New Nauvoo Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: LMAshton on September 05, 2017, 05:12:33 am

Title: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: LMAshton on September 05, 2017, 05:12:33 am
Please put your current events/discussions regarding US Politics here. Remember to keep all discussion polite and well-mannered.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on September 05, 2017, 05:24:16 am
Remember to keep all discussion polite and well-mannered.
IOW, pretend you are a politician who is trying not to act like one, but to set a good example for your kids so they have a chance of growing up to be decent human beings.  :D
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: JLM on September 05, 2017, 12:44:56 pm
So no ad hominem attacks against fellow contributors?
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on September 05, 2017, 08:14:31 pm
Only if you say, "Bless their heart" after you say something nasty.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on September 06, 2017, 12:29:46 am
Well, we aren’t supposed to say anything nasty about our fellow contributors, right? We’re supposed to save those for the politicians. :D

So I'll start... President Trump, President Obama, Secretary Clinton, Senator McConnell, Speaker Ryan, Leader Schumer, Leader Pelosi, etc... bless their dear, sweet, beautiful, noble, gracious hearts ... :D rofl.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: JLM on September 06, 2017, 02:11:06 am
"Only if you say, "Bless their heart" after you say something nasty. "

I think you have to be true southerner to get away with that.  Given my left coast heritage, I'm afraid I don't qualify.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: AndrewR on September 06, 2017, 07:59:22 am
<derail>
Quote
Given my left coast heritage

Sorry, is this actually a thing? Has the US dumbed down to the point where West and East are no longer used to describe geographical locations?

</derail>
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: dyany on September 06, 2017, 10:58:22 am
Andrew, it is a silly phrase meant to refer to both where the West lies on a map and their political leanings.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: JLM on September 13, 2017, 02:01:24 pm
I'm starting to wonder if Trump is really a Trojan Horse.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on September 13, 2017, 06:29:47 pm
Why didn't I think of that? And who would have put that Trojan horse in place? There could be more than one possible answer.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on September 13, 2017, 09:29:20 pm
I think Pres. Trump is the electorate's response to Pres. Obama's abuse of executive power. So instead of leader, we got the world's most recognizable hatchet man.  "You're fired!"
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Hobbes on September 15, 2017, 12:00:00 pm
Why didn't I think of that? And who would have put that Trojan horse in place? There could be more than one possible answer.

The Trojons.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Jason on September 16, 2017, 06:55:00 am
I am glad that President Trump is working with the other side. There has been so much acrimony, that perhaps working with them on a relatively easily justifiable concession will allow inroads for future cooperation. Politicians, while outwardly hard core, are inwardly pragmatists.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on September 21, 2017, 02:57:36 am
Lookie here, 4 whole days without a post on this thread. And with all the sensational & bizarre related events & statements that have been flying around. Maybe the Nauvoodle neighborhood is getting weary of all the political stuff & is settling down to live normal lives again. :)

** Dodges as a golf ball comes sailing by & barely misses drilling me in the back.  **

Look out, Punkin. You too, Ivie. It isn't safe for kitty cats around here. Let's go back to the Cabin before someone grabs you.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Jason on September 23, 2017, 10:11:08 pm
I began watching a few youtube videos about people visiting North Korea, as well as listening to interviews from people that have escaped from North Korea. The North Korean people all believe that the USA and capitalism and exploited South Korea and they are all living in poverty. They believe that they will some day liberate South Korea and increase their standard of living.

Kim Jong Un put on weight and cuts his hair like he does so that he looks more like his grandfather, who is very beloved. If you do not cry loudly enough on the anniversaries of their beloved leaders deaths, you may be into one of their prison camps. Their prison camps are very similar to the labor camps in NAZI Germany, with many people dying of starvation. Many are executed. There are forced abortions. They also have generational imprisonment, where not only the criminal is imprisoned, but his parents and children, even those not yet born, will also be imprisoned.

Courts are controlled by the politicians. Laws are there to protect the rights of the state, rather than individual rights.

There are 2 TV channels, both controlled by the government. There are around 30 websites you can access, but only the elite can even get onto the internet. All the news is expressed at how the rest of the world trembles before the might of their beloved leader, thus they are able to achieve political victories that gives them Food Relief. One solution they are using for controlling hunger is to encourage limiting yourselves to only 2 meals a day.

They have museums dedicated to the atrocities that the Big Noses (Americans) committed during the Korean war. They have set up America to be the Bogey Man, and begin indoctrination early on.

Calling Kim Jong Un "Rocket Man" seems like an appropriate way to respond to him. He maintains power by becoming a god to them, so Trump brings him back down to earth.

Watch some of those videos. It is amazing.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on September 25, 2017, 08:39:00 pm
He may well fit the "Rocket Man" title, but it's a legitimate concern that two world leaders with nuclear weapons at their disposal are carrying on this kind of personal, emotional feud & continually escalating it.

We are looking at two impulsive, ego- & hormone- driven boys who have trouble controlling their actions or their mouths, admitting any personal fault or accountability, or recognizing that everything we do or say has consequences that we can't always control. This is the kind of toddler playground behavior that responsible mommies & daddies do their best to redirect. And we have supposedly grown adults doing it, with billions of human lives at stake. I am not sure whether Kim or Trump is more worrisome, & the combination of the two of them is an absolute catastrophe.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Jason on September 26, 2017, 09:08:14 pm
He may well fit the "Rocket Man" title, but it's a legitimate concern that two world leaders with nuclear weapons at their disposal are carrying on this kind of personal, emotional feud & continually escalating it.

We are looking at two impulsive, ego- & hormone- driven boys who have trouble controlling their actions or their mouths, admitting any personal fault or accountability, or recognizing that everything we do or say has consequences that we can't always control. This is the kind of toddler playground behavior that responsible mommies & daddies do their best to redirect. And we have supposedly grown adults doing it, with billions of human lives at stake. I am not sure whether Kim or Trump is more worrisome, & the combination of the two of them is an absolute catastrophe.
It is easy to tell which one is more worrisome. In one country anyone who said anything remotely negative about the president would be executed and their children and parents placed in a concentration camp to die of starvation and torture. In the other country a whole industry has cropped up to bad mouth the president, and it is considered patriotic. In one country hundreds of thousands are starved because of the leaders. In the other country there is abundance of food, so much that even the poor tend to get enough to eat. In one country information is so suppressed and distorted that they believe their rich neighbors to the south are dying in poverty. In the other country there is so much information that you can choose any point of view to believe. In one country hundreds of thousands have been killed in camps to maintain the state's rights. In the other country the individual rights are paramount.

In one country the leader is akin to Pol Pot and Stalin. In the other country the leader has finally gotten the entire world, and especially China to do a bit more to enforce sanctions, something that Clinton, Bush, and Obama never accomplished. I do not like the way Trump communicates. I did not vote for him. But I often view him as similar to an incision and drainage of an infected wound. Gross to watch, but necessary to get the infection out.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: cook on September 28, 2017, 02:54:23 pm
I see your point. But I do worry more about the US launching their weapon than the other way around. Maybe history has something to do with it.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on September 30, 2017, 02:01:57 am
There is no doubt that Kim is a worse despot than Trump, & the atrocities he has committed against his own people are worse than anything any American authorities do to Americans.

With that said, I thank God we have a system of checks & balances that puts controls over any official of any persuasion who might seek to misuse the power of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the U.S. government. There is no such control in North Korea. Even if a totally certifiable, psychopathic maniac were in the highest positions in the U.S. (not that it could or would happen – or has – just sayin’), there would be constitutional checks on that person’s abuse of power. Those in the other branches, or the violator’s own branch, would need to recognize it & have the courage & integrity to do their duty. In the executive branch, where this scenario is likeliest to happen, others in that branch could include the Vice President, the Cabinet, National Security Council, even the military. No, I don’t want to see the United States ever have a coup d’etat, but might it ever be justified? I don’t even want to go there, even think about it; but I don't doubt that there are people in government who do.

The fact is, I do not trust either Kim or Trump with nuclear weapons because of personality traits they both display that make them untrustworthy. If Kim were to initiate an attack, there’s no doubt that Americans would support a counter-attack. But the truth is that I also fear Trump’s impulsiveness, ego, inability to acknowledge not only that he could be wrong, but that anyone else might be partly right, & lack of self-control. The only reason I am willing to see him anywhere near the nuclear codes is because he cannot press the button all by himself.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on October 03, 2017, 06:09:09 pm
Congratulations, disaster victims: you now have a golf trophy dedicated to you. And not just ANY golf trophy, mind you. Feel honored - that's an executive order.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/politics/article/The-Latest-Trump-cites-great-job-in-helping-12244316.php

And we’ve just discovered a way to help balance the national budget: some folks have just got to quit having disasters. Or if they insist on having them, at least have real ones that kill more people so they can justifiably be called disasters & therefore won’t be resented so much when they put dents in the budget.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/politics/us/article/Trump-Puerto-Rico-thrown-budget-out-of-whack-12249432.php
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: kazbert on October 03, 2017, 07:08:43 pm
Regarding North Korea:

I could be wrong, but I don't think either NK or US is going to set off a nuke on the other's territory.  The question is: Why does NK want nukes and ICBMs?  What's Kim's game plan?  For 70 years and three generations of Kim's, their over-arching wish has been to reunite North and South.  They know the only way to do this is by military force.  NK may be willing to launch thousands of shells and rockets at Seoul, but they don't want to destroy the South.  They won't nuke it.  They want to take it over.  You don't destroy the very thing you're lusting after.  The reason NK wants nukes and ICBM's is to discourage the US from interfering when NK makes their move to annex the South.  I think Kim believes that the US people will not seek to rescue South Korea if it will cost us a few nuclear detonations on our own soil to do it.  Kim knows that the moment he launches a nuke at the US he will be dead within days.  I also think Kim is convinced that Trump will nuke NK if Kim tries to take over the South because Trump will act impulsively.  Kim is going to wait until the Trump administration ends, a more level-headed president takes his place, and Kim will just continue building up nukes and ICBMs until then. 
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on October 04, 2017, 10:16:46 pm
The question is: Why does NK want nukes and ICBMs? 
Leverage during negotiations.  Particularly with China.  If NK can become part of the nuclear club, they can play with the big boys.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on October 16, 2017, 05:25:21 pm
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/trump-s-false-claim-about-obama-fallen-soldiers-n811206

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-gays-pence-hang-them-all_us_59e4afd5e4b04d1d518320d9

Wow, what can we look forward to next?

He has belittled & verbally emasculated half his Cabinet; feuded with Congressional leaders, including Republicans he can’t afford to antagonize if he wants his agenda passed; quarreled & obsessed continually with the “failing media” about “fake news” & made noises about muzzling freedom of the press; spent enormous time & energy tweeting about the NFL; made sick jokes about disaster victims, blamed them for their own problems, demeaned their hurricane because it didn’t kill enough people, & tossed towel rolls at them like peanuts at monkeys in the zoo; & deliberately provoked some of the world’s most experienced & respected leaders & some of the world’s most dangerous & volatile tyrants.

For once, one measly, piddly little time, can’t he just make a simple statement, or give a simple answer to a simple question, or say he has no comment & needs to study an issue more? Must there always be some stupid, insensitive comment that he thinks builds him up & makes him look brilliant, tough, or witty, but serves only to hurt people more, make them angrier, push other world leaders closer to their own breaking point, or distance Americans even further from each other?

Repeat after me, “President Pence."
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on October 17, 2017, 09:01:39 pm
A lot of pundits like to portray Kim Jong Un as mentally imbalanced.  The game he plays with nuclear weapons development shows that he isn't.  Yes, he can make all kinds of threats against the U.S., knowing that we will do nothing.  We don't have the political will or national interest to get into a shooting match with North Korea.  The game is for the other countries in the region who are watching.  "Kim Jong Un is deranged enough to challenge the United States!"  Think of what that means for South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, the Philippines, and even China.  NK will never be able to compete with the U.S. militarily, economically, or in any other way. It's like a five-year-old throwing pebbles at Arnold Schwarzenegger. But you can bet everyone in the region is paying attention.

From that perspective, even Trump's rhetoric has a purpose.  All his bombastic responses to Kim's shenanigans keep China on edge. Which is a good thing.  Over the past decade, China has been growing impervious to economic and political consequences for continual human rights violations.  They just don't care, anymore.  Maybe now they'll be a little more willing to make nice with the U.S. to help contain Kim's ambition.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Jason on October 21, 2017, 10:23:27 pm
The North Korean people absolutely believe they can beat the Big Noses (United States).
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on October 21, 2017, 11:27:31 pm
Well, the North Korean people who have time to think about it, that is.  Most of the people in North Korea are too busy trying to obtain enough to eat.  Food shortages are common. One in three children is malnourished.  Only those who are well placed in the political/military regime have enough time and energy to think about evil Americans.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on November 20, 2017, 12:02:56 am
We used to laugh at Berkeley, San Francisco, Santa Cruz, Portland, etc. for having their own foreign policies & getting embroiled in matters thousands of miles outside their city limits & their official purview, usually on hot-button issues like boycotting Israel trade to show support for Palestine. Some of their ventures into the big wide world are still absurd.

Now, an increasing number of American states & communities, & not only flaky ones, are actually finding it necessary to get involved in foreign affairs, or foreign countries are reaching out to states & communities, because of unavailability or inability at the federal level to participate in some international relationships in meaningful ways.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Frustrated-foreign-leaders-bypass-Washington-in-12367877.php
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on November 29, 2017, 03:37:30 pm
Sarah Huckabee Sanders defends the POTUS retweeting discredited slurs about Muslims, on the grounds that “the threat is real.” IOW, it’s OK to use any kind of lies, slurs, or inflammatory stereotypes about any ethnic group if some people in that ethnic group are committing crimes.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/white-house-defends-trumps-muslim-tweets/ar-BBFVxeP?li=AA5a8k&ocid=spartanntp

Theresa May condemns this retweeting.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/theresa-may-calls-trumps-anti-muslim-retweets-wrong/ar-BBFVzW1?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp

OTOH (I can’t find it now), David Duke praises Trump for the same tweet & standing up for Making America Great Again. So whose judgment do you think is more reliable, huh? A “Great American” who was a grand wizard of the KKK, ran for public office numerous times on racist, anti-Semitic platforms, denies the Holocaust, collaborated with neo-Nazis all over the world & even with Ahmedinajad in Iran on anti-Semitic activities, & called Muslim women in hijab “a hag in a bag” – or some dame over in London?

Of course, you don’t impeach a POTUS just for incessant, intemperate, unfiltered tweeting & foaming at the mouth with toxic, hateful, bigoted speech. Can’t do that. Those don’t rise to the level of proving a person constitutionally unfit to be POTUS. Crazy, loathsome, maybe - but not unfit to run the United States of America.

OTOH, there’s the Russia investigation, & what do Jared Kushner & Michael Flynn know that the rest of us would like to hear?
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on November 29, 2017, 06:45:07 pm
IOW, it’s OK to use any kind of lies, slurs, or inflammatory stereotypes about any ethnic group if some people in that ethnic group are committing crimes.

Not only is it okay, you can become rich and (in)famous doing it.  Just ask Pam Geller.

We need a vomiting emoticon.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on November 29, 2017, 07:42:56 pm
Here you are. Custom designed for a good deal of what goes on around us today. 

For when  :( or ::)  or  >:(  don't quite do it.



(http://cdn.thestorypedia.com/images/2016/06/Emoticon_Sick.png)
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: dyany on November 30, 2017, 01:01:23 pm
Going back a bit to Roper's comment about Kim Jong Un, being smart and being mentally imbalanced are in no way mutually exclusive.  'mentally imbalanced' means mentally ill, which can mean a plethora of things, usually involving inappropriate emotional reactions and/or delusions of some sort, but that doesn't have anything to do with being intelligent.  In this case, it makes him more scary.  Being mentally imbalanced means Kim Jong Un overreacts in a negative manner to input, possibly due to delusional ideas about his own importance or threats to his own safety (paranoia).  But that doesn't mean he's stupid.  He could be smart about grandstanding, making threats, and doing despicable things in a (so far, successful) effort to control the behavior of people and countries around him, even though the delusions upon which the smarts are based are not real.

Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on November 30, 2017, 10:20:56 pm
Since none of us can make a qualified diagnosis of mental health, all we have are observable behaviors.  I think the megalomania is mostly a show to keep Western media focused on the wrong thing--apparent personality disorders.  I think that more than anything, Kim Jong Un wants to be taken seriously in a world which has sidelined his country since 1953. He's politically immature--an elementary school bully on the global playground.  So, rather than provoke him (Trump's idiotic responses), we should be responding like we would to any bully.  Ignore his staged bravado unless he hurts someone. Reward his appropriate behaviors to help him feel powerful. Hopefully he'll grow out this nonsense.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: dyany on December 01, 2017, 04:05:41 pm
That, I agree with.  But unfortunately, our leader is at the same maturity level. :(
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on December 23, 2017, 07:48:15 pm
Jana is a lot closer to this & probably knows exactly who said what. So I’ll just post it without comment. If it’s fake news, she can clarify. ;D

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/12/22/trumps-ambassador-to-the-netherlands-just-got-caught-lying-about-the-dutch/?utm_term=.debf3017b3e7&wpisrc=nl_az_most&wpmk=1

And there are ways to wish people Merry Christmas without politicizing it or pushing it in anyone’s face. We live in a country with Judaeo-Christian origins that is becoming more diverse, & there isn’t any need for any politician (or any person) to make holiday greetings confrontational, or single out non-Christians (in some politician-speak, read immigrants), or call attention to all these folks who don’t believe in Christ – many of whom act more "Christian" than some public figures who make a big spectacle of being Christian.

http://m.sfgate.com/news/politics/article/There-s-no-missing-Trump-s-Merry-Christmas-12451869.php#photo-12287786
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on January 09, 2018, 06:34:59 pm
Did everyone pay their tithing? Did you have tithing settlement & give the bishop an honest accounting? Are you RIGHT WITH GOD - or would you ROB GOD?

