys know that they will either become defiant or more sneaky about it. If you threaten to report it to the police, the parents are going to feel threatened and lash back at your daughter.

Don't talk to their bishop. What will that accomplish?  It just makes it more difficult when you go to court because attorneys from both sides will ask who you talked to, and they will have to take depositions from whomever you told.

This is a CRIME and your daughter is the VICTIM.

You're not the judge.  You have zero responsibility for the perpetrator's consequences.

You're not the police.  You have zero responsibility for enforcing the law on other people, such as the boys' parents or church leaders.

Your daughter is too young to give consent.  She has been sexually victimized by older teenage boys.  Counseling and healing for her will come later.  Make the abuse stop, NOW, by reporting it, and by demanding immediate legal action to keep the boys away from your daughter.
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General Discussion / Re: Scenario Input
« on: January 11, 2018, 06:47:43 pm »
1)  I'd suspect earlier child abuse.
2) I'd give her the part b pill.
3)  I'd report it to the child protection abuse hotline giving the names and addresses of the boys, and get therapeutic help for my daughter.   I would consider agreeing to have her interviewed by the Child Protection Team so you can get their expert opinion about what she may need going forward.
4)  I'd take my daughter to the hospital to do a rape kit  and check for STD's (and if I hadn't before, I'd get her the two HPV shots for vaccination.
5)  I'd report the incident to the parents of the boys, and inform them that I might also be reporting the incident to the police depending on what they chose to do going forward (if they do not immediately get into therapy and apologize, then I'd go to the police because even though it is possible that they are also impaired, they need help and if they don't recognize it they could do it to someone else. 
6)  If they were church members, I would also inform your bishop and their bishop immediately in writing (if your daughter was willing to write out what happened, with her signature, I'd send the bishops that.)   And if their bishop did nothing, I'd send a copy of the letter to their stake presidents, and then to the area authority and the First Presidency, so that the kids get the help they need.
7)   Generally speaking I do not think that using the criminal system for kids helps anyone, and it can sometimes cause a lot of additional harm.   But it may be the only way for them to get help.
8)  I would not talk about this with anyone except people who had a professional obligation to keep what you  say private:  others family or friends don't need to know and the potential to get further than  your daughter wants it to is great.  It is her story, not yours to share.   If your daughter wants to share it (after you have told her that it is best to do in therapy with a professional and in settings that guarantee her privacy and in court if she needs to) that should be left up to her with no repercussions.  (Her therapist will likely recommend she attend a group with other teens dealing with the same issue.
9)  I would also prepare myself for the possibility that your daughter had previously been sexually abused:  underaged sex often stems from feeling worthless or unloved, which comes from other unresolved issues.  I'd also want her to go for a substance abuse assessment, because that is also often comorbid.
10)  Recognize that she may not want to never see the guys again, but if she doesn't you should be able to get a restraining order against them that should persuade the boys not to contact, be around her.  (If you report it as a crime, your state may have a law requiring the boys switch schools and buses.)

11)  Take care of yourself: this is a hard thing and you and your spouse may need therapy of your own to deal with it.
12)  Stay close to the spirit so you can hear promptings:  we often had to change what we thought was best because God told us to do something else.
13)  PM me if I can be of anymore help.
14)  Get your daughter the four year birth control implant if she is willing. 
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