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Messages - dyany

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General Discussion / Re: Scenario Input
« on: January 16, 2018, 11:40:55 pm »
Roper, I believe we are at an impasse when it comes to how we define this.
You say that a 13 year old is incapable of making her own choices (perhaps because the law says so when it comes to sex), so is 100% incapable of being any bit accountable.

If she had merely been vulnerable/a temptation (the clothing choice or drinking choices you used as examples) and was assaulted, I would 100% agree. 

However, she wasn't.  She wasn't just vulnerable or a temptation, she made choices.  I believe if she were a psychologically healthy adult, then as such she would be up to 50% accountable for the situation, depending on the level of manipulation used by the boys.  As it is, with her pre-adoption background and her age, I put her at much less accountable, but still somewhat responsible for her conscious, sober choice.  To say otherwise is to eliminate her agency and power in her life, make it harder for her to heal, and make a mockery of God setting the age of accountability at 8.  I don't believe it is a black/white all/nothing thing, but I feel that she has SOME accountability for her CONSCIOUS CHOICES. 

Is it possible I'm off base?  Of course.  I didn't experience sexual abuse or assault in my life, but I did experience a different type of neglect/abuse for which this is a trigger.  My first brush with suicide happened when I was a teen, after negative consequences of a car accident I had caused were taken away.  It told me that what I did, good or bad, was irrelevant, that I had no power or influence.  I NEEDED some natural, negative consequences.  Would a fatality or serious injury or having to pay all the car repair expenses out of my own pocket, at 16, have been too much?  Heck yes.  It was an accident, and I was a young, inexperienced driver.  But acting like I had done nothing wrong brought me closer to suicide than I had ever before been and wasn't again for many years.  It would be decades and years of therapy before I realized what the problem was that day, and before I was able to deal with hard things in my life, as my parents always tried to spare me from consequences.  And that wasn't even with CONSCIOUS choices to mess up. 

The boys in curlybat's scenario were not good.  They had evil designs, they saw an easy mark and they took it.  But to completely negate her choice in the matter is to take away her power.  And that's not good either.

Introductions / Re: hlo
« on: January 14, 2018, 12:25:33 am »
Hello, lil potoo!  What was your name over in old Nauvoo? 

General Discussion / Re: Scenario Input
« on: January 13, 2018, 03:18:46 pm »
I know what the law is.  I KNOW this is statutory rape, I've known it the entire time.  The LEGAL definition, as I've stated MANY times, is not what I'm trying to figure out or 'need to be educated in.' 

I've seen a lot of stupid kids in my day, girls as well as boys.  I refuse to believe that boys are the villains when they are stupid, and girls are the victims.  These are ALL teens involved.  The boys are only 3-4 years older than she was, and though that allows for greater cognitive and moral development, it is not remotely enough to make the good/evil decision clear cut.  Laws, especially ones that define ages, are often arbitrary or traditional.  I do not adhere to them like an iron vise when it comes to ethical and psychological culpability, though I will support the law as needed. 

We don't have ANY evidence that this was not consensual, and as such, since this was NOT fully culpable adults, I cannot see cause to claim or assume (aside from letter of the law) that this was more than a teenage mistake.  There is no evidence for it here.  None.  Abuse is terrible, but abuse is different than what I see from the evidence that has been presented.  Misuse?  Probably.  Abuse, no.  I am more than willing to amend my evaluation of the situation if more evidence came forth supporting attack or grooming or even duress.  But there has been none. 

I know for a fact that 13 year olds are capable of making decisions.  It is not an all or nothing thing where suddenly at 18 (or at 8, for that matter), we blink from not at all responsible to fully responsible.  It is a continuum, and as such, she is capable of making decisions that can be huge mistakes and have terrible consequences, but they are still HER decisions.  We protect and guide and teach and love kids at this age to help them as their brain and spirit develop to better be able to understand and avoid such pitfalls.  And we protect them somewhat from consequences of mistakes, as we can, because the size of the mistakes they are capable of making are far bigger than their developmental stage is fully capable of avoiding.  But we increasingly hold them accountable for their choices.  Because that is how we learn.  And I believe that is why God set the age of accountability at 8, not 16 or 18 or 21.  Not as a switch between 'no accountability' and 'full accountability.'  But as the start of a journey of increasing accountability, to help us learn, in a more protected environment, the consequences of our actions and our responsibility for them.

If there was evidence that her choice was taken away, at all, I would be all over full prosecution like white on rice.  And I'm not just talking physical force, but including verbal abuse/bullying or psychological duress, and if the boys were older (like, 20s or more), I would distrust their motivations, believe them more capable of manipulation and grooming, and hold them FAR more responsible.  But I don't base whether or not she had a choice on an arbitrary legal age limit when it comes to boys only a couple of years older than she is without more evidence against the boys.