Don't you dare lie now, or you will face His wrath.

http://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/Trump-s-spiritual-adviser-Send-me-your-Jan-12485105.php
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on January 11, 2018, 10:09:08 pm
This is the face of America to the world.

https://www.aol.com/article/news/2018/01/11/trump-why-are-we-having-all-these-people-from-shole-countries-come-here/23331286/
Quote
"Why are we having all these people from s**thole countries come here?"
Maybe Congresswoman Mia Love (R-Utah), the first Haitian-American elected to Congress, can furnish an answer.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Trump-ambassador-to-Netherlands-Muslim-Hague-12489528.php

http://www.sfgate.com/news/politics/article/State-Dept-disavows-comments-by-US-ambassador-to-12491609.php

* Crawls down a deep hole & pulls dirt in over head *

ETA comments by Rep. Mia Love:
https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900007378/rep-mia-love-demands-president-trump-apologize-for-vulgar-remark-about-haiti.html
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on February 20, 2018, 09:35:35 pm
Wow, this dude can have access to the most important national security matters & carry on sensitive negotiations with world leaders with no security clearance, but I couldn’t get hired for a job involving oversight of DUI or shoplifting suspects in the pre-detention facility (let alone the county jail) or taking county cars to the maintenance shop back in the day, unless I had actually passed one. What’s wrong with this picture? :-\

https://www.aol.com/article/news/2018/02/20/jared-kushner-can-do-job-without-security-clearance/23366846/
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on February 20, 2018, 11:08:43 pm
When I went to intel school in the Air Force, all airman had to have their Top Secret clearance finalized before they could even go to intel school. Or flight school. In rare cases, a person might get to start school on a temporary clearance, but if it wasn't finalized in the first two months, the person was dis-enrolled and had to choose a new career field which didn't require a TS.  I figure if such a policy is enforced in the military, it should also be enforced for everyone who works in the White House.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on February 20, 2018, 11:33:25 pm
Doesn’t it seem to be a risky precedent to keep people in sensitive positions with their security clearance still pending? If it’s done for Jared Kushner (presumably because he is the POTUS’s son-in-law), who else can get an exception, & on what grounds? 

The last time I had to have a governmental security clearance, I was already working but couldn’t even get a building exterior door key until the background check was complete. White House personnel in transportation, medical, or food services, or who work at Camp David, even members of bands who play for POTUS/VPOTUS occasions, must have a “Yankee White” rating, the highest level of security clearance & the same one required for the military aides who carry the “nuclear football” wherever the POTUS goes.

And yet this person who has no prior government or military experience, therefore only an outsider’s understanding of security considerations, is allowed to negotiate for Middle East peace & access who knows what military or diplomatic intel.

** Scratching head **
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Palmon on April 27, 2018, 05:02:16 pm
Quote
  So, rather than provoke him (Trump's idiotic responses), we should be responding like we would to any bully.  Ignore his staged bravado unless he hurts someone. Reward his appropriate behaviors to help him feel powerful. Hopefully he'll grow out this nonsense.

Quote
But unfortunately, our leader is at the same maturity level.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/donald-trumps-america/103445864/us-president-donald-trump-deserves-nobel-peace-prize-for-korean-triumph (https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/donald-trumps-america/103445864/us-president-donald-trump-deserves-nobel-peace-prize-for-korean-triumph)

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/op-eds/trump-deserves-a-nobel-prize-obama-got-one-for-less (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/op-eds/trump-deserves-a-nobel-prize-obama-got-one-for-less)

https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/A-Nobel-prize-for-Trump-Xi-Moon-and-Kim2 (https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/A-Nobel-prize-for-Trump-Xi-Moon-and-Kim2)

Ignoring NK led to nuclear empowered Kim.
You may not like his methods, but they seem to have the results that presidents from the 1950's have sought.



Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on April 27, 2018, 10:05:54 pm
Sure.  Why not give Trump a Nobel Peace Prize?  Obama got one, and he did virtually nothing to earn it besides talk a lot. 

Trump has waged cultural war against Muslims, economic war against Mexicans, and psychological war against women.  But hey, IF he can get North and South Korea to talk about peace, let's give him a prize! 

I guess the days are gone when the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded to the likes of Red Cross, UNICEF, Amnesty International, organizations to end nuclear and chemical war, Mother Theresa, Linus Pauling, and Martin Luther King, Jr.

Al Gore, Barack Obama, and maybe Donald Trump? It's like the Academy Awards for politicians.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Palmon on April 28, 2018, 02:50:01 am
Whether Trump gets a noble peace prize (unlikely) is irrelevant as it lost any meaning a long time ago.

Likewise, this thread turned into an Anti-Trump thread a long time ago. My point is that for some of the things he was dismissed for have actually have been successful. It makes no difference if you like him or not, his success is being recognized by both political parties. North Korea and South Korea agreeing to get rid of nuclear weapons is a big deal. Signing a treaty ending the Korean War is a big deal. To repeat, both have been a goal of all the presidents since the 1950's. It seems his tweets did not end in a nuclear disaster after all.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on April 28, 2018, 04:31:48 am
I guess the days are gone when the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded to the likes of Red Cross, UNICEF, Amnesty International, organizations to end nuclear and chemical war, Mother Theresa, Linus Pauling, and Martin Luther King, Jr.
Agree.

Likewise, this thread turned into an Anti-Trump thread a long time ago.
Don’t agree.

I don’t think this thread has turned into a Trump bash-fest, & I have also looked with dismay at some of the Nobel Peace Prize choices. When I was growing up, people looked up to Nobel Peace laureates as the best among us, like those Roper mentioned, or the U.N. High Commissioner on Refugees, U.N. Peacekeeping Forces, Doctors Without Borders, Mikhail Gorbachev, Elie Wiesel, or Malala.

It’s an insult to those distinguished people & organizations to elevate either Trump or Kim to their level. I doubt that Albert Schweitzer, Mother Theresa, or Martin Luther King would roll over in their graves at the news, because they were people who did strive to make their world a better place & they would want to give these two proposed recipients the benefit of the doubt & try to think the best of them – something neither of them makes easy.

Not that I minimize the importance of a final settlement of the Korean War & denuclearization of the Koreas; if these two basically awful individuals can get lucky & make it happen, I’m grateful to them. But IMO the Nobel Peace Prize should recognize a person or group’s overall life work & achievements (or at least efforts) in peacemaking, humanitarian, human rights, or other endeavors that benefit & uplift all of humanity. As contentious & violent as the modern history of the Middle East has been, I was glad to see Anwar Sadat/Menachem Begin and Arafat/Peres/Rabin receive Nobels for their ongoing efforts to solve a conflict that has long seemed unsolvable. They were imperfect, but they put intensive effort over many years into bringing peace to the Middle East, & they deserved the recognition.

The word "imperfect" to describe Trump or Kim would be totally inadequate & fall so far short of reality to be ridiculous. Objectively, the overall life work of either of them would never come close to any of those others Roper or I mentioned. Saying either deserves a Nobel is like suggesting Mussolini should get a civic service award for getting the trains to run on time.

Tyrants or wannabee tyrants who isolate, imprison, torture, & summarily execute their own people (even their own kinfolk); who sow distrust, hostility, & bigotry; who single out racial, religious, gender, or cultural groups to harass (or call third world countries ****holes); who flex their weaponry & their mouths to threaten or intimidate; who set individuals, groups, communities, & nations against each other rather than seeking to unify people – basically, those who build walls (or seek to) rather than bridges between people do not deserve the Nobel Peace Prize.

Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on April 28, 2018, 01:38:24 pm
Not specifically anti-Trump.  Anti anyone who mistreats people and passes it off as "No Big Deal" for the sake of political expediency.

If the qualifications for the Nobel Peace Prize have become so Machiavellian, then the prize belongs to Kim. He stamped his feet and threatened and threw rocks until the grownups of the world engaged with him.  He didn't earn peace by being a champion for human rights. He didn't earn peace through programs and policies to build an economy which would lift his people out of poverty. He built nuclear weapons and threatened everyone around him.  But hey, he got Japan, South Korea, China, and the U.S. to at least respond.  So let's encourage that kind of behavior with prizes for everyone!

If the end justifies the means to peace, then the Prince of Peace's teachings about peace were wrong.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on April 28, 2018, 11:20:12 pm
I saw on the Nobel Prize website that there are 329 nominees for the 2018 Peace award: 216 individuals & 113 organizations. This means Kim & Trump need to be judged the most deserving over 327 other nominees, of whom I daresay most are probably a better caliber of people. Achieving a final peace in Korea would be momentous, & I wouldn’t want to deny either of them credit for getting us there if they manage to make it happen. But as I said in my earlier post, IMO the Nobel Peace Prize should not be for a one-off achievement, but for proven long-term commitment to the words, actions, & attitudes that make the world a better place & the human race a better species. Based on everything they’ve said & done so far, I absolutely do not see Trump or Kim meeting that standard.

Nominators for any Nobel need to have proven qualifications in that field. Peace nominators must be university professors (active or emeriti) in specific fields, heads of state or government officials, members of the International Court at The Hague, prior Nobel Peace laureates, & certain others, some invited to participate by the Nobel Committee. Nominee lists are sealed for 50 years, with the Nobel Committee & nominators forbidden to disclose anything about nominations. So the likelihood is that many of us here will never know, at least in this life! And BTW, you can't nominate yourself, so if Trump or Kim was proposed, they found corrupt people who did meet the nominator qualifications & bribed them to do it. :D

Not sure how it was determined, but the Nobel Prize website lists the “Most Popular” Peace recipients as Martin Luther King, Malala Yousafzai, Mother Theresa, Jane Addams, Elie Wiesel, & Nelson Mandela. Such people set a high standard, which the Nobel Committee should do its best to maintain.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: cook on April 29, 2018, 03:26:17 am
Can someone explain to me why this is considered to be because Trump has done something good/right?

Yes, this may mean it is more probable that Trump and Kim has their "super meeting", but even that is not guaranteed. A similar meeting between the leaders of Koreas and same agreements were done 2007 and nothing happened. Would Kim really get rid of nuclear weapons? Most likely not. Would US agree to have peace without them getting rid of nuclear weapons? Most likely not. Call me a pessimistic, but I don't see much happening here.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on April 29, 2018, 12:32:56 pm
I really really hope for the elimination of NK's nuclear weapons program. I hope for an end to the DMZ and the reunification of the Koreas. I hope for the opportunity for the people of the world to show their good will toward NK and help to lift them out of the poverty that has plagued families for generations.  It will be one of the greatest achievements I have witnessed in my lifetime.

However, it will not be brought about by a commitment to peace.  It will be brought about by the fear of war.  Trump and Kim have already said as much. One should get a Peace Prize for pursuing peace. One shouldn't get a Peace Prize for threatening invasion, war, and retaliation. That's brinkmanship, not peace.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Jason on May 15, 2018, 03:27:59 pm
I think the biggest push for resolution will be when they allow their people to freely travel between the two countries. Families will be reunited. Those in North Korea will see what prosperity looks like. And South Korea can likely learn some things from North Korea, too.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on May 18, 2018, 10:00:10 pm
I'm sure ya'll have seen the news by now:  Kim threatening to disengage from peace talks and Trump retaliating with threats of "decimation." Sigh... It's like watching second grade bullies kick sand at each other.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on May 19, 2018, 04:40:17 pm
But second-grade bullies kicking sand at each other can’t wipe out millions of people in a single burst of infantile, temperamental brattiness.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on May 28, 2018, 09:14:01 pm
Way to go, prezzie. ::) Use one of America’s most solemn days to beat your own political drum. This might look a bit different (but not much) if you at least had served like so many of your military high school classmates, “heroes proved in liberating strife, who more than self their country loved,” instead of in your papa’s business empire while sitting on your liberating heel spurs.

http://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-memorial-day-2018-remarks-slammed-critics-946322
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on May 28, 2018, 11:28:20 pm
Well, it looks like this year I'll be voting for democrats for the Senate and House to counter the Oval Office's agenda, democrats for state offices to help protect Utah's public lands, and democrats for local offices to stem the tide of cutting community services in one of the nation's fastest growing economies.  This will be a first.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: JLM on May 29, 2018, 03:14:40 am
Roper, I knew there was still good in you. Welcome to the light side.   ;)

I understand where you are coming from.  My 5 year stint in Utah cured me of voting along republican party lines.  Those Utah R's are cra-zy. 

I tend to vote about 70% D and 30% R these days.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on June 13, 2018, 08:00:35 am
Great news, everyone. [where's the applause graemlin when you really need it?] The big threat from “Little Rocket Man” has been eliminated. The whole region is so safe that the U.S. will cease joint war games with South Korea, an apparent surprise to South Korea & the Pentagon. DT says that will save money.

Quote
"Everybody can now feel much safer than the day I took office. There is no longer a Nuclear Threat from North Korea.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/trump-says-north-korea-no-longer-a-nuclear-threat/ar-AAyA9f2?ocid=spartanntp

https://www.sfgate.com/news/politics/article/The-Latest-SKorea-still-trying-to-parse-Trump-s-12989861.php?cmpid=overnight

Trump, Pyongyang, & Moscow are happy.

OTOH, Canada is still a problem …. Maybe with the savings from the military exercises, we can build another wall, to the north.

Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on June 13, 2018, 09:20:56 am
"Everybody can now feel much safer than the day I took office."

Tell that to the 160 million women in the U.S. whose president sexually assaulted women and bragged about it, and then it was all swept under the rug.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: JLM on June 13, 2018, 12:01:12 pm
You see, the MAGA crowd don't care about any of this.  Their primary interest is in preserving their white trash, redneck culture.  Guns and their religion of white privilege are all that matters to them. 

Sadly, most of the GOP leadership have caved.  While more and more Republicans are getting on board with Trumpism, fewer and fewer people are sticking with the GOP.  I suspect the Republican party is going the way if the Whig party, drifting into irrelevance by clinging to policies no longer relevant in a changed world.  I hope whateven party comes in to replace it will temper some of the worst tendencies of the Democratic party.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on June 13, 2018, 12:17:39 pm
Sadly, most of the GOP leadership have caved. 
Yep. Politics became more important than people. I've been slowly walking away from the Republican party for about a decade.  Trump turned it into a sprint.  The sad thing is this:  There are many good and decent Republicans in office. Trump bullies them into submission. And they submit. Hopefully, people will come to their senses by 2020.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: JLM on June 13, 2018, 01:58:06 pm
A legislator who stands by while our constitutional and human rights are attacked by a man child power monger, doesn't deserve to be in office.  Most of our LDS members of congress have been gross embarrassments to the church and our values in this area.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on June 14, 2018, 05:57:09 pm
Using scripture to justify just about anything is as old as scripture.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/sessions-cites-bible-to-defend-separating-immigrant-families/ar-AAyF52Q?ocid=spartandhp

Those who disapprove of the Trump regime's edict to break up families might cite Matthew 19:6 or Mark 10:9, “what God hath joined together…” We usually see this in reference to marriage, but what has God joined together, even more than a husband & wife, than children with their parents?
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: JLM on June 14, 2018, 07:38:06 pm
What a wrest! 
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on June 14, 2018, 10:29:43 pm
I'm not defending or criticizing any policies, here.  I'm just asking a question, because I honestly want to know:

When an adult citizen commits a crime, stealing a car, for example, a police officer arrests the person and puts them in jail.  That separates them from their children.
When a citizen of another country commits a crime, illegally entering the U.S., for example, a border patrol officer arrests the person and detains them. That separates them from their children.

How are these two scenarios different?  Are the outcomes for the kids different?

Again, I'm not defending the practice. I'm curious to know why we consider one acceptable but not the other one.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on June 14, 2018, 11:17:28 pm
Fair question, since in both cases, the adults have done something that violates a law.

I’ll try to answer from my past experience in police & sheriff dispatching, records, warrants, intake, & matron duties. Police matrons may be almost extinct now, but common when there were few women LEOs & special female officers were used to transport & process women or juvenile arrestees, oversee children of arrestees, & in cases with women or juveniles, perform or witness search/seizure or supervise prisoners. This was before the modern enlightened practice of both male & female deputies or correctional officers supervising both male & female prisoners, which is a whole other set of issues.

In cases where an adult is arrested in the U.S. – at least it was the practice when I was in the business – the police will try to locate a family member or other responsible adult approved by the parent to take the kids. Maybe they’re a loving family that does everything together, & Mom took the kids to Target for a shoplifting trip or Dad is DUI with the child in the car. When I was doing this, before taking the adult to jail, the officers would have the dispatchers try to contact someone to come for the kids. Sometimes the officers would even wait at the scene of the arrest for the person to arrive. Or they would take the kids to the PD where the effort would be made. If there were children at home who would be alone, the officers would have dispatchers or matrons try to find someone to look after them.

When local police arrest adults, they don’t just take their children to a mass detention center with dozens of other kids whose parents were arrested, with an open-ended duration & no real assurance of when they will be reunited. And I don’t think any law enforcement or judicial official has ever come out with a blanket statement in advance that if people are arrested for any specific crime, as a consequence they and their kids will automatically be separated.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on June 15, 2018, 12:06:20 am
Thank you, Curelom, for your thoughtful and articulate answer.  That helps me to think about the situation in the context of taking care of kids, and working to minimize the consequences caused by their parents' actions. I can relate to that much better than getting caught up in the political debate part of it.

This whole immigration thing is such a mess. Even before Trump took office, it was really screwed up.  A woman we went to church with in Texas got deported. She left her husband and four young kids here.  She had to go back to Mexico and go through an expensive year-long process to come back.  There should have been a process for her to complete the requirements here, without being deported.  I think it's the height of hubris to deport people.  When colonists came to America, the Native Americans didn't round them up and ship them back to Europe, insisting the colonists go through a long and expensive legal process to come back over.  And look what the colonists did--seized land, spread disease, raped, pillaged, and waged war to take over the continent.  We're here because of their atrocities.

Yes, there needs to be a screening process. Our current process is really broken.  And don't get me started on talk of a wall.  >:(
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on June 15, 2018, 01:49:35 am
Thank you, Curelom, for your thoughtful and articulate answer.  That helps me to think about the situation in the context of taking care of kids, and working to minimize the consequences caused by their parents' actions. I can relate to that much better than getting caught up in the political debate part of it.

Thanks, Roper.

Yeah … see, most regular folks, if they really stop to think about it, are not interested in hurting people or making their lives miserable. And especially children’s lives. In over two decades of working in LE, & collaborating with enforcement people in police, sheriff, fire, & health agencies, I never heard anyone say, “Let’s break up this family, because Dad or Mom is a turd & so the kids deserve to suffer.” We did encounter plenty of turds, but most turds loved their kids & their kids loved them even if they were turds, cuz they were Mom & Dad. And seeing a parent handcuffed & put in a patrol car & taken away has to be the worst thing for a child, short of having the parent desert them or actually die. What person (or at least what person who claims to have human feelings) would want to make the kids’ ordeal even worse?

I worked in a different era in LE, & yet not so long ago (1980s) when cops talked about “gettin’ some stick time” [using their batons] & openly used racial slurs. This was in California, not the Deep South. If someone gave an officer grief, they’d be made sorry, & there wasn’t much of a legal specialty focusing on citizen complaints or police review yet. But not one of the LEOs I knew would have purposely, deliberately, premeditatedly, thought to pull children & parents apart unless a child’s safety required it. Even as crusty, macho, & racist as some of them were, they still thought of themselves as protectors of the public order.

I think it's the height of hubris to deport people.  When colonists came to America, the Native Americans didn't round them up and ship them back to Europe, insisting the colonists go through a long and expensive legal process to come back over.  And look what the colonists did--seized land, spread disease, raped, pillaged, and waged war to take over the continent.  We're here because of their atrocities.

What an interesting idea – I never thought of that, but indeed, it’s true. What a different place this continent would have been if the original residents had refused to accept illegal immigrants at Plymouth Rock or Jamestown or San Diego harbor. What if they’d decided too many foreigners were coming & disrespecting their culture, refusing to learn the language or wear the local clothing, & causing too much violence? I wonder if any Native Americans now in the U.S. wish their ancestors HAD built that wall.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Jason on June 16, 2018, 09:51:10 am
I just learned something. There is a difference between "improper entry" and "unlawful presence". Improper entry is a misdemeanor crime. Unlawful presence is not a crime, but a violation of regulations. It is punished with civil penalties, not criminal penalties. The civil penalties may be deportation, and there is an extensive civil process in place. Many people here may have entered legally, but then overstayed their visas or other allowable times. It could be that 45% of those without proper permission entered this way. They are not criminals, as it is not a violation with criminal penalties.

The fine for the misdemeanor crime of improper entry is $50-$250, but gets more if repeated. Many of us have had traffic tickets for more than that, which are also misdemeanors.

I found this in a 2014 Deseret News article. https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865601049/LDS-Church-reaffirms-stance-on-immigration.html

Interestingly, President Uchtdorf speaks of being a refugee twice.

The article also states, "Our principle, I declared to the president, is that we love our neighbor, which means we love all people, in all places and at all times," President Uchtdorf said. "One of the core values we stand for is families. The separation of families (in U.S. immigration policy) isn't helping."

and

"One of the major pillars is the right to bring and enforce laws, using the rule of law, that enforce our borders," President Uchtdorf said. "First we need a just and caring law balanced with the values and principles that we love our neighbors, that families stay together, and enforce just and compassionate laws."

I think the church would encourage us to find avenues of enforcement that do not separate families. If you get a traffic ticket, you sign the ticket, promising that you will appear at court, rather than being arrested right then.

The article is referencing a 2011 statement from the church which included this, "We recognize an ever-present need to strengthen families. Families are meant to be together. Forced separation of working parents from their children weakens families and damages society".

For many people it is becoming harder to separate their politics from their religion.

2 Nephi 1:5,6 "But, said he, notwithstanding our afflictions, we have obtained a land of promise, a land which is choice above all other lands; a land which the Lord God hath covenanted with me should be a land for the inheritance of my seed. Yea, the Lord hath covenanted this land unto me, and to my children forever, and also all those who should be led out of other countries by the hand of the Lord.

6 Wherefore, I, Lehi, prophesy according to the workings of the Spirit which is in me, that there shall none come into this land save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord."

That last line is interesting to me. It might depend on whether you consider the USA, or Mexico, or central America the promised land, but for many, it is the USA. Can you imagine that all of those that are coming here from India, Pakistan, Syria, Mexico, Guatamala, etc, are brought here by the hand of the Lord?
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on June 17, 2018, 04:38:33 pm
Colleen Kraft, president of the American Association of Pediatrics, visited a shelter for immigrant children on the Texas border.  Here is what she said about kids who are separated from their parents: “The really basic, foundational needs of having trust in adults as a young child was not being met. That contradicts everything we know that the kids need to build their health.” She went on to explain that..."Such a situation could have long-term, devastating effects on young children, who are likely to develop what is called toxic stress in their brain once separated from caregivers or parents they trusted. It disrupts a child’s brain development and increases the levels of fight-or-flight hormones in their bodies. ... This kind of emotional trauma could eventually lead to health problems, such as heart disease and substance abuse disorders."

Nearly 4,600 mental-health professionals and 90 organizations have joined a petition urging President Trump, Attorney General Jeff Sessions and several elected officials to stop the policy of separating children from their parents. The petition states:
Quote
"These children are thrust into detention centers often without an advocate or an attorney and possibly even without the presence of any adult who can speak their language. We want you to imagine for a moment what this might be like for a child: to flee the place you have called your home because it is not safe to stay and then embark on a dangerous journey to an unknown destination, only to be ripped apart from your sole sense of security with no understanding of what just happened to you or if you will ever see your family again. And that the only thing you have done to deserve this, is to do what children do: stay close to the adults in their lives for security. ... To pretend that separated children do not grow up with the shrapnel of this traumatic experience embedded in their minds is to disregard everything we know about child development, the brain, and trauma.”

You can read the full article here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2018/06/16/america-is-better-than-this-what-a-doctor-saw-in-a-texas-shelter-for-migrant-children (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2018/06/16/america-is-better-than-this-what-a-doctor-saw-in-a-texas-shelter-for-migrant-children)
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on June 17, 2018, 05:54:36 pm
Honestly, it shouldn't take a pediatrician or psychologist to grasp this. It seems very simple. I am not a health professional or a teacher, or even a parent, but I get it. Any normal human would. The Republican Party considers itself the defenders of traditional family values, & what could be a more fundamental family value than keeping children with their own mothers or fathers, or other relatives if there is no health, safety, or child welfare reason to separate them?

Those kids are getting 3 hots & a cot in that converted Walmart, but are they getting the less tangible things that kids really need?

Two questions have just popped into my mind: What if these kids were from Northern Europe, which we know DT prefers over ****hole countries that have mostly non-white people? And, if you got the kid all alone & vowed never to quote him, what would Barron Trump really think of all this?

Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on June 18, 2018, 11:25:40 pm
Church is troubled by the forced separation of families & says it is harmful to families & especially children. Elder Uchtdorf, having been a refugee twice from both Nazis and Soviets, can certainly identify.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900022039/troubled-by-forced-separation-of-families-lds-church-calls-for-rational-compassionate-immigration-solutions.html

All living U.S. First Ladies have chimed in, including Melania Trump.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5858095/All-five-living-Ladies-including-Melania-condemn-separating-immigrant-families.html

Rep. Mia Love of Utah, a New York-born daughter of refugees from the repressive Papa Doc Duvalier regime in Haiti, says the breaking up of families is horrible and is not about left or right, but right or wrong.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900022010/rep-mia-love-pushing-bill-to-end-horrible-separation-of-families-at-border.html
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Jana at Jade House on June 19, 2018, 04:25:14 pm
I just do not know who and what to listen to and believe.  Separation of children from parents crossing illegally is not a new thing.  Children who are alone need to be protected from villains. Some parents might even be rather relieved that their kids are getting as Curelom says 3 hots and a cot. because as horrible as it is to normal people,  where they came from is far far far from normal and safe.  In many ways these poor beleaguered folk are not unlike refugees that come knocking on Europe's door.

The truth is out there somewhere but emotions and opinion have certainly made it hard to discern. 
I am glad I don't have to make these decisions.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on June 19, 2018, 05:11:41 pm
Someone else who has "been there" sounds off. And he says, "At least in the internment camps..." - IOW, as awful as that was, & as egregious a violation of people's civil & basic human rights, there was a mitigating factor that these kids & parents don't have.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2018/06/19/at-least-during-the-internment-are-words-i-thought-id-never-utter-family-separation-children-border/

Most of us here are too young to personally remember either the Japanese-American internment or this next episode personally, but many of us have heard of it. I saw the movie ages ago, but had to look up the details to refresh my memory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis

Decades later, according to the Wikipedia story: "In May 2018, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau announced the Government of Canada would offer a formal apology in the country's House of Commons for its role in the fate of the ship's passengers." Although the folks at our border are not in the same kind of peril as the MV St. Louis passengers, will a future POTUS eighty years from now be making a similar apology?

You're right, Jana, it isn't easy. Where these folks came from might have been a real horror story, or else they wouldn't be making such extreme efforts to get into the U.S. knowing the risk of arrest & deportation. I think one thing that dismays many people (& even many of the ruling party) is the seemingly harsh & heartless way this was done, with Sessions, Nielsen, & Trump taking a completely letter-of-the-law approach without apparent attention to the human aspects. That, along with the idea that young kids have to be made to suffer for whatever their parents did.

The ruling party (at least those up for election this year) is starting to worry about the impact of widespread viewing of children bawling behind barbed wire on their electoral chances. That's the immediate, pragmatic concern, which is a big reason so many are distancing themselves from it. Some Republicans or conservatives (like Mia Love whom I quoted above, Ted Cruz, Jeb Bush, Susan Collins, Laura Bush, & even Franklin Graham & Trump's own wife) are adding more philosophical & humanitarian questions, which it appears do not bother Trump, Nielsen, & Sessions.

However this plays out over the summer, whatever your political inclinations are, I guarantee that you're going to see Democratic candidates showing not only images of Trump praising Kim Jong-un, courting Putin & China, calling third world countries ****holes, insulting legitimate world leaders, or equivocating about whether the Klan or neo-Nazis actually are evil - but also provocative picture of those children bawling behind barbed wire.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on June 19, 2018, 05:29:41 pm
Just coincidence - today is World Refugee Day.

http://www.un.org/en/events/refugeeday/
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on June 26, 2018, 11:51:27 am
Primary elections today in Utah, and the Republican party is disenfranchising voters. I don't need a civics lesson to understand how primary elections work. Here's the problem: In Utah county, there are only Republican candidates running for county sheriff. The winner of today's primary will become the new sheriff without going to the general election. However, I was told I can't vote, because I'm not registered as a Republican. I'm unaffiliated. That's never been a problem in any other state where I've lived and voted. But it's a problem in Utah.

The big sign right outside the polling place states that I have the right to vote in any election in my precinct. The affiliation box, right on the affidavit, states that party affiliation is OPTIONAL. The Democratic party does not require party affiliation in order to vote in primary elections. But, Republicans won't let you vote unless you're affiliated with their party. So, I don't get to vote for the county sheriff in this election, unless I change my affiliation to the Republican party. That doesn't seem right.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: JLM on June 26, 2018, 02:13:47 pm
Yup.  It was the Utah Republicans that drove me from the party too.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Jason on July 02, 2018, 12:08:14 am
I think it is common to only be allowed to vote for one party's candidates in an election. In Illinois you chose either a Republican or Democratic ballot. If you choose neither, you can vote only on the non-partisan things, but not for a party's candidates. Washington state used to have an open ballot where the top 2 vote getters were then placed on the general election ballot, but that was deemed illegal by the courts, being argued that people would cross over and vote for spoilers. Now you have to pick which party you want to vote for. The primary system is supposed to be about picking a party's candidate to put on the ballot, but the parties are "kind enough" to allow us to vote on which candidates they run. In Germany, I think you only vote for a party, and the party itself picks the candidates that go into office.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on July 02, 2018, 12:15:56 am
And I totally agree with the principle of primary elections.  The problem is when all the candidates for an office are from one party.  When their general election is a closed primary, then we have elected officials for whom many people did not get the chance to vote, because those voters didn't declare party allegiance.  That's wrong.  But it's an easy fix. When all the candidates are from the same party, they should be required to run in the general election instead of in the primary election. That way, all voters will have the opportunity to elect the person who will represent them.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on July 03, 2018, 11:47:01 pm
Thank you, Clarkston, Georgia.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/one-america-small-town-welcomes-thousands-of-refugees-with-southern-hospitality/ar-AAzxqJg?ocid=spartanntp
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: pnr on July 04, 2018, 11:39:06 am
Some states have laws that allow all people to vote in primaries where the outcome will be election because of no general election competition.   But if you start lobbying for this, make sure you also retain open primaries if there are write in candidates or straw candidates:  in my state candidates get friends or non-friend to get on the ballot to prevent the open primary, but they are not and don't intend to be serious candidates.  (It would help if open primaries were permitted whenever both candidates paid money as opposed to have gotten the required signatures, which no one does unless they cannot afford the filing fee, but absolutely do want people to elect them.)
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on July 05, 2018, 09:26:52 pm
Are all these kids security risks or victims of politics & hysteria?  :-\  ???

https://www.sfgate.com/news/world/article/AP-NewsBreak-US-Army-quietly-discharging-13052437.php
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on July 05, 2018, 09:33:57 pm
It's interesting that they haven't been labeled "security risks" until now.  I think military service is a great path to citizenship, and should be promoted more.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on July 05, 2018, 10:43:55 pm
I've always respected people who were not yet citizens but we were willing to serve in the military. No doubt some immigrants are security risks, but so are some natural-born life-long U.S. citizens. I'm afraid this is yet one more divisive measure designed to make people more mistrusting & hostile toward each other. Unfortunately, "Us vs Them" is the political tactic of the day, where once upon a time the goal for leaders in both parties was unity, cooperation, & working toward common goals. Now there isn't even a pretense.

As a native-born U.S. citizen, I sure miss America.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: pnr on July 06, 2018, 08:32:14 pm
They are apparently saying they are security risks, solely because the normal background checks (which are likely quite impossible to do in some countries) aren't done:  not because of anything they've FOUND in any background check.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on July 06, 2018, 11:01:13 pm
The Marquis de Lafayette is the best known foreign hero of the Revolutionary War. He trained soldiers, led them in battle, devised strategy, & recruited Native Americans to the colonists’ side. We all know he was born in France, & after American independence, he returned home & helped foment the revolution against the monarchy.

John Paul Jones, the “father of the U.S. Navy,” was born in Scotland. After the Revolution, he served in the Russian Navy. He had a checkered career and life after the Revolution & died in France but is now buried at the Naval Academy in Annapolis.

Thaddeus Kosciusko (anglicized), a native of Lithuania, was a military engineer who helped design fortifications as well as commanded troops. Like Lafayette, he returned home after serving in the Revolution & became a leader for reforms in his country.

Friedrich von Steuben was born in Prussia & served in the army there. He came to the colonies & helped train the Continental Army. One reason he left was home was harassment over the perception, now believed true, that he was homosexual. He lived in New York State for the rest of his life & is buried there.

Kasimir Pulaski, the “father of the U.S. Cavalry,” was born in Poland & originally fought against invaders of his own country. He expatriated himself to Paris where he met Benjamin Franklin who was serving as consul & advocate from the newly declared nation of the United States, & Franklin recruited him to serve in the Continental Army. Pulaski was killed in battle & is buried in Savannah, Georgia.

Much of the money to pay for the Revolutionary War, including to pay the wages of some of the troops (including Kosciusko) came from Haym Salomon (anglicized), a Jewish banker born in Poland. He was not in the military but was arrested twice by the British as a suspected spy & once sentenced to death. He managed to evade the noose, died after the war & is buried in Philadelphia.

Eight soldiers born outside the U.S. were awarded the Medal of Honor for service in the Vietnam War. One Afghanistan veteran received it, & he would probably be suspect today because his mother was French-Algerian.

I hope we are not at a point in immigrant hysteria that we will strip these men of the honors they have received from the United States, disinter those who were buried here & dump them somewhere else, or posthumously demote them or give them an administrative discharge them from the U.S. military.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Jason on July 08, 2018, 01:48:08 am
That article gives no background rates of discharge. Has this increased or decreased recently? Is this consistent with general enlistment discharges? 40/10,000 is a rate of 0.4%, or 1 out of 250 that do not make it through. But are these accurate numbers? I saw an article that said that 7-14% of general enlistees drop out after boot camp, depending on the branch. So would this program be a bigger success than regular enlistment? Or is this comparing wrong things. This article is so frustrating, because it seems to leave out crucial information, but wants to paint a picture to disparage Trump. I think you need several levels of information before you can do that.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: cook on July 08, 2018, 02:35:20 am
You had one of ours too (and it seems quite a few other Finns in the US Army according to this article) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauri_T%C3%B6rni
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on July 08, 2018, 06:22:20 pm
This article is so frustrating, because it seems to leave out crucial information, but wants to paint a picture to disparage Trump. I think you need several levels of information before you can do that.

I'm not sure the intent of the article is to disparage Trump, although there's plenty aside from this issue to disparage him (and, to be fair, almost everyone in national leadership positions, where we are sorely lacking in quality). I think the notion of blanket discharges for military personnel simply because they are immigrants grates on most Americans' sense of fairness, equal opportunity, refraining from stereotyping, & judging people by the content of their character & not the color of their skin (or their birthplace, parents' names, or other factors not of their choosing).
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: JLM on July 08, 2018, 11:55:59 pm
One doesn't need to dig deep to find evil doings by Trump and his minions.  He brags about them on a daily basis.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on July 16, 2018, 03:23:56 pm
After antagonizing the countries we have to live next door to every day, & bashing allies that have been at America's side for decades, in some cases centuries, & have shed blood alongside American blood, now what does he do?

https://www.sfgate.com/news/politics/article/Lawmakers-call-Trump-s-performance-bizarre-13079081.php

"Bizarre" is only part of it.