General Discussion / Re: Scenario Input
« on: January 13, 2018, 11:15:26 am »
I feel like I'm missing something.  So, sincerely, I'm asking, especially pnr, Roper, and Sparky, a very specific question.

It seems to me that the 3 of you believe that she was raped, not just because of the technical age of consent, but that she had sex forced upon her by two large, athletic boys, possibly at the same time.  And I keep reading and re-reading curlybat's posts, every one of them, trying to find ANY evidence for this.  He, more than anyone else, has a reason to use strong language against the boys in describing what happened.  But I can see NO verbiage to indicate force, coercion, or anything but consensual intercourse.  NONE.  He does say that he believes they are predators with a 'sexual conquest chart' -- which, while indicating stupid teenage boys lauded by every 80s-90s teen movie ever, still does not imply more to me than boys who sought a target they felt would be easier to get to say 'yes.'  16-17 years old still doesn't have the prefrontal cortex development to make smart and ethical decisions, so just like I don't hold the girl fully accountable, I don't mark the boys as fully culpable villains, either.  But I really feel like I'm missing something, since your views seems to indicate you feel a full rape, possibly violent, occurred.  I'm really confused. 

General Discussion / Re: Scenario Input
« on: January 13, 2018, 12:57:16 am »
I never said the boys have no culpability.  But to say that she has ZERO responsibility is also wrong.  There has been NOTHING in the information given to indicate in the least that the sex was not consensual, quite the opposite.  There may have been coercion, or the boys may have seen in her as an easy way to add to their tally sheet.  Yes, they may have more than even 50% culpability.  But the fact is, from what curlybat has said, she CHOSE to do this.  Unless there are key details kept from us (which wouldn't make sense, since curlybat has more reason to defend her than not), it was not rape except for the legal age of consent. 

It's is not an either/or.  Girls are not always just victims.  And curlybat's statement of "she nor apparently the boys understand the severity if what they have done" also indicates to me the decision was MUTUAL.  And the fact that she slept with TWO boys, not just one, also indicates a pattern on HER part. 

I believe that she is not completely psychologically (or morally) culpable because of the damage in her youth, and if there was undue coercion from the boys, that's not good either.  But to take away ALL her responsibility is to minimize or even dismiss her power and control in her own life and to damage her severely. 
I was offered beer when I was six.  I was invited to watch porn when I was 16.  In both cases, there was a lot of duress to comply.  In both cases, I refused.  Was the pressure for me to do those things wrong?  Yes.  But I STILL HAD CHOICES and because I had learned that I am responsible for my own choices, I had the strength to say no.  If culpability for mistakes had been taken away from me, I would not have learned that, and I would have had more internal damage and would have hated myself more than I already did.  Learning that I have the power and responsibility for my own choices has been absolutely key to my survival.

General Discussion / Re: Scenario Input
« on: January 12, 2018, 04:37:36 pm »
13 years old she cannot LEGALLY give consent.  But she is capable of making choices, consciously.  That is why we have the age of accountability in our church as 8, not 18. 

What I don't think people realize is that labeling a 13 year old girl as not responsible for her own choices is as objectifying and damaging as seeing her as a possession (which this sort of is, she is becoming a possession to be protected) or a sex object.  Is she FULLY capable of responsible, well-reasoned choices?  No.  But I know TONS of adults, most of whom are their own guardians (and thus legally responsible for themselves), who are also not fully capable of responsible, well-reasoned choices.
With power comes responsibility.  But the flip side is also true: with responsibility comes power.  Only when we are held responsible (at a reasonable level) for our own choices and actions, do we start to gain the strength and power necessary to grow and learn and be responsible adults. 

General Discussion / Re: Scenario Input
« on: January 12, 2018, 11:13:34 am »
Roper, I like some of the things you said, but I take issue with this:
Don't talk to their bishop. What will that accomplish?  It just makes it more difficult when you go to court because attorneys from both sides will ask who you talked to, and they will have to take depositions from whomever you told.

Bishops are ecclesiastical leaders and as such have privilege, which means they cannot be forced to testify (including give a deposition). 

And people keep assuming that the girl was a pure victim here, when Curlybat said nothing of the sort.  He said it happened, with no information on whether it was considered consensual by the girl or not.  While this is TECHNICALLY still a crime, I feel it is not only unfair to the boys to extrapolate from that that she could be nothing but a victim, but it dismisses HER and may brush the real issues (which it is entirely possible center around HER) under the rug and delay or avoid getting her help that she needs.

And thank you, pnr, for being an experienced voice in the matter.