One of a kind.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-sheds-all-notions-of-how-a-president-should-conduct-himself-abroad/ar-AAAaIuk?ocid=spartanntp
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on August 12, 2018, 02:05:48 am
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/why-can’t-trump-just-condemn-nazis/ar-BBLNsKt?ocid=spartanntp

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/omarosa-book-claims-trump-wanted-to-be-sworn-in-using-art-of-the-deal-instead-of-the-bible/ar-BBLNCJj?ocid=spartanntp

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/mormon-distaste-for-trump-could-hurt-gop-candidates-in-2018/ar-BBLE3O1?ocid=spartanntp
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: DerrellF on August 26, 2018, 12:04:52 am
Arizona's senior senator, John McCain, has died after a lengthy battle with brain cancer.  RIP.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on September 06, 2018, 03:06:44 am
What’s new on the fake news front?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/i-am-part-of-the-resistance-inside-the-trump-administration/ar-BBMVtbs?ocid=spartanntp

https://m.sfgate.com/news/politics/article/Anonymous-official-cites-Trump-amorality-in-NY-13207276.php

https://m.sfgate.com/news/politics/article/Trump-others-dispute-book-s-description-of-13205252.php

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-suggests-protesting-should-be-illegal/2018/09/04/11cfd9be-b0a0-11e8-aed9-001309990777_story.html?utm_term=.6792018e60a9&wpisrc=nl_az_most&wpmk=1
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on September 09, 2018, 01:00:48 am
Warning: I could ruin Canada. Stop ripping us off, Canada!

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/trump-warns-he-could-cause-the-‘ruination’-of-canada/ar-BBN1iZn?ocid=spartanntp
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on September 11, 2018, 04:34:48 pm
Most Americans were remembering today with a sense of respect & reflectiveness, or participating in service activities designed to honor those who lost their lives 17 years ago. Meanwhile ....

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/president-trump-criticized-for-behavior-as-nation-pays-tribute-to-9-11-victims-on-17th-anniversary-of-attack/ar-BBNbRbT?ocid=spartandhp

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Trump-starts-off-today-s-9-11-observance-with-a-13220650.php

https://www.sfgate.com/technology/businessinsider/article/Trump-had-an-unusual-reaction-to-9-11-just-hours-12189600.php
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on September 11, 2018, 09:42:16 pm
Threatening Canada?  CANADA!  Wha...???

In the mid-term election, I'm voting for anyone...ANYONE...regardless of party, who will seek to block Trump at every available opportunity.  If we can't impeach, then we can gridlock. 

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2018/09/07/trump-warns-he-could-cause-the-ruination-of-canada.html (https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2018/09/07/trump-warns-he-could-cause-the-ruination-of-canada.html)
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on September 25, 2018, 08:37:15 pm
So far, we’ve somehow avoided the subject of the Kavanaugh Supreme Court nomination. Maybe everyone is too burned out on politics or too disgusted with the state of political discourse that no one feels like talking about.

But I just happened to see this, which might interest a few neighbors here.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/mormon-women-demand-lds-senators-halt-kavanaugh-hearings-so-misconduct-allegations-can-be-investigated/ar-AAADJ31?ocid=spartanntp
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on September 25, 2018, 09:20:29 pm
Quote
“If these accusations are proved false, an investigation will prevent harm to the court’s legitimacy. If they are true, then Judge Kavanaugh must not be confirmed,”

True dat.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: JLM on September 26, 2018, 12:05:29 am
Hatch just needs to shut up and go home.  He is the biggest embarrassment to the church right now.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: pnr on September 26, 2018, 09:26:55 am
Quote
“If these accusations are proved false, an investigation will prevent harm to the court’s legitimacy. If they are true, then Judge Kavanaugh must not be confirmed,”

I think it is worth a discussion as to whether something that happened at age 17 should derail the rest of one's life.   If it had been reported then, it would likely have been handled within a juvenile system that is complete private.   

I absolutely believe that what she described happened to her (though I could see the hand over her face as trying to stop the noise as much as her perception that the perp knew what he was doing and wanted to not get caught.)  What I don't know is whether it was him.  I would think it was, but she reports the total culture of drinking, and doesn't know whether she followed him upstairs or was already upstairs or where it was.  (I am a rape survivor and I understand how she wouldn't recall the date.)   

I don't think I'd have disqualified him f he had said he didn't believe he did it, that he had made a choice to be celibate (he has said he was a virgin into his 20's, and he was a Catholic), that his friend Judge had never mentioned it having happened, but then Judge was usually plastered when he was.  But there are times when he couldn't remember what he'd done when he sobered up, so he literally doesn't know if he was there and what he might have done.  And that he was so very sorry (embarrassed and ashamed)  if he in fact did what she says he did.

I am troubled by the 15-17 year old gap:  our kids need to stop sexual contact with younger kids, with less worldly kids, with kids who may be trading sex for affection or belonging, and that is tough to do when the world is talking about women owning their bodies and nature said to do whatever one pleases.  For sure 30 years ago, even the laws would not have made something of that.   

I don't know that we will ever know what exactly happened.   But I am more inclined to see his failure to own that he doesn't really know as what disqualifies him for the seat, not the original sin.  I say we have the hearing (what would an FBI investigation do?).  And see whether 50 percent plus Pence wants him there, and if not move on to approve the next nominee (which should not be held up by Democrats).
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: AndrewR on September 26, 2018, 10:34:29 am
How is anyone supposed to investigate something that happened at a party, in a house, that long ago?

It is preposterous. I don't know if it happened or not. However, if he is unfit to serve because of something he did when he was 15, then he is also unfit to serve as a Judge in the lower courts. So, all his hearings should be investigated too. Right?

If any US Judge, in any court, ever lied should they be removed from office because they are not trust worthy? But wait, virtually every child on the planet has lied at some point.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Jason on September 26, 2018, 11:31:44 am
Stories like this are rarely so obvious that there is a camera showing what happened, so we must rely on memory. Memory is fickle, and enough time has passed that one can reasonably question any account. But the incident would have potentially had the biggest impact on the victim, so memory would likely be most reliable for her. But even then, some things would be hazy, so it is not unreasonable that exact date and place are forgotten. Think of Joseph Smith being accused of making up his first vision because he didn't remember all of the peripheral details when writing down his experience years later. This doesn't maker her accusation true or false, just that we shouldn't dismiss it because it lacks all of the details we would like. The lack of corroborating testimony is problematic. Character witnesses are nice, but do not prove this incident didn't happen, as "we never suspected he had a dark side" could easily happen. Probably the 2 most important character witnesses are from the 2 women whom he dated. That he wasn't aggressive toward them is informative.

I do not think the Democrats have been fair to this lady. They have been using her as a political tool. Holding onto this claim for months and only releasing it after the regular investigative process had completed and the vote was days away is very indicative of their known plan to do whatever it took to delay and disrupt the confirmation process. They leaked her story when she had asked them to keep it confidential. And they are not being consistent in their application of who is disqualified for these types of allegations and proven transgressions.

I do not like President Trump's responses. His first responses were fine, but that is not what anyone will remember. 

Otherwise, I think the Republican Senators have been very measured and accommodating in their response.

The second allegation  has more problems to validate it. If I understand the story correctly, she spent a week calling up friends trying to remember if it was Judge Kavenaugh or someone else who purportedly had the bad behavior. That type of memory is ripe for implanting wrong ideas.

Does this represent his underlying philosophy on violence against women, or does the next 30+ represent it. There are those that say his denial that this happened is the biggest problem, but how it is described he can sincerely believe it did not happen and not be a liar.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Hobbes on September 26, 2018, 02:24:31 pm
A few points:

Denying someone a seat of the SCOTUS does not constitute irreparable harm, and a nominee does not have the right to the "reasonable doubt" due process qualifications that a defendant in a criminal trial does.

As PNR points out, the crime(s) is (are) one thing and very serious, but lying about them under oath during the nomination is another.  Even if the crimes are forgivable due to age the lying is not.

There are multiple corroborations to both stories (apparently there are some for the third, but they haven't come forward yet so no knowing if that's the case or not).  In the second case, where the woman took time to make sure she was remember correctly, there are people who were on the floor at the time who confirm that not only did that happen but that people were yelling that Kavanaugh was doing exactly what she described him doing.  These corroborations were obtained independently from the woman who made the accusation.

Republicans have not, in my opinion, acted one way or another about this.  People like Flake and Murkowski have said they take this seriously, want to hear from everyone and want to carefully consider the evidence.  Others like McConnell have described this as a "hiccup" and guaranteed that Kavanaugh would be confirmed no matter what Ford said or didn't say or whatever other accusations come forward. Trump (also a republican) has said since she didn't report it as a teenager it couldn't have happened.

What doesn't make sense to me is that there are plenty of conservative, qualified candidates that could fill this seat.  Why stick with Kavanaugh?  It's starting to become a time issue for purely political reasons, but it wasn't at first.  His nomination could've been pulled and someone else replaced him and confirmed before the midterms. These are very serious, very credible allegations of sexual assault from a potential SCOTUS justice.  Maybe they aren't true, but why not skip him (where his punishment is to continue in his lifetime appointment as a federal judge) and put someone on the court who doesn't have this baggage?
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on September 26, 2018, 08:06:40 pm
When men came forward with allegations of sexual abuse by Catholic priests which had happened 30 years before, there was public outrage.  Nobody ridiculed those men. When men came forward with allegations of sexual abuse by Jerry Sandusky at Penn State which happened 30 years ago, there was public outrage. Nobody ridiculed those men.  This case is not different just because the accusers are female and the abuser is a political nominee.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Palmon on September 26, 2018, 11:16:14 pm
I haven't read the thread but of course, you can't miss the allegations. He has already had 6 FBI aggressive background checks. If those background checks that were actively looking for things that would disqualify him for his judicial seats and missed these horrendous assaults - how does anyone expect this same FBI will find anything now?
It appears that Maryland does not have a statute of limitations for sexual assaults - why haven't there been any legal investigations and charges filed?
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Hobbes on September 27, 2018, 09:32:50 am
I haven't read the thread but of course, you can't miss the allegations. He has already had 6 FBI aggressive background checks. If those background checks that were actively looking for things that would disqualify him for his judicial seats and missed these horrendous assaults - how does anyone expect this same FBI will find anything now?
It appears that Maryland does not have a statute of limitations for sexual assaults - why haven't there been any legal investigations and charges filed?

Because the FBI didn't know to look for them when they did the previous checks.  Though I'm not part of the group that thinks a FBI investigation would clean this all up so take that for what it's worth.

And there haven't been any legal investigations or charges filed because there's strong disincentive for women to report sexual abuse.  Dr. Ford is a prime example: she finally does speak out because (according to her) she can't bear the idea of the person that tried to rape her getting a seat on the SCOTUS and she receives death threats, has to vacate her home and she and her family have to go into hiding.

I'm not saying I know these things happened, I'm saying the lack of legal accusations isn't a very good indicator of if they did or not. A very small percentage of those who experienced sexual abuse report it, and that includes rape or attempted rape.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Hobbes on September 27, 2018, 11:44:41 am
I don't know if anyone else is watching the hearing, but it's pretty heart-wrenching to hear Dr. Ford describe her experience and how it's impacted her life.  It's makes a pretty strong case that these actions are/would be disqualifying even without the lying about them later.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: pnr on September 28, 2018, 05:24:20 pm
I saw Kavanaugh's equally heartrenching denials (though his answers to questions were less impressive (otoh so were the questions).   I believe both of them.   Of course they both cannot be right.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Iggy on September 28, 2018, 07:03:35 pm
I saw Kavanaugh's equally heart wrenching denials (though his answers to questions were less impressive (otoh so were the questions).   I believe both of them.   Of course they both cannot be right.

Yes they both can - Dr Ford probably was sexually assaulted, some time during the summer of 1982 and in some house other than her own - BUT not by Judge Brett Kavanaugh.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on September 28, 2018, 07:58:58 pm
I agree, pnr.  They're both convincing.  So I guess it comes down to motivation and method:  Who has the stronger incentive to lie and happens to be a better actor?
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Palmon on September 28, 2018, 08:12:43 pm
Eyewitnesses do make mistakes. - It's worth watching.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsBplRi1PfA
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on September 28, 2018, 08:16:57 pm
When I was seven years old, I was playing baseball in a vacant lot with some boys from my neighborhood. I was playing catcher. The boy who was batting took a step back at the same time he was bringing the bat back. He hit me so hard in the nose that he broke the bridge of my nose and almost knocked me unconscious.  Although I was delirious with pain, and everything around me seemed to swirl in and out of focus, I know exactly who hit me, who ran away afraid at all the blood, and who helped me to stagger home.  That trauma happened 44 years ago, and I can picture the incident clearly today, even though I could barely stand up at the time.  You don't forget trauma like that.  So, I'm not buying the whole, "Yeah, she was sexually assaulted, but it wasn't him," spin.  When she says it was him, I believe her.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Palmon on September 28, 2018, 09:11:42 pm
Roper, watch the video. This woman's experience is least worth considering.
This woman was raped when she was 22, at knifepoint. She memorized everything about the face the man raping her so that she could make sure he went to prison. And he did. He was sentenced to 100 years in prison and served 11. That was when he was exonerated because of a DNA test. She knew without a doubt that this was her rapist and yet, he wasn't.
Memories are failable. And they are also malleable. Even if you are a professional whatever. True for both Kavanaugh and Dr. Ford.
 
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on September 28, 2018, 10:33:03 pm
Anger is the last defense of the guilty.  I remember learning that in a criminal justice class way back when I was a sophomore in college.  The use of anger and misdirection (accusing the democrats, in Kavanaugh's case) are well researched and documented in psychology as defense mechanisms against guilt, fear, and shame.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on September 28, 2018, 11:19:01 pm
Palmon, I watched the video. Thank you for sharing it.  I understand that eyewitnesses can make mistakes and that memories are malleable.  If Ford v. Kavanaugh was a criminal case, there would be a more stringent burden of proof and higher standards of evidence for the prosecution, and the expectation of "innocent until proven guilty" for the defense.  This is a political nomination with a confirmation hearing. Pending the results of an investigation, their testimonies are what we have to go on. Given that, I believe Ford. 
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: AndrewR on September 29, 2018, 04:02:09 am
"but it's pretty heart-wrenching to hear Dr. Ford describe her experience and how it's impacted her life"

It is, so why did this professional women, leave it so long to come forward. This man may now be on the brink of the highest place he can go in his career. However, he has been serving for many years in an almost as important place. Should she not have alerted authorities sooner?

Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: AndrewR on September 29, 2018, 04:30:36 am
This is interesting.

https://www.facebook.com/Breitbart/videos/316115425635280/UzpfSTc4MjY0Mzg1MjoxMDE1NjE0NzE5MzczMzg1Mw/ (https://www.facebook.com/Breitbart/videos/316115425635280/UzpfSTc4MjY0Mzg1MjoxMDE1NjE0NzE5MzczMzg1Mw/)
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: pnr on September 29, 2018, 02:07:49 pm
Quote
The use of anger and misdirection (accusing the democrats, in Kavanaugh's case) are well researched and documented in psychology as defense mechanisms against guilt, fear, and shame.

And you don't think that anger as the result of being falsely accused isn't the expected reaction to that?   (Not to mention that there's been much published recently about scientific studies that didn't actually find what they claimed to find, and that left out data that would have impacted the results.)
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on September 29, 2018, 02:18:50 pm
Falsely accused?  We need an impartial investigation to determine that.

Republicans are scared that they're going to lose the majority in the senate during the mid-term elections. That's why they're denying an FBI investigation and trying to fast-track Kavanaugh.  I'm amazed at the political contortions they're going through to discredit Dr. Ford.  Well, maybe not amazed. "Revolted" might be a better word. Dr. Ford is not on trial, here.  This is a job interview for Kavanaugh.

In reply to the "timing" argument: I believe Dr. Ford addressed that quite well the several times she was asked the same question in various forms.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on September 29, 2018, 10:35:47 pm
When men came forward with allegations of sexual abuse by Catholic priests which had happened 30 years before, there was public outrage.  Nobody ridiculed those men. When men came forward with allegations of sexual abuse by Jerry Sandusky at Penn State which happened 30 years ago, there was public outrage. Nobody ridiculed those men.  This case is not different just because the accusers are female and the abuser is a political nominee.
In terms of the abhorrence of the deeds, & the damage done to the victims, it isn't different. However, I think there is a difference in perception & response, maybe more so among men (not generalizing about 100% of men, but I think many have this mindset).

Too many male adults still have the "boys will be boys" attitude about youthful boy-girl "escapades" (some of which are actually just that if everyone involved is a sober, consenting adult, while others are more serious).

OTOH, many men have a deep aversion & horror of homosexual molesting. In many cases, I think it goes to their insecurities about their own sexual identity, inclinations, or fear of being emasculated - and what could be more emasculating than being overpowered & violated by another guy?

In the case of Kavanaugh & the accusations by several women, my jury is still out about who is being truthful, who is not being truthful, & who truly believes they are being truthful. It may be a mixture on the part of all involved, because some of these events happened decades ago. Both Judge Kavanaugh & Professor Ford seem like what we would call pillars of the community, upstanding citizens who have done much good in the world, not the kind of people you would think would lie for no reason at all. So if one is lying, or both are, we have to ask what their motive would be. Who has more to lose or more to gain from the truth being concealed? I don't know the answer to that.

As Roper said, this isn't a trial. When we talk about the constitutional right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty, that applies to people charged with crimes who have a right to a trial by a jury of their peers, & could face sentencing for a felony if convicted. No one is facing that here. In a job interview, as Roper calls this, there is no right to the presumption of innocence, & no one has a burden to prove anyone's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt to a moral certainty. All the employer needs is a reasonable presumption, excluding bias based on race, ethnicity, religion, etc., that this person is not a good candidate for the position.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Taalcon on September 29, 2018, 11:14:03 pm
To consider in regards to his credibility, IE, can he be shown to be honest and forthright, under oath,  in key things about his own past that can easily be shown to be correct or incorrect? It doesn't look great.

 This analysis is worth considering, exploring his own under-oath testimony.

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/09/how-we-know-kavanaugh-is-lying
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: AndrewR on September 29, 2018, 11:21:52 pm
Quote
In a job interview, as Roper calls this, there is no right to the presumption of innocence, & no one has a burden to prove anyone's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt to a moral certainty.

Except that is isn't just a job interview. If he fails to get this job he will also, almost certainly, no longer be fit for any legal job. He will be forced into retirement on the word of an accuser. With no trial, no conviction, and nothing than the testimony of one person.

I don't know if he did it, maybe there should be a trial. But there IS reasonable doubt - I would think.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Hobbes on September 30, 2018, 12:40:30 am
He has a lifetime appointment as a federal judge. Why do you think he have to resign and find a new job? Politically, there's zero chance he gets impeached by this congress...

[When I reread that it sounded accusatory. Sorry, I'm honestly asking]
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: LMAshton on September 30, 2018, 04:13:19 am
"but it's pretty heart-wrenching to hear Dr. Ford describe her experience and how it's impacted her life"

It is, so why did this professional women, leave it so long to come forward. This man may now be on the brink of the highest place he can go in his career. However, he has been serving for many years in an almost as important place. Should she not have alerted authorities sooner?

I've told people/reported some of those who sexually assaulted me. My mother didn't believe me and refused to do anything about it. When I tried reporting to cops, they refused to take a statement - they didn't believe me. When I told a boss, I was told to get over it. I was criticized and it was blamed on how I dressed, although in one case, it was because I always wore pants, so my co-workers assumed I was a lesbian, so somehow this made me a target. I was mocked and ridiculed. It was assumed that I must be asking for it somehow.

In talking to other women about their sexual assaults, they've had pretty close to the exact same experience. Cops are reluctant to take reports. Parents do nothing. Other adults in authority do nothing. Bosses tell us to get over it. No one wants to actually do anything.

Why on earth would she or any other woman make a statement? It's a grindingly difficult and emotionally taxing uphill battle, and we are conditioned from a very young age to not make waves.

Stop asking women why we don't report. We keep telling men, but the men aren't listening. We tell this same thing over and over and over again. Most women get it. Most women have been through it. Try listening to us.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on September 30, 2018, 06:27:34 pm
Laurie, thank you so much for sharing your experience.

It's unconscionable that 10 men on the Senate Judiciary Committee couldn't muster the confidence to question Dr. Ford with dignity and respect. They had to bring in a female prosecutor to do their jobs for them.

It's also unconscionable that so many women have posted things like this, which showed up in my FB feed linked to one of my friends: "Pray for the Kavanaugh family. I hope he makes it. I find it hard to believe this Ford woman. She was 15 yrs old doesn’t have any witnesses to back her story."  This was from a mom with children.  And many other women liked it and posted similar comments.

I still consider myself fairly conservative.  I have many conservative values.  The Republican party, however, has abandoned true conservative values over the past several years. The election of Donald Trump proved that the Republican party has lost its mind.  The Kavanaugh hearings proved that the Republican party has sold its soul. 
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Palmon on October 01, 2018, 12:01:41 am
I'm going to make these comments and then leave.

1. There are a lot of strong emotions on each side. There is no evidence and yet our beliefs about what happened seems to be drawing out the worst in many of us. Both parties and their families are being threatened in most vile ways. I pray that they will all survive. And yes, I think it has gotten to that point. And I pray our nation will, too.

2. I absolutely hate the label 'victim.'  To keep 'victim'  as part of your identity makes you weak. Women are anything but weak. Women are strong and in my opinion, we have always been stronger than men.

3. I also hate the term "survivor". Everybody 'survives' life and sometimes life is really nasty. For me to say I am a cancer 'survivor' is a ridiculous comparison to someone that has been fighting stage 4 lung cancer for the last 10 years (my BiL). Yet, I had cancer and I'm alive - that makes me a survivor, right?  Sorry, no. Those that truly have to fight for survival - those are the survivors.

In another context, 'Survivor' also puts on par some of the "me too" accusations - 'he touched my bootie when he walked by', blah blah blah,  with women who have truly suffered devastating attacks, such as Laurie.

If everyone is a victim and a survivor - then it means nothing.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on October 01, 2018, 03:43:58 am
I've told people/reported some of those who sexually assaulted me. My mother didn't believe me and refused to do anything about it. When I tried reporting to cops, they refused to take a statement - they didn't believe me. When I told a boss, I was told to get over it. I was criticized and it was blamed on how I dressed, although in one case, it was because I always wore pants, so my co-workers assumed I was a lesbian, so somehow this made me a target. I was mocked and ridiculed. It was assumed that I must be asking for it somehow….

Laurie, it can’t have ever gotten any easier to talk about this, so thank you for being willing to share. While I have never been the victim of an actual rape or violent sex crime, or child molesting, I along with probably a large majority of females have had experiences like flashing, workplace sex harassment, or being groped on public transit. I can’t imagine how traumatic it is to have a genuinely violent crime perpetrated against you.

The few details you gave explain why those who experience sexual assaults, molestation, or sexual harassment, are often so reluctant to report. With a long history of sexual assault victims being disbelieved, dismissed, or told they were at fault, why would anyone else want to put themselves through the same ordeal?
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on October 01, 2018, 08:38:14 am
Kavanaugh lied under oath about the extent of his drinking.

Chad Luddington is a professor at North Carolina State University. Ludington said in the statement he often drank with Kavanaugh when they were classmates, and said Kavanaugh had played down "the degree and frequency" of his drinking in his testimony. Ludington said he often saw Kavanaugh "staggering from alcohol consumption," and said he often became "belligerent and aggressive" while drinking. Ludington said in his statement he witnessed Kavanaugh throw a beer in a man's face once for making a semi-hostile remark, "starting a fight that ended with one of our mutual friends in jail." "It is truth that is at stake," Ludington said in a statement. "and I believe that the ability to speak the truth, even when it does not reflect well upon oneself, is a paramount quality we seek in our nation's most powerful judges."

https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/01/politics/yale-kavanaugh-drinking/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/01/politics/yale-kavanaugh-drinking/index.html)
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Iggy on October 01, 2018, 12:02:08 pm
Nowhere in this statement was he put under oath of penalty of law. It was just a statement to a newspaper.

Let's wait and see what the unbiased FBI investigation finds out. Oh, and by the way, Ford never claimed she was raped, just that a man was on top of her grinding his hips into her, that they both were fully clothed.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: JLM on October 01, 2018, 01:23:50 pm
Raped?  No.  Sexually assaulted and battered? Yes.

For me the biggest issue is his lack of ownership of his past behavior.  I'd be ok if he said, "When I was young and stupid, I was young and stupid.  Although I don't remember this incident, if I did do such a thing I am truly sorry and ask for forgiveness.  I hope I am a bette person now than I was then." 

But no, instead he has tried to paint himself as some besieged saint who never did wrong.  His lack of self empathy, his distortion of facts and his sense of entitlement to the position are huge red flags.  He is like Bill Clinton and Nixon in many ways, and will tarnish SCOTUS like Clinton and Nixon tarnished the presidency.  He is unfit and should be voted down.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Taalcon on October 01, 2018, 01:37:04 pm
Bingo.

Makes me wonder if his wife was told and led to believe one version of his past, and that's the version he's sticking to, in the face of the recollection of everyone else, including his own yearbook entries.

I'm willing to believe he genuinely does not recall assaultingFord. But he is repeatedly denying, under oath, that he participated in events and locations and actions surrounding such a culture that all the evidence seems to clearly point that he very much did.

 It's not a good look for anyone, but especially not someone being considered for one of the highest and most important posts in the land.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on October 01, 2018, 10:17:54 pm
We can continue talking about previous topics, but I wanted to share this wonderful story of love & affection while it was still timely. Our (or somebody’s) president is involved in a touching affair of the heart.  <3  <3  <3

https://www.sfgate.com/news/politics/article/Trump-on-Kim-Tough-talk-and-then-we-fell-in-13269453.php

Regardless of what he actually meant - which he might not know since he so often just flaps his jaws without thinking - can anyone imagine the fallout if FDR had said he and “Benny” Mussolini had fallen in love, or JFK had said he & Fidel had exchanged great letters & become cozy, or Obama or either of the Bushes had spoken so glowingly of Khadafy or Osama Bin Ladin? But we know DT is fickle. Tomorrow he could be shifting his affections to Putin or Duterte or one of the other “tough guys” that he thinks personify the manly qualities he desperately craves to be associated with.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on October 03, 2018, 01:27:24 am
We don’t know for sure if she is a victim, or if he is, or who actually did what. But a decent person does not mock or taunt even a POSSIBLE victim. If there is a chance that someone was wronged or harmed, the last thing any decent human being does is pile on. I have tried to refrain from having a derisive attitude toward either of them since I don’t know for sure what happened, & I get it that this has been tough for both – although I can make some judgments based on both of their statements & demeanor before the Judiciary Committee. But I hafta agree with Ms. Ford’s attorney that what DT did is totally putrid.

https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/Trump-mocks-Dr-Christine-Blasey-Ford-testimony-kav-13276611.php

And as long as we’re on the subject of The Don ...

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Takeaways-From-The-Times-Investigation-Into-13275938.php

No one is perfect, & everyone has messed up. Some people mess up over & over & over, & they do it deliberately, for personal gain, & they show no remorse or empathy or sympathy or even feigned concern for anyone but themselves, & they delight in calling out everyone else’s mistakes & misdeeds when they have a big fat mote stuck in their own eyeball. This tax story is just one more straw on the pile. Yesterday it was cozying with Kim Jong-un. Feuding with allies. Treating his own staff & cabinet members like ****. And so on, you name it. The day before, & the week before, & the week before that ... it goes on & on.

No other president of the United States, regardless of party, would have survived half of these fiascos. The Bushes, Obama, Clinton, Reagan, Carter, Nixon, all had their flaws, & some had lots, but now, I would gladly take almost any of them back if I could. The one thing I can say about all of them is that they would do their damnedest to keep America & the world at peace, & that I could sleep at night knowing that if they did take us to war, it wouldn't be out of rashness, stupidity, personal pique, egotism, or toxic machismo.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Jason on October 03, 2018, 02:31:50 am
Kavanaugh lied under oath about the extent of his drinking.

Chad Luddington is a professor at North Carolina State University. Ludington said in the statement he often drank with Kavanaugh when they were classmates, and said Kavanaugh had played down "the degree and frequency" of his drinking in his testimony. Ludington said he often saw Kavanaugh "staggering from alcohol consumption," and said he often became "belligerent and aggressive" while drinking. Ludington said in his statement he witnessed Kavanaugh throw a beer in a man's face once for making a semi-hostile remark, "starting a fight that ended with one of our mutual friends in jail." "It is truth that is at stake," Ludington said in a statement. "and I believe that the ability to speak the truth, even when it does not reflect well upon oneself, is a paramount quality we seek in our nation's most powerful judges."

https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/01/politics/yale-kavanaugh-drinking/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/01/politics/yale-kavanaugh-drinking/index.html)
This characterization of his drinking is contradicted by many of Kavanaugh's other college classmates. Even the throwing of the "beer" in another man's face is wrong. Another man at a bar was aggressive toward Kavanaugh and the report is that Kavanaugh threw ice at the man, not beer. Seems to be another false report. Kavanaugh was not arrested and whatever happened was not serious enough to warrant further investigation.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Jason on October 03, 2018, 02:45:40 am
After reading Rachel Mitchell's report, I now find Dr. Ford's account far less compelling.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on October 03, 2018, 08:37:19 am
I dunno, Jason.  There are many more reports of former classmates and friends that have surfaced over the past two days--reports which state Kavanaugh drank to excess and became aggressive. And the research is extensive on alcohol consumption and the inability to remember. I'm inclined to believe that Kavanaugh's memory of the night in question is even more unreliable than Ford's.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Hobbes on October 03, 2018, 09:02:02 am
After reading Rachel Mitchell's report, I now find Dr. Ford's account far less compelling.

Huh, that's surprising to me.  Her report read to me as a very partisan document that didn't address how a normal prosecutor would handle a victim nor address the lack of investigation (saying there's not enough evidence to bring charges without acknowledging most of the investigation into other witnesses or evidence didn't happen seem pretty ingenious). But perhaps this is more relevant: How we Know Kavanaugh is Lying (https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/09/how-we-know-kavanaugh-is-lying).

What's frustrating is that we keep getting more evidence through the media about this case.  Most of it is damaging to Kavanaugh and supportive of Dr. Ford, but by no means all the evidence runs that way.  The GOP held a seat open for a year so they could get someone they want on the bench: it seems pretty cynical to now declare that they can't take two or three weeks to really investigate all this stuff. And I continue to say I don't understand why not even from a political, cynical perspective.  If there is more condemning evidence against Kavanaugh it's obviously going to come out and then they're going to be the party that put an attempted rapist or worst on the highest court in the land. And if there's evidence that supports his claims (and they're certainly claiming they believe he's innocent of all charges) then wait a couple weeks to either find that evidence, or show as conclusively as possible that it doesn't exist.

I'm glad Senator Flake changed his mind and force the rest of the party to call for a FBI investigation, but I'm less than impressed by what they've been allowed to investigate and how much time they've been given to do it.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Iggy on October 03, 2018, 02:46:00 pm
In my humble, female aged 66 years old opinion ANY reports from the media should be tossed out with the daily garbage.

Back in 1983 when I was a new accounts teller at my local bank, I was accused of showing publicly a clients check that paid for a gambling establishment in town. Establishment actually means gaming tables in one of the taverns in town.

I did no such thing, and I would never do such a thing. I took my oath with the bank Dead Serious. BUT, without a *hearing* my employment was terminated. For 2 years I attempted to find an attorney to represent me and fight it. Each attorney I contacted couldn't because of Conflict of Interest. Even the attorney's in a 150 mile radius. Finally I had to drop it and settle for working at just a job and not a career.

10 years later I met a man as he was sitting alone in the local lounge, he always sat there day after day for hours, nursing a brandy w/a coffee chaser, and writing in steno books after steno books. Finally I went over, sat down and asked him what he was doing. He was a writer. No, he had never published. He and his wife were retired school teachers. He had taught language arts & journalism to high school students. They were from a large city 150 miles away, and were fast friends with an attorney there.

Cut to the chase ~ they had heard of my story from this attorney. So they came to my town to ferret out the real scoop of the story, and fell in love with the area & moved permanently here. Boy Howdy did they get the story. But not from me or from my then husband, but from the gambling table owner's rival.

We met every early evening, after I got off work, and we talked. It took him nearly 4 months to get me to tell him my version. BUT in the meantime he had sent the other version of what happened to the local newspaper and my name, reputation and honesty were smeared all over again. I lost my job too.

Had he used his real name and not a nom de plume, I would have known it was him. It was only after I had accosted the gaming table owner at that same lounge in a drunken rage that I found out about my writer friend, and the REAL story. Yep, I was a very inactive member of the church AND an imbiber of strong spirits then. BUT I wasn't so drunk I didn't know what I was doing & saying & I remembered it LONG after it had happened.

Three days later in the gaming table owners own home, we all met. And the story was revealed. Took two weeks of such meetings at 2 hours each meeting. The writer got his story, I found out who *set me up* as the fall guy, and the why.

Why didn't the gaming tables owner come forward sooner? He didn't know until 4 years after I was fired. By then the statute of limitations was well into effect (2 year).

The writer got the entire story plus what I had gone through (emotional, mental, financial anguish). What the gaming tables owner went through and he also did some honest deep digging about the rival and the why behind his setting me up. Then he went to our local bi-weekly newspaper to have the entire story published and was turned down. Finally our once a month periodical agreed, and put the story in a 10 part series.

Yes, a writer finally told the true story - - but what I am getting here is this ~ ~ ~ NOT one of those people who were interviewed by the MEDIA in the Ford vs Kavanaugh case were under "Oath of Felony", or any Oath. Why did they finally surface and go to the MEDIA rather than an attorney who would then bring it to the Judaical Committee???

So much was done in an incorrect manner - back-arse-wards really - regarding this.

As a rape victim myself, and as a recovering abused wife, I really, really listened to both of the testimonies. The first time I didn't pray before hand. The second and yes third time I did. My discernment tells me that yes, Ms Ford was sexually molested at some time in the early 1980's and after she had been consuming alcohol. At least she believes that. BUT she really isn't sure it was Kavanaugh with or without his buddies.

It has been 48 years and I still remember in vivid detail my rape. Even to the way the rapist smelled. No I never saw his face. But in giving her testimony she READ the entire thing. She is a college graduate, a well educated woman, a Psychology Professor, and she had to READ her own personal account of that sexual abuse account. It was scripted.

As for Judge Brett Kavanaugh - he used what looked like hand written notes. Each page for a particular part of his testimony. He did not read his testimony in it's entirety. Yes he was mad. I was mad when I wrote out my testimony, and I didn't have the husband I have now to edit it. I would have NOT believed him had Judge Kavanaugh NOT be mad. It was Righteous Indignation mad. The drinking of water, the tongue pushing against his cheek and lower lip - those are ways to keep the tears of anger from bursting forth.

My gift of discernment tells me that he is telling the truth. As for him writing nearly everything down on calendars, so did I when I was in High School (9th -12th) grade, then not for 2 years, then again to date. I much preferred calendar books to the hang on the wall kind.