I don't know exactly what happened.  The only one here who does is curlybat, and he was very guarded with details (which I applaud him for).  But so many people here are making assumptions as to her innocence or guilt in the matter.  Yes, girls are often victims to boys.  But is that 100% the case?  No.  Do we have any of the details necessary to judge as we have been?  Absolutely not.  It's very easy, especially if you have daughters, to go into protective mode.  But we just don't know enough of the circumstances. 

Creative Corner / Re: Throw-together recipes
« on: January 11, 2018, 03:03:05 pm »
Roper: I wonder how that recipe would work with sweetened condensed milk instead of sugar.  Oooo!

General Discussion / Re: Scenario Input
« on: January 11, 2018, 01:37:24 am »
well, a 13 yo can't LEGALLY give consent, and her frontal cortex isn't well developed enough to be smart in her decision, but she could believe she gave consent, which complicates matters.
I would think it would depend on the boys.  If their families have an ounce of integrity, I would go to the parents.  because otherwise. it is possible (depending on the state) that the boys could be charged with statutory rape and put on a sex offender list for the rest of their life for what they thought was consensual sex.  Do I think they made a major mistake?  Yes.  But some states and their registry laws make no difference between that type of mistake and actual rape of a minor, which can destroy a person's life. 
But if the boys are serious problems in a lot of ways and their family seems to care very little or like their involvement would be ineffective, I would go to the police.

General Discussion / Re: Work challenge: the rambling, endless overtalker
« on: January 10, 2018, 09:30:50 pm »
Theoretically, it's about setting and enforcing healthy boundaries.
But I have an aunt who, along with her 9 kids, never stops talking.  Like, literally, follow you to your car and keep talking to you as you smile and nod and get in the car and start it up and roll down the window while you keep smiling and nodding and slowly get out of the driveway and drive away and in your rear view mirror they are STILL TALKING TO YOU.
And no, it's not about anything important.
IOW, boundaries are easier said than done. 

General Discussion / Re: Grades in Elementary School
« on: January 08, 2018, 05:26:02 pm »
The only reason I can see this being remotely a good idea is that, quite often, when presented with complete failure, hopelessness sets in and people (not just kids) stop trying. 

But then again, many people stop trying more if they think they are skating by, too. 

Bah.  I wish parents were just better at THEIR jobs.

Mormon Life / Re: What to do
« on: January 08, 2018, 01:39:19 am »
I absolutely, positively would NOT talk to Bro. Card or recommend or try to set up any sort of meeting.  Period.  Personally, I would HATE it if someone I knew who liked me knew someone who hated me and tried to get us to 'talk.'  "Here, I know this person who hates you.  You really need to meet!"  No matter how well intentioned, I know that I have bad sides, and this person is already predisposed to find them.  To put Bro Card in that position would be, to me, naive and ultimately disastrous.

Doctrines & Scholarship / Re: Moses 1:6
« on: January 04, 2018, 12:50:26 pm »
I think I'm understanding you, I'm just saying it's something I already had had to learn. 

Doctrines & Scholarship / Re: Moses 1:6
« on: January 04, 2018, 12:25:57 pm »
For me, it doesn't change a thing.  We've always been taught we've been created in God's image.  I've been taught and now have a testimony of the fact that we are gods and goddesses in embryo.
As a female, this has the potential of being disheartening or disenfranchising (i.e., I am female with obviously different physical traits from a male God, so how can this apply to me?), but for me it isn't, because it forces me to see this in a broader less exact way.  So, just like a person born without arms, legs, feet, hands, or even a brain, or with other severe congenital deformities, is still in the image of God, we need to look at this in a different way. 

Christ had to be born of a MORTAL woman.  Half God, with the power to overcome death and the flaws of his physical body, but half mortal (mortal, to me, being flawed physical state.  As in, the tiny genetic mutations and weaknesses present in almost everything on the earth) so that he could experience the temptations and suffering inherent in the flaws.  We are similar, in that we are also subject to the flaws of our flesh, but we are also similar in that we have seeds of divinity within us.  In Christ, those seeds were already to full fruition, and the fact that his PHYSICAL father was God gave him more power.  But we, too, have power to choose and to overcome the temptations of the flesh (though to a lesser degree for now).  It is part of the path of Becoming. 

Writers' Showcase / Re: Fan fiction
« on: December 13, 2017, 01:06:48 am »
I had that epiphany with segue (seg-way).  And I admit, there are things I think I'm smart for figuring out.  But most of the time I feel like I've been an idiot for not figuring it out before, and/or like everyone else must have known that.  The thing that I find different about the young fandoms is that they put themselves in echo chambers of similarly ignorant people (mostly because of stage and life and interests, not, I think, so much because they want an echo chamber), so they get too much reinforcement that they are the only ones figuring this stuff out.  It's an skewed feedback loop. 

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