Why don't we hold judgement until the FBI finishes, and the results are given to the Judicial Committee and THEY make it public.

Note ~ why is only Kavanaugh's back ground been put under scrutiny and not Ford's? Both should be.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on October 03, 2018, 05:16:38 pm
ANY reports from the media should be tossed out with the daily garbage.
Without reports from the daily media, none of us would know what was going on in Washington or elsewhere in government. Public officials, especially politicians who we know aren’t very moral or ethical, would be even less cautious about what they did, how they misused public funds, whose rights they trampled on, or what they did in their daily routines that could affect billions of people all over the world.

The trouble is, most media are biased. Everyone knows that. Somewhere between Fox & CNN, very far from both, maybe the truth can be found. It’s up to us to decide where. And we have legitimate questions about the credibility of both Kavanaugh & Ford. Are one or both being entirely truthful based on their honest knowledge & recollections? Are one or both are lying at least some of the time? We need the FBI to do a thorough investigation & not be denied access to any potential information sources, & saying the FBI doesn’t have WH approval to interview specific witnesses is BS. Does your police or sheriff need the approval of mayors, supervisors, or council members to do an investigation & decide whom to interview? And in the case of employment background checks that are not criminal cases, does the mayor or governor need to approve any time the hiring agency wants to contact one of your former bosses, classmates, or neighbors?

If (& unfortunately, it seems more & more likely) we find that both Ford & Kavanaugh have been deceptive or evasive (or even downright untruthful), & have skeletons in their closets that are too big to sweep under the rug, then the question ceases to be about either of them as forthright or devious, honest or dishonest, ethical or unethical individuals. Then it is about what is at stake. This is not a criminal trial where a defendant’s freedom can be taken away & there is a burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt to a moral certainty. It’s about someone’s suitability to be a Supreme Court justice. If Ford turns out to be a bad apple, her university employers can decide what to do about her. If Kavanaugh turns out to be a bad apple, we the people are his potential employers & Congress is supposed to act on our behalf, & they will need to do what’s right.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Jason on October 03, 2018, 06:20:31 pm
Senator Flake made a deal with the Democrats for a 1 week limited investigation into then circulating allegations. Now the Democrats are changing their tune and want an endless investigation into anything that may come up. One of their presidential hopefuls has even stated that it doesn't matter if Judge Kavanaugh is not guilty, and on that I actually believe him. That does not sound like an honest arrangement, and I would hope that Senator Flake realizes that he has been manipulated.

Recently a previous boyfriend has come out and cast doubt on the veracity of many of the claims of Dr. Ford. I am sure more on that will be forthcoming.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Taalcon on October 03, 2018, 07:06:55 pm
Quote
One of their presidential hopefuls has even stated that it doesn't matter if Judge Kavanaugh is not guilty, and on that I actually believe him. That does not sound like an honest arrangement, and I would hope that Senator Flake realizes that he has been manipulated

This could be said of Senators on both sides of the aisle, because this HAS happened on both sides. This is messy.

It's clear that for many, Truth is not the object. A Win is.

That said, the investigation is clearly also not what Flake had in mind, because it appears that contrary to what was originally said, the WH -has- put some bizarre limitations and hindrances on the FBI investigation, which should raise serious questions as to its legitimacy, no matter what side you're on.

If you really want to exonerate Kavanaugh, truly believing there isn't something damaging to find, you wouldn't limit the scope of the investigation. An artificially partisan-limited investigation would NOT serve Flake's intended purposes. Trump getting involved in this way has ABSOLUTELY tainted the results. That is not what was wanted, and serves nobody looking for legitimacy.

If you have a week to do it, it shouldn't matter if more leads are followed than you'd like ... if the truth is really what you're after. I can only think of one reason to actively halt the gathering of more information, ordered by the Side who is most like not to benefit from a deeper dive, when a specific end-date is already specified.

This whole thing is a disaster.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on October 03, 2018, 08:30:35 pm
Roper's Theory of Evil in High Places:

Republicans in the federal government are terrified of Donald Trump.  He has shown his willingness from the beginning to remove anyone who disagrees with him. "You're fired!" When Dr. Ford's testimony came out, Republicans on the Senate Judiciary Committee felt they didn't have a choice. Ten men couldn't question her for fear of alienating their constituency. So they retained a female prosecutor to do it.  That way, if it all goes south, then they can claim, "We did the best we could to confirm the president's nominee." Hopefully, The Donald won't come after them.

Democrats in the federal government are terrified of Donald Trump. They pushed for an FBI investigation, knowing full well that the president, as chief executive of the legislative branch (and therefore the ultimate boss of the FBI) would shackle the investigation.  That way, they can appease their constituents, and if it all goes south, then they can claim, "We used the president's agency to investigate." Hopefully, The Donald won't come after them.

Both parties are to blame for the degradation of our government.  There has been such a resistance to compromise that the executive branch has steadily increased power and authority to force political agendas.

The real casualty in all of this is Dr. Ford. We have proven yet again, that when women come forward with testimony that they have been sexually abused, we won't believe them.

God help us survive the next two years.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: JLM on October 03, 2018, 11:58:15 pm
3 words.  Congressional term limits.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on October 04, 2018, 08:17:31 am
Or, move away from the two-party system where so many resources are wasted vilifying the other party.  If no party has a majority, then the focus becomes building consensus to address issues. Vote third party!
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on October 04, 2018, 11:48:45 am
As some of us keep saying, the Kavanaugh hearing is not a trial & it is not about proving guilt or presuming innocence as would be necessary in a court trial. It is about credibility & a candidate’s fitness for a job.

http://www.latimes.com/local/abcarian/la-me-abcarian-kavanaugh-investigators-20181004-story.html#nws=mcnewsletter

Trump & McConnell are sticking by Kavanaugh & insisting that the FBI report clears him

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/grassley-white-house-stand-by-kavanaugh-as-senate-reviews-fbi-report/ar-BBNUZsy?ocid=spartanntp

While some are suggesting the FBI was not allowed to do a thorough investigation, meaning Kavanaugh's supporters are relying on flawed reporting.

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/As-FBI-check-of-Kavanaugh-nears-its-end-probe-13279734.php

Who knows the actual truth? The end result of this mess is that whatever ultimately becomes of the nomination, none of us will ever know. Republican & Democratic politicians in the White House & the Senate, uninterested in what's best for America & motivated only by political agendas & winning at all costs, corrupted the process. Taalcon is right: “This whole thing is a disaster,” & Roper is right: “God help us survive the next two years.”

I’ve been deliberately voting against both of the corrupt, anti-American parties for some time, by seeking out good alternative candidates, not only in 2016 although the two major candidates made that a lot easier. One of the third-party people got my last presidential vote, & I would have voted for almost any of the alternatives over the deplorables that the major parties gave us. I plan to do the same in 2020, provided the Constitution is still in force & we are not under either a dictatorship or a junta of generals who decided enough is enough, & an election does occur.

Good people are out there, & they need more support from thinking voters, because as long as the corrupt, self-serving, unethical Democrats & Republicans control our political process, decent candidates have little chance. I think one of the last best hopes for the survival of our republic or democracy is the downfall of the two major parties, which have both perverted the concept of republic & democracy. They can't collapse a minute too soon.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on October 05, 2018, 05:31:40 pm
Collins & Flake have thrown in the towel, so it's all over but the bitter post-morteming, accusations, innuendos, & curious questions from people who wonder what was in the report that, in Warren's words, Senators were "muzzled" from discussing.

Someone is bound to tip off Wikileaks. And when whatever YKW they are keeping under wraps comes unraveled, the YKW will hit the fan.

And it could hit the fan again in November.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Palmon on October 06, 2018, 11:49:29 am
"Collins and Flake have thrown in the towel".
Collins did not 'Throw in the towel'.  I suggest you read the text of her hour-long speech.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/05/us/politics/susan-collins-speech-brett-kavanaugh.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/05/us/politics/susan-collins-speech-brett-kavanaugh.html)
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Jason on October 10, 2018, 01:50:38 pm
It has been leaked what was in the report that caused Senators Collins and Flake to make their final decision. FBI agent Jeff Blakely said, "After many follow-up visits and exhausting all possible leads, I feel that I must blame anesthesia". When reading that, both of them nodded and said, "ah, that makes sense."

(For those not familiar, anesthesia is blamed for nearly everything).
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on October 12, 2018, 11:51:11 pm
Anesthesia or amnesia?
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on October 12, 2018, 11:56:29 pm
Robert E. Lee may have had good leadership qualities & military skills (I don’t really know), & many people may admire his personal qualities – but honestly, how much more tone-deaf could a president of the United States be? I mean, we know Mussolini made the trains run on time, but would a POTUS praise him? (Wait – don’t answer that).

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-praises-robert-e-lee-during-ohio-rally/ar-BBOiYGL?ocid=spartanntp

Wait - there's more! He praised Robert E. Lee & then he told African-Americans to "honor" him with their votes. Too bad I already used the phrase "tone-deaf." Is there a superlative for it?

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Trump-calls-on-blacks-to-honor-him-with-votes-13304045.php
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Nottoc on October 14, 2018, 12:36:01 am
I read other sources. And it was clear that Trump was asking Black voters to honor the Republicans with their votes, not Robert E. Lee. Also, there are many that say from a strictly military point of view Robert E. Lee was an excellent general. Robert E. Lee was also a man of his time and how he was raised, and he believed blacks were less than human. They are distinct attributes of the man.

I haven't found an accurate replication of the speech, so I don't know the context of his remarks. However, a good business person can recognize a commendable quality in a person. Even if that person has a very bad understanding of some other aspect of life. Since, I don't know the context, the positive assumption is that Trump was recognizing a particular skill in a person that also happened to support an evil cause.

I recognize that this is similar to Reagan's "Killer Trees" speech. Which is largely recognized as a mistake. However, in this case, it seems to be a timing issue more than accuracy issue. Thus allowing the largely against Trump press machine to inaccurately report things like "Trump urges Blacks to Honor Robert E. Lee with a republican vote.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on October 14, 2018, 02:07:41 am
I wasn’t implying that trump asked black voters to honor Robert E. Lee. But to commend the CinC of the Confederate army for his positive qualities in the same speech that he asked for black votes was totally tone-deaf. I can't see any of his speech writers putting such words in his mouth, because they're too politically savvy to do that. I can only imagine it was trump's own thoughts because they show his level of insensitivity.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on October 25, 2018, 11:56:00 pm
Quote
"Let's get along. By the way, do you see how nice I'm behaving tonight? Have you ever seen this?"

IOW: I thought I would surprise you this time & try to act like a normal human being. It isn't my fault, but the fault of the fake-news media & the Democrats that makes me act like such an ******* so much of the time.
 
https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/The-instant-inevitable-cries-of-false-flag-13333266.php

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Trump-doubles-down-on-blaming-media-as-suspicious-13335406.php

https://www.sfgate.com/news/politics/article/As-political-strain-grows-pipe-bombs-target-13334728.php
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: pnr on October 26, 2018, 11:20:35 pm
Well it is factual that there were advocates urging people to join the caravans --- it now appears that they were local trying to embarrass their own Honduran president.   When people don't trust anyone (and there are a lot of people on all sides that don't these days), it is easy to get assume the worst of "the other".
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on October 31, 2018, 07:22:45 pm
I’ve been totally sick over the murder rampage in Pittsburgh – regular folks minding their own business, worshipping peacefully, welcoming an addition to their congregation like we do, struck down by a bigoted sociopath. Admittedly, I am partial to the Jewish people, but I’m sick at the idea that this could happen to any group in America. I’m sad & furious & frustrated about it. It’s been a sad, infuriating, frustrating few weeks in American political life, with the murder of the journalist Khashoggi & the bumbling response of public officials whose motivations we have every reason to distrust, the mail bombs (real or fake), & now this.

Those who read up on Church history know that last week was the anniversary of the notorious Missouri extermination order, the only such official act in U.S. history against a specific group of people. Until it was reversed in the 1970s, state law could have authorized any of us to be rounded up in St. Louis or Kansas City, or while visiting Liberty Jail or Adam-ondi-Ahman, & hauled off to the gallows. Not that it would happen, but under state law it could have. And folks in America are still targeted for religious reasons, not by official government action, but some in government positions are responsible for the hostility & antagonism that pollutes our public life & gives extremists permission to attack civilized institutions & values.

The Potus was incredulous that in this day & age, such an anti-Semitic terrorist act could happen. I can’t imagine anyone being surprised. After all, Charlotteseville was only about a year ago, with its flock of Klansmen & neo-Nazis. Of course, he did say it included some “very fine people,” so he may truly not get it that those bigots Want. Jews. Dead. The dismal state of public conversation in this country is a big cause of hate crimes. Not that Trump or any other politician “makes” anyone shoot up a synagogue – we know everyone has agency & is accountable for their acts. But fringe-dwellers who do these evil deeds are not whole in head or heart to begin with, so unlike those of us with normal minds & consciences, they are easily nudged over the edge. All it might take is the President of the United States calling the press the enemy of the people, or his rivals crazy, lunatics, crooked, or disgraceful, or an ethnic group rapists or invaders, & whether or not that’s true is irrelevant – no elected official should be using that kind of language. If your local mayor, police chief, or health director did, how long would the public tolerate it?

In a display of bull-in-china-shop stubbornness & total lack of sensitivity or empathy, he decided to go to Pittsburgh in the midst of the start of the victims’ funerals, after the mayor & many residents asked him not to, at least one victim’s family refused to meet with him, & no other local, state, or congressional leaders would join him … to “pay his respects.”

Reckless, inflammatory speech, calling people liars, weak, dumb, or crazy for disagreeing, publicly demeaning women, characterizing entire ethnic or cultural groups, threatening to ban Muslims, undermining the freedom of speech & press, offering emotional support & comfort to racists, & more – from the highest office in the land, emboldens some people to abandon the standards of decency, courtesy, & fairness that society needs. We don’t need to “Make America Great Again.” Thanks to a friend of mine for inspiring this new slogan. What we need is to make America OURS again.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/jewish-leaders-tell-trump-hes-not-welcome-in-pittsburgh-until-he-denounces-white-nationalism/ar-BBP2lEL?ocid=spartanntp

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/for-trump-dutiful-words-of-grief-then-off-to-the-next-fight/ar-BBP2tME?ocid=spartanntp

https://m.sfgate.com/opinion/article/Trump-finally-gets-the-shunning-he-deserves-13351284.php

And now, to top off a month of insanity, we have talk of Constitutional amendment by executive order.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on October 31, 2018, 08:51:54 pm
I listened to an NPR story today about a recent study showing how political party is now more divisive than race, gender, or any other difference in U.S. society.  :(
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: JLM on November 01, 2018, 10:41:38 am
Who ever runs again orangehead in 2020, be it primaries or the general, should use the slogan "Make America GOOD Again".
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on November 02, 2018, 10:42:18 pm
Where there is smoke, there isn’t always necessarily fire. But where there is a LOT of smoke, & it comes from a LOT of different places, & a LOT of people can see it & are worried about it … can we still say there isn’t any fire?

https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/Trump-black-people-too-stupid-vote-Michael-Cohen-13359022.php
https://www.npr.org/2018/10/31/662436272/trump-and-anti-semitism

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/opinions/george-washington-saw-america-as-a-safe-place-for-jews-trumps-america-isnt/2018/10/28/e21ea6e6-dade-11e8-b3f0-62607289efee_story.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/foreignpolicy.com/2018/10/31/trumps-divisive-speech-puts-the-first-amendment-at-risk-antisemitism-hate-speech-crimes-pittsburgh-shooting-synagogue-jews/amp/

 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/opinions/wp/2018/11/01/trumps-racist-ad-shows-how-low-republicans-have-sunk/?utm_term=.8f4076bf6bae
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Palmon on November 04, 2018, 08:29:26 pm
Many of you were concerned with the lack of thorough investigation during the Kavanaugh hearings. Here is a link to the 414 page summary of the investigation results released bt by the Senate Judiciary Committee today.  I'd be interested in your thoughts after you read the report yourselves - not the comments of what other people say about it.
[url]https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/press/rep/releases/senate-judiciary-committee-releases-summary-of-investigation-from-supreme-court-confirmation[url]
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on November 04, 2018, 10:59:21 pm
I’ll take a look at it, but not today, because it's the Sabbath, which shouldn't be ruined by the sordidness of politics. I’m skeptical about anything that comes from the mouth or pen of any Congressional committee or any member of Congress of either party, both of which are detestable, but I will concede that the crooked, dishonest, corrupt scoundrels are entitled to the benefit of a doubt.  :D
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Iggy on November 05, 2018, 04:48:16 pm
I read most of it. Just as I thought, Kavanaugh is proved innocent.

I also have a *gut feeling* that she lied to gain notoriety and money, and that the Democrats used her & directed her in what to say - to stall Judge Kavanaugh's appointment.

Also I do believe that the Democrats demanding that the FBI do yet another investigation never thought that it would happen and it blew up in their faces and showed how complicit they were in this fiasco.


Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Taalcon on November 05, 2018, 04:52:50 pm
I read most of it. Just as I thought, Kavanaugh is proved innocent.

No matter one's interpretation of what's presented, that's not how this works.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Hobbes on November 06, 2018, 11:00:59 am
Many of you were concerned with the lack of thorough investigation during the Kavanaugh hearings. Here is a link to the 414 page summary of the investigation results released bt by the Senate Judiciary Committee today.  I'd be interested in your thoughts after you read the report yourselves - not the comments of what other people say about it.
[url]https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/press/rep/releases/senate-judiciary-committee-releases-summary-of-investigation-from-supreme-court-confirmation[url]

It looks like it was as reported.  They didn't interview the accused or the accuser, they did interview one person who was a witness for Kavanaugh but none of the people that were witnesses that stated they could confirm the accusations.  They did find people to try to discret Dr. Ford but that seems to be it, and even after expending their resources exclusively to defend Kavanaugh the strongest piece of information (according to them since they lead with it) is that she still flies despite a fear of flying.

I don't see any definitive proof that Kavanaugh committed the acts he was accused of.  I also don't see a very robust attempt to determine if he was or not, and it doesn't even come close to what I would expect of an investigation to determine if someone credibly accused of sexual assault should be a lifetime appointment to the highest court.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on November 09, 2018, 08:44:44 am
Winning isn't enough. Apparently, some people have to destroy anyone who dares to challenge their political views.

Quote
Kavanaugh Accuser Christine Blasey Ford Continues Receiving Threats

She has had to move four times, she wrote last month. She has had to pay for a private security detail. She hasn't been able to return to her job as a professor at Palo Alto University.

"My family and I have been the target of constant harassment and death threats," she told the committee.

"People have posted my personal information on the Internet. This has resulted in additional emails, calls, and threats. My family and I were forced to move out of our home. ... My family and I have been living in various secure locales, with guards."

Full story at NPR: https://www.npr.org/2018/11/08/665407589/kavanaugh-accuser-christine-blasey-ford-continues-receiving-threats-lawyers-say (https://www.npr.org/2018/11/08/665407589/kavanaugh-accuser-christine-blasey-ford-continues-receiving-threats-lawyers-say)
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on November 09, 2018, 01:16:25 pm
Reminds me of how unmercifully Trump kept beating up on Jeff Sessions before finally pushing him off the cliff. When people have a need to keep clobbering someone whom they already have an advantage over, it's an example of the "B-word" - that thing we try to teach our kids not to do to those who are smaller, weaker, or more vulnerable. And the one who does it is a pitiful, contemptible "B-word."  ::) >:(
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on November 09, 2018, 01:22:21 pm
I listened to an NPR story today about a recent study showing how political party is now more divisive than race, gender, or any other difference in U.S. society.  :(

I've read that where folks used to be concerned about their son or daughter dating someone of a different race or religion, now they don't want them getting involved with someone of the other political party!

And considering what political differences have done to some people, & how they have deteriorated overall civility & courtesy, I would RATHER my kid (if I had any) married someone of another religion or race than someone with whom they'd be having endless political arguments!
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Jacaré on November 09, 2018, 03:53:48 pm
I'll probably hate myself in the morning, but here goes:

Quote
Winning isn't enough. Apparently, some people have to destroy anyone who dares to challenge their political views.

There's a lot of that going around. And one could make the case that there's more of it coming from the left than from the right. Just this week Tucker Carlson's wife was threatened by a mob outside their home while he was at work. They weren't just a bunch of protestors on the sidewalk. They physically damaged the outside of the house and she had to lock herself in the pantry until the police arrived. Trump administration officials have been harassed and chased out of public places, on several occasions, egged on and encouraged by current and former Democratic party office holders, including Queen Hillary herself. Not to mention an actual assassination attempt on Republican representatives and senators on a baseball field.

And don't even get me started on Antifa, a rather ironic name for a group that tries to impose, by force of violence, an ideology that was responsible for over 100 million deaths in the last century.

As for not being satisfied with winning, there's plenty of that on both sides too. Opponents of gay marriage were mocked for saying it would threaten religious freedom. Yet that's exactly what happened. And now that gay marriage is essentially the law of the land, its proponents appear determined to beat everyone else into submission, hence Masterpiece Cakeshop.

I'm not defending what's being done to Dr. Ford. It's despicable. I don't have the words to describe how much I hate that kind of treatment of anybody. The fact that it comes from both sides, or either side, is a sign of how sick and disfunctional our political discourse has become.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on November 09, 2018, 07:38:03 pm
Agreed, Jacare.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Jason on November 11, 2018, 07:18:26 pm
Current event?

Armistice declared in the Great War!

17 million deaths.

Ironically named Spanish Flu taken around the world by returning military. 500 million infected. 50-100 million mostly young, healthy adults die (3-6% of the world's population).

Called Spanish Flu because Spain was not involved in WWI, so they did not censor reports of this pandemic like other war participating countries did, who were trying to maintain morale. It was more devastating in other countries, though.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on November 14, 2018, 02:42:41 am
This is related to the California wildfires, but it's also about politics, so I'll keep this off the fire thread so we can talk over there without distraction.

In the midst of these awful catastrophes, while dozens have died & tens of thousands have fled for their lives, losing everything, & emergency responders are risking their lives to save people & property … a feud starts.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/california-wildfires/article/Trump-on-California-s-Camp-Fire-Forest-13380388.php?utm_campaign=sfgate&utm_source=article&utm_medium=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sfgate.com%2Fcalifornia-wildfires%2Farticle%2FWill-Trump-come-to-California-White-House-mum-as-13385296.php%3Ft%3D0c65dde8ba

http://www.cpf.org/go/cpf/news-and-events/news/cpf-president-brian-rice-responds-to-president-attack-on-ca-fire-response/

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-draws-ire-firefighters-celebrities-tweet-about-california-fires-n934856

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Trump-blames-California-for-natural-disaster-13387222.php
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on November 19, 2018, 03:44:47 am
https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Mr-President-That-s-a-Good-One-Congressman-13403784.php

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump’s-attack-on-retired-admiral-who-led-bin-laden-raid-escalates-a-war-of-words/ar-BBPRcJT?ocid=spartanntp

https://www.voanews.com/a/trump-gives-himself-an-a-plus-as-president/4663827.html
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on November 22, 2018, 03:25:40 am
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/saudi-arabia-celebrates-as-trump-gives-riyadh-a-pass-in-journalists-killing-outrage-follows-elsewhere/ar-BBPY0aA?ocid=spartanntp

http://www.staradvertiser.com/2018/11/21/breaking-news/rep-tulsi-gabbard-calls-trump-saudi-arabias-bitch/

https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/16/politics/donald-trump-saudi-financial-interests/index.html
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on November 24, 2018, 10:40:46 pm
At Thanksgiving, my family was visiting my wife's folks who winter in Yuma, AZ, just a few miles from the border with Mexico. We stayed with them for three days. While we were there, we went to the border crossing at Los Algodones. There were a lot of people crossing in both directions--many on foot. We went farther west to the Imperial Sand Dunes (holy cow are they big!) It's a huge recreation area for off road riding. There are several places at the dunes where the border fence is almost buried.  I mean, you could drive a four wheeler back and forth between Mexico and the U.S. with impunity. Guess what?  We didn't get murdered or raped!  No mayhem!  I know Trump warned us; however, all I saw were a lot of people from both countries going about their business or having fun. I lived in a border state (Texas) for 18 years. I think a lot of people don't understand how much immigrants are part of the culture and economy of border states.  Trump's whole campaign of fear mongering is founded on the reality that many people don't understand real life in a border state. People who live there understand. People who have family members across the border understand. We understand that a lot of people buy into Trump's lies about immigrants because party is more important than reality.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: pnr on November 25, 2018, 04:08:46 pm
a lot of people buy into Trump's lies about immigrants because party is more important than reality.

I don't buy this --- it isn't a party, certainly not to the Pres.  And many traditional R's don't consider much of what he does consistent with their party values.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on November 25, 2018, 07:14:31 pm
Shoulda said "political party."  ;)
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on November 26, 2018, 12:02:17 am
What DT was grateful for at Thanksgiving.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-thanks-president-t-in-thanksgiving-weekend-tweet/ar-BBQ4xtt?ocid=spartanntp

Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on December 07, 2018, 12:34:05 am
What an interesting story!

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Making-Trump-s-Bed-A-Housekeeper-Without-Papers-13447649.php
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on December 21, 2018, 12:18:41 am
Nikki Haley. Jeff Sessions. Scott Pruitt. H.R. McMaster. Rex Tillerson. Tom Price. Steve Bannon. Michael Flynn. James Comey. Last week, Ryan Zinke, under a cloud of scandal, like some of the others listed & others not. To name just a few – people who hitched their wagons to the Trump star & bailed, were dumped, or bailed ahead of being dumped. 

And now, the one with probably the most critical role of all with regard to national security along with Secretary of State – the Secretary of Defense, James Mattis, has submitted his resignation.

This comes just hours ahead of a potential government shutdown over the funding for the Trump Wall.

https://www.sfgate.com/business/article/Mattis-Resigns-as-Defense-Chief-Citing-13482117.php

https://www.sfgate.com/opinion/article/With-Mattis-out-we-re-in-uncharted-territory-13482386.php

https://www.sfgate.com/news/texas/article/With-Senate-passage-bill-to-prevent-shutdown-13479782.php

https://www.sfgate.com/news/texas/article/The-Latest-Trump-slams-GOP-leaders-over-border-13480776.php

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ap-explains-what-happens-in-a-partial-government-shutdown/ar-BBReVKv?ocid=spartandhp

If any hostile country or entity wants to invade or subvert the United States, this would be the ideal time, just before Christmas, with the federal government in disarray & arguably a leadership vacuum in Washington, with no one in the White House or Congress willing to be the needed statesmen/women (or just the needed adult to keep the household running & the babies under control).
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: N3uroTypical on December 21, 2018, 10:44:42 am
"Elect me and I'll end our two major wars and close Gitmo." - Obama
- Becomes the first president to spend an entire 8 years at war, from start to finish.
- Doesn't close Gitmo
- The world reluctantly understands, because of words like "precarious" and "diplomacy" and "vacuum".

"Elect me and I'll bomb ISIS into oblivion and bring troops home" - Trump
- Bombs ISIS into oblivion and brings troops home
- Even though everyone started trying to get him to stop.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Jana at Jade House on December 21, 2018, 10:49:06 am
Except from international sources, ISIL is not bombed into anything but simmering defiance.  The war there is far from over.

I abhor war, but to say ISIL is defeated is clearly uninformed and dangerous.  I will be glad when they lay down their grievances, madness, and mayhem.  But sources here are absolute that ISIL is still a threat, diminished, but a threat.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: pnr on December 21, 2018, 04:11:18 pm
Mathis isn't leaving until Feb 28, 2019 when he expects a replacement to be in place.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on December 21, 2018, 04:48:51 pm
"Elect me and I'll end our two major wars and close Gitmo." - Obama
- Becomes the first president to spend an entire 8 years at war, from start to finish.
- Doesn't close Gitmo
- The world reluctantly understands, because of words like "precarious" and "diplomacy" and "vacuum".

"Elect me and I'll bomb ISIS into oblivion and bring troops home" - Trump
- Bombs ISIS into oblivion and brings troops home
- Even though everyone started trying to get him to stop.

Meaning what?  Congress and the DoD have far more influence in ongoing military operations than the President does.  Intelligence is pretty conclusive that ISIS has not been bombed into oblivion. Our allies want us to stay.  Who wants us out? Russia. Putin is applauding Trump's announcement. Hmm...

Besides, they're both unfit Commanders-in-Chief. Shoulda elected McCain, or at least Romney, when we had the chance.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: N3uroTypical on December 21, 2018, 08:45:45 pm
The point I'm trying to make, isn't about the effectiveness of our waging war against ISIS.  I'm trying to make the point that two presidents ran on the platform of ending war and bringing troops home.  The one on the left didn't keep his campaign promise, and all the traditional war-averse folks gave him a pass.  The one on the right(ish) did keep his campaign promise, and all the traditional war-averse folks are all up in his grill about it. 

I'm hearing it all over the place: The unspoken demand of eternal never-ending war because a diminished threat is still a threat.
 There's always more they, and there's always more threat.  The bloodthirstyness of how diminishing the threat isn't enough, from folks who claim to abhor war?  You sure about that?

Good time to look in the mirror.  If Obama had pulled out, and you were hearing the critical voices you're hearing now, who would be having the same reaction y'all are having now?  I'm guessing the world would be full of people saying "they're a diminished threat, and that's enough", and talking about how perpetual war doesn't solve anything, and blaming Bush for us being there in the first place. 

I guess multiple points.
- Its interesting to watch everyone freak out when a president does something he promised to do.
- Its interesting to think about how folks sometimes base their opinions not on the principles they claim to hold, but how much they like or dislike the guy or party making the call.
- Its interesting that a president actually makes good on a promise, despite the tsunami of criticism.
- (and my favorite point) I didn't vote for Trump or Hillary, so neener-neener. 
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Taalcon on December 21, 2018, 08:54:14 pm
Quote
- Its interesting to watch everyone freak out when a president does something he promised to do.
Some of us were freaked out when he promised to do most of the things he's doing, which is why we we opposed to him for a VERY long time, next to others who were going to vote for him anyway who said, "It's all rhetoric. He's not actually going to do those things."
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on December 21, 2018, 11:43:44 pm
And my point is that neither of those presidents should have made those promises in the first place, so it means nothing whether or not they were kept. Presidents, especially this one, take way more credit for positive things done by others, and they pass way more blame onto others for the negative things they actually do.

And so were clear about allegiances here: In my lifetime, the only presidents for whom I voted who subsequently made it into office are Reagan and the two Bushes. Never voted for either of the Clintons. Never voted for Obama. Didn't vote for Trump, either. Just because someone is opposed to Trump's policies doesn't automatically mean they're a socialist or a pacifist or that they supported Obama. 

America deserves better leadership than it's had this past decade.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on December 22, 2018, 12:16:51 am
America deserves better leadership than it's had this past decade.

A M E N
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Palmon on December 22, 2018, 09:01:03 pm
No. We get precisely the government we deserve.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on December 22, 2018, 09:42:48 pm
No. We get precisely the government we deserve.
I am not so sure that’s necessarily true.  The political processes (machinations would be a better word) that decide who ends up in Congress & the White House are so far removed from the average person that I almost believe one person’s vote (or one neighborhood’s, one town’s, or even one state’s) doesn’t matter. Governorships, House & Senate seats, & the Presidency of the United States itself are bought & sold, bartered & traded, treated like merchandise, & the transactions are signed & sealed before any of us even get to vote in a primary election.

I’m sorry to sound so cynical, but I think many Americans feel the same way. The main reason I vote now is because it is one of the most basic constitutional rights that I am entitled to as a U.S. citizen, & I don’t have the right to complain if I don’t vote.

A free & honest electoral process, one person one vote, where everyone can say "My voice matters, & someone cares what I think," is something most human beings do not have. Once upon a time, I naively thought we did. Thousands of Americans gave their lives to secure it, from the “embattled farmers” of Lexington & Concord to James Chaney, Andrew Goodman, Michael Schwerner, & Viola Liuzzo in my own lifetime. These brave people would writhe in their graves if they could see what has become of the democratic process that they were willing to fight & die for.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: pnr on December 23, 2018, 11:18:11 am
But that is because we choose to live where we do, and because we polarize ourselves in the political debates and trash talk the other, so those who seek our vote do not know/believe that we expect them to BE inherently good people, seeking actual solutions to issues, including getting out of our own partisanship.

I'm one of those people who believe that we need to enact legislation/amend the constitution so that the only money in politics comes from those who actually are voting or could be voting in the specific elections.   If you had to have a nexus --- a physical office, a residence, etc --- before the candidate could accept your money, then we'd be voting for local needs and interests, and not subject to the things money can buy for agendas that are not those of the place where people are voting.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on December 30, 2018, 04:39:18 pm
No. We get precisely the government we deserve.
We, as citizens, get precisely the government we deserve, because we elected our representatives. America--the ideals and principles enshrined in our founding documents--deserves better leadership.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Palmon on December 31, 2018, 07:16:00 pm
I apologize. I misspoke and didn't correct what I said, even after Curelom's and PNR's response made it clear that I had.

To rephrase: We get exactly the leadership we deserve. We are not a righteous country. We cannot expect nor do we deserve leadership that is more moral than we are as a nation. How many of the Lord's people have been destroyed because of unrighteousness? He has made He blesses the righteous nations and that so long as His people stay righteous, they will prosper in the land.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on January 02, 2019, 08:39:14 am
Senator-Elect Mitt Romney writes to the American people. It's meant for everyone because it's in the Washington Post (isn't that one of the favorite recipients of the fake news moniker?), not the Deseret News

https://www.sfgate.com/opinion/article/How-a-president-shapes-the-public-character-13502232.php




Mosiah 29
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: N3uroTypical on January 03, 2019, 10:49:49 am
It's a tricky thing to talk publicly about Trump, when you support so many things Trump is doing, but you detest the guy personally.

https://utahpolicy.com/index.php/features/today-at-utah-policy/16567-romney-praises-trump-s-first-year-in-office
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on January 03, 2019, 05:20:58 pm
Government shut down & limping along, employees working without knowing when they'll be paid, volunteers emptying trash & cleaning outhouses in national parks because Trump directed they be kept open so he avoids taking the fall for closing them.

Red Senate & Blue House probably at each other’s jugulars for the next 2 years. Pelosi & McConnell, lucky us.

Trump retreating from America’s historic role as a world leader, trashing forever allies while cozying with Putin, Kim, & MBS, losing or firing the brightest thinkers he once thought would be assets, making a show of slandering & demeaning them as viciously as he can, & feuding with everyone else.

The world increasingly looking elsewhere for leadership.

And don't even get me started on Mueller & what he might discover & reveal, or hush money, or taxes, who is in prison or is about to be.

https://m.sfgate.com/news/article/Trump-opens-year-with-self-attery-and-13504634.php

https://m.sfgate.com/opinion/article/The-walls-around-Trump-are-crumbling-13503156.php

https://m.sfgate.com/opinion/article/After-two-years-Trump-is-more-ignorant-on-foreign-13505976.php
 
https://www.npr.org/2018/12/26/678348210/opinion-5-ways-the-u-s-retreated-from-the-world-stage-under-trump-this-year
 
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/20/world/middleeast/trump-saudi-khashoggi.html

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/ny-news-trump-putin-kim-jong-un-20181014-story.html

https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-biggest-insults-world-leaders-2018-1273155

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/economy/as-america-retreats-china-moves-to-create-a-new-world-order/

Happy New Year, everybody! It'll be an interesting time. 
::)
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on January 03, 2019, 08:32:28 pm
The GOP's amoral response to Romney:

Quote
Maybe Romney thinks the Democrats are also a big problem and that Trump’s policies are great, but that character is also important and should be addressed? Perhaps he recognizes that lots of Republicans praise Trump’s wins and attacks on Democrats, but believe there is a dearth of Republicans willing to raise this important issue?

Those very logical arguments aren’t countenanced by the most prominent defenses of Trump. Instead, leading voices in the GOP seem to be arguing that tribalism is the end goal — that the ends justify the means. The party of values and morality is increasingly arguing that such ideals are mere speed bumps on the way to conservative policy goals. And they’re saying it publicly.

What might be most notable, though, is what they’re not saying: that anything Romney wrote about Trump’s character is wrong.

Entire article here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/01/03/gops-extremely-telling-amoral-response-mitt-romneys-op-ed/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.72dca3c30aae (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/01/03/gops-extremely-telling-amoral-response-mitt-romneys-op-ed/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.72dca3c30aae)
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Jason on January 03, 2019, 08:43:10 pm
The GOP never really embraced Mitt Romney. They were happy to tear him apart during his presidential run. Now that he is saying true things about President Trump, they are happy to circle the wagons around Trump and excoriate Romney once again. He recognized the danger in Russia long before the Democrats pivoted and became anti-Russia. Even if he is a big government Republican, can it get any bigger than it has become under President Trump? Record taxes are being brought in, but they are spending more than ever resulting in record deficits, meaning that nothing has been done for fiscal restraint.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: N3uroTypical on January 04, 2019, 10:08:32 am
Ya bunch of down-in-the-dumpers. 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-world-is-getting-quietly-relentlessly-better-11546430400?fbclid=IwAR1N8strf_A4CTwXPqWN_HBmpOo49kLuleFy324-UBFYVO0fC3LW_c_8wC8

If you're not behind a paywall, this is a pretty cool article.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on January 04, 2019, 09:50:25 pm
Thanks, NT. That seems to be how things work, unfortunately.  Good things usually happen quietly and consistently, while bad things are filled with drama.  Hope you had a wonderful Christmas, btw.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: pnr on January 05, 2019, 07:23:39 pm
"The Real Roots of American Rage" https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/01/charles-duhigg-american-anger/576424/

I read this today and thought it might inform this thread.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on January 05, 2019, 08:17:31 pm
Thanks for the link to the article, PNR. A few thoughts:

Quote
Harvard Business School devoted a course to using anger in negotiations. “There were papers and studies explaining that the way to unite your company is by getting them angry at a common enemy,”

Militaries have been doing this for as long as...well...there have been militaries. Politicians do this as well as military commanders: Unite your base by identifying an enemy--a threat to security.

Quote
When we scrutinize the sources of our anger, we should see clearly that our rage is often being stoked not for our benefit but for someone else’s. If we can stop and see the anger merchants’ self-serving motives, we can perhaps start to loosen their grip on us.

Amen.

Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on January 07, 2019, 01:56:10 am
Quote
When we scrutinize the sources of our anger, we should see clearly that our rage is often being stoked not for our benefit but for someone else’s. If we can stop and see the anger merchants’ self-serving motives, we can perhaps start to loosen their grip on us.

Amen.
Double amen.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on January 18, 2019, 01:44:32 am
I see no one has posted on this thread for awhile. Are we just all totally, completely, terminally fatigued?  :(

I am friends with many federal employees, & at the moment I care more about them than about the babies in Congress & the White House. Political disagreements can be resolved by adults if they put resolving them ahead of any personal agendas or feuds. I am so fed up with Trump, Pelosi, McConnell, & the whole screaming bratty kindergarten full of them, their stubbornness & refusal to honor the promises they made both while campaigning & while raising their right hand to take their oath of office. AFAIAC, they all should be ashamed to hold any public office & consider themselves patriotic Americans. Better not say any more. ::)

** Goes off in a corner & picks up one of the cats. Dogs & cats are good for our mental health & help keep our blood pressure down.  8)  **
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: N3uroTypical on January 18, 2019, 01:17:39 pm
Dogs & cats are good for our mental health & help keep our blood pressure down.  8)
We raise turkeys, and I have a video somewhere with shennanigans.

Me: "Everybody say 'Make America Great Again!'"
Turkeys: [muted blerp blerp noises]

Me: "Everybody say 'Obamacare'!"
Turkeys: GOBBLEGOBBLEGOBBLEGOBBLEGOBBLEGOBBLEGOBBLEGOBBLEGOBBLEGOBBLEGOBBLE!!!!!!
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on January 18, 2019, 09:02:49 pm
the whole screaming bratty kindergarten full of them
At least, Kindergarten kids are done screaming and being bratty after a few minutes. Then they're friends again. They don't go around the school taking everybody else's lunchboxes.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on January 19, 2019, 02:15:02 am
At least, Kindergarten kids are done screaming and being bratty after a few minutes. Then they're friends again. They don't go around the school taking everybody else's lunchboxes.

Where is that ROFL graemlin that was so popular at Old Nauvoo?  :D
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: nitasmile on January 19, 2019, 09:09:55 am
I agree Curelom, well said. We have quite a few families in our world that are impacted. It is so frustrating to me to see how this type of shutdown is being allowed. I do not understand what happened to the checks and balances system in this country. Are these judges who are allowing people to continue to work without being paid being bribed? I have to wonder. I do feel in the last few days I've seen more strongly worded articles that it needs to end and people standing up for some of the wrong doings. I do not understand why these air traffic controllers and other personnel are required to work without pay, seems completely illegal to me.
I I'm so tired of the lack of compassion and someone in comments that I see in other news pages that I follow. A lady of my neighborhood is actually starting a furlough
Food pantry for people in our neighborhood still have it impacted and my neighborhood is a super nice neighborhood! I'm curious to see what will happen in the speech today at 3 Eastern Time. Hope this resolves soon, but I do agree with you that they should be able to normal fashion.

Do we have any noodles that are not able to work due to the shutdown?[
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on January 19, 2019, 09:42:15 am
RayB from Old Nauvoo is a government contractor. He works with radar systems for the Air Force. In the past, he has been furloughed during government shut downs. I suspect that's the case now. I know he has kids at home.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: nitasmile on January 19, 2019, 10:51:47 am
Hope he and others are ok.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Iggy on January 19, 2019, 11:49:48 am
My Branch President is on furlough. BUT as he stated to all of us over the pulpit,
Quote
Sissy, our sons and I Thank our Heavenly Father for giving us through our prophets the revelation of Food Storage and Preparedness. We listened, counseled with our Bishop when we were first married oh so many years ago, and put away 20% of our gross income into Emergency Savings as well as paying not only our 10% tithing but also a *Generous* Fast Offering. During this time of *In The World* unrest, we will be more than fine. We figure we have enough cash reserves to pay utilities for approximately 2 years, our home is debt free, property taxes will be paid for those two years, we have food reserves to last us about 6 years, and as for fresh vegetables Sissy learned how and what to sprout year round here at an RS Evening meeting. We also have a *Petty Cash* reserve to pay for gas for the cars, personal incidentals for several years. Now, if there are any of our newly baptized members, new investigators here who need a helping hand ....


We were concerned about Hubby's Son as he is contracted to the US Gov. Hubby called him, asked, and was told that his company isn't compacted by this - the contract they have is solid and the money has already been paid. No one else in our family + extended family is affected.

Now, since I am widely known as stepping outside of the box and boldly speaking my mind I told husband well before our Branch President stood up and told the congregation they were okay. I said regarding him & family: ME: He was born in the covenant, as was his wife and their two teen children. Both have stressed their testimonies of Food Storage and Emergency Preparedness. IF they have been telling the truth - IF even 1/4th of the two double car garages is filled with food storage AND emergency preparedness, and if they have even utilized 1/16th of the acre they own as a vegetable garden, then they should be okay regarding food for the next several months if not years.

As for members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, HAD they heeded the words of God's living prophets regarding Food Storage only, they should be okay for a minimum of 3 months, or 6 months or at the most 1 year. Isn't this one of the Calamities, reasons the prophets have warned us about as they have told us to prepare our food storage/emergency preparedness??? Not just to survive tsunamis, hurricanes, typhoons, floods, earthquakes, but for the (these are MY words) stupidness and follies of our individual government heads?

Personally, if our SS Checks are not held back, we will be able to pay bills. We have food storage that will feed us, and that we will thrive on for approximately 9 months. My mini vegetable garden kept getting invaded by the local feral cats, raccoons, and river rats. So I planted flowers and turned my efforts to sprouting instead. Discovered that Hubby absolutely loves sprouted radishes, carrots, alfalfa, broccoli, etc., etc. on sandwiches and as salads. Sprouted lentils, dry beans, mung beans made into soups using from the many, many cans of diced tomatoes in my food storage, and freeze-dried chicken made into a hearty soup.

For those who are impacted by this, who are not LDS, many banks are offering interest-free 90-day loans to help tide them over. Don't know if any food banks are gathering in more food to help them or not. Since I am not in the grocery business anymore, don't know what the store chains are now doing with their out-dated but still totally edible foods.


Edited just now because of spelling & grammar errors.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: N3uroTypical on January 19, 2019, 07:43:28 pm
I once did 6 months of unemployment.  The combination of the tech bubble and the telcom bubble bursting just did me in.  My wife was in the middle of a complicated and dangerous pregnancy at the time, seeing a specialist on top of her gyn/OB, and having weekly ultrasounds.   I took the first job I was offered (which is a condition of unemployment insurance), even though it offered no health insurance.  Man, those were the days!

We got by, largely because we had been following the church's counsel on provident living (a few years before the term was coined) for years, and had a reserve saved up, had always minimized debt, lived (mostly) within our means.  And also because of a generous Mom's group who volunteered 20+ different mommies to watch kid #1, so daddy could go to work and momma could stay on her bed rest to give protokid #2 the best chance to grow to term.  Also our Bishop just showed up unasked-for with a ton of Christmas and an envelope with some hundred dollar bills.

Yes indeed, it stinks to have your ability to make a living for your family kicked in the teeth by forces outside of your control.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on January 19, 2019, 08:30:50 pm
My Branch President is on furlough. BUT as he stated to all of us over the pulpit,
Quote
Sissy, our sons and I Thank our Heavenly Father for giving us through our prophets the revelation of Food Storage and Preparedness....  As for members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, HAD they heeded the words of God's living prophets regarding Food Storage only, they should be okay for a minimum of 3 months, or 6 months or at the most 1 year....



It's all well & good if everyone can be prepared for a 3-month, 6-month, or longer siege. And those who can't - yeah, they aren't heeding the word of God & the prophet, yeah, they had years to get this done. But many people cannot achieve that level of preparedness for various reasons, & through no fault of their own have to stretch paychecks from one month to the next. And then, as N3uroTypical said, someone comes along & yanks the rug out from under them. This includes many federal employees, who are typically paid less than state or local employees for comparable work but still have to pay the rent in NYC, SF, or other expensive regions. Reality is a b**** :(
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on January 25, 2019, 04:31:43 am
This is a disgrace.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/if-coast-guard-members-are-killed-during-shutdown-their-families-wont-get-benefits/ar-BBSHAjP?ocid=spartanntp

So is this.

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Lara-Trump-tells-federal-workers-their-missed-13555782.php

And this.

https://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/a-family-trip-to-national-parks-and-the-nightmare-of-the-shutdown/
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: N3uroTypical on January 25, 2019, 03:51:06 pm
Looks like the bell rang for round one, everyone to their corners for a breather.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47007081

Quote
Speaking on day 35 of the shutdown in the White House Rose Garden, Mr Trump said the agreement would fund the government until 15 February.

He said federal workers affected by the political imbroglio, whom he called "incredible patriots", would receive full back-pay.

Mr Trump also said he had decided at this time not to resort to "a very powerful alternative" - an apparent reference to declaring a national emergency.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on January 26, 2019, 08:03:16 pm
Goodie for them. We make fun of third world "s***hole countries" for having interim governments & being unable to manage the simplest of governmental functions.

We have an operating government for 3 weeks. How many Americans of average means could run their lives without knowing 3 weeks in advance how we would pay the rent or mortgage, make car or tuition payments, schedule medical or dental procedures, or just buy food? 

None of the politicians will budge. On Valentine's Day we will be back where we are today. The Democrats will agree to some border security enhancements but reject a wall, on principle. Trump insists on a wall or no budget, even though we've been told repeatedly that Mexico will hand over the money. We'll see a continued "who blinks first" contest, no action on the federal budget, then a constitutionally questionable declaration of national emergency, with a court challenge that will go for months. Maybe James Mattis, John Kelly, & a few other present or retired military leaders will organize a coup d'etat - which I am not convinced would be any worse than what we have now, as long as they were committed to restoring civilian government once we have elections & have some assurance of integrity in Congress & the White House.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on January 26, 2019, 08:04:08 pm
Well, well, well!!!!! :D

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Trump-s-demand-for-a-border-wall-shut-down-the-13564266.php

ETA more.

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Trump-once-advocated-a-huge-financial-penalty-13601840.php

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/From-Costa-Rica-to-New-Jersey-a-pipeline-of-13601269.php
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: pnr on February 01, 2019, 09:14:47 pm
I had to laugh when Pelosi got mad at Trump for finding legal loopholes to continue as much of government as he could, and insists he behaved badly.   If she's not willing to support one of the several bills withholding congressional salaries and requiring they remain in session during any shutdown, and if she continues objecting to what seems a huge amount to the rest of us but is a drop in the bucket in Washington terms to secure the border that Charles Schumer and a lot of her Democratic colleagues once supported, specially not giving it up for dreamers, just because it is Trump asking for it, then she's definitely part of the problem (as are those Democrats who really think that we are okay if we do not secure the border at all).

I'm not one who thinks that Trump can use the emergency executive power to build it, as I don't courts will construe the illegal immigration problem as the type of emergency Congress meant in granting it.   But it will be sheer partisan politics if Democrats don't give up substantial funds for dreamers.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on February 01, 2019, 09:38:29 pm
To be fair, democrats are on record of supporting everything that has been asked to secure the border, except for Trump's wall. It is misinformation from the White House that democrats are against border security. Democrats want border security--better communication and surveillance equipment, more personnel, better training, streamlined legal processes--everything Homeland Security and border states have identified as the most important considerations--they just don't want Trump's ineffective wall so he can fulfill a campaign promise.

Edit: By the way, Trump also said that he would get Mexico to pay for the wall. So...where's the money? I'm not inclined to foot the bill for that failure.

On a related note: Anyone been following the news of El Chapo's tunnels for bringing drugs across the border?
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Jacaré on February 02, 2019, 12:36:23 am
Quote
democrats are on record of supporting everything that has been asked to secure the border, except for Trump's wall.

Actually, virtually every major democratic leader in America is on record as supporting a wall. Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, Diane Feinstein, Chuck Schumer, Barack Obama, to name just a few, all voted for a wall -- but then Trump became president. Polls show that democrats generally supported a wall until Trump announced his candidacy for president. Opposition to a wall now has nothing to do with it's efficacy, and everything to do with the fact that Trump is for it.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Jacaré on February 02, 2019, 12:51:02 am
 Pretty good op-ed by Senator Rick Scott (https://www-washingtonpost-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/opinions/ive-been-a-senator-for-two-weeks-washington-is-worse-than-youve-heard/2019/02/01/2e5ebe66-2575-11e9-90cd-dedb0c92dc17_story.html?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fopinions%2Five-been-a-senator-for-two-weeks-washington-is-worse-than-youve-heard%2F2019%2F02%2F01%2F2e5ebe66-2575-11e9-90cd-dedb0c92dc17_story.html)

His main point is that the vast majority of Americans want a secure border, including a physical barrier of some kind. The vast majority of Americans also want protections for Dreamers. It should be an easy deal to make. Except in Washington, where obliterating ones opponents is more important than doing the right thing, even when the right thing should be easy.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on February 02, 2019, 12:50:37 pm
Yep. I think most reasonable people could agree that if both sides gave a little to gain a lot, we could get there. However, both sides seem to have this mistaken idea that compromise means weakness. Couple that with "I get everything I want or people will suffer," and, "No you don't, and I'm going to teach you a lesson or people will suffer," and we end up with another shut down. Trump and Pelosi are egomaniacs. McConnel is sycophant. Thank goodness we still have decent senators and representatives in Congress:

Quote
Sen. Mark Warner (D-Va.) on Tuesday introduced legislation to prevent future government shutdowns in the event of funding lapses. ... The Stop Stupidity (Shutdowns Transferring Unnecessary Pain and Inflicting Damage In The Coming Years) Act would automatically renew funding for all aspects of government, besides the legislative branch and president’s office, at the same level as the previous year. ... Warner said in the release that the Stop Stupidity Act would “protect federal government workers from being used as pawns in policy negotiations.” ... He added that the bill would force Congress and the president to “do the jobs they were elected to do” without “hurting the American public.” ... “It is disturbing that the daily lives of hundreds of thousands of workers are at the mercy of dysfunction in Washington,” Warner said. “Workers, business owners and tax payers are currently paying the price of D.C. gridlock and my legislation will put an end to that.”
 https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/426459-senate-dem-introduces-stop-stupidity-act-to-end-government-shutdowns (https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/426459-senate-dem-introduces-stop-stupidity-act-to-end-government-shutdowns)

Quote
Another proposal, from Sen. Rob Portman (R-Ohio), would automatically fund the government at existing levels if lawmakers don’t reach an agreement on time. But funding would be reduced by 1 percent after 120 days and again every subsequent 90 days if lawmakers haven’t reached a deal. ... The push comes as the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office said in a report Monday that the shutdown cost the U.S. economy an estimated $11 billion, with $3 billion expected to be permanently lost even after workers receive back pay and services return to normal.
https://thehill.com/homenews/house/427372-lawmakers-push-to-end-govt-shutdowns-for-good (https://thehill.com/homenews/house/427372-lawmakers-push-to-end-govt-shutdowns-for-good)
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Jason on February 02, 2019, 10:42:01 pm
Quote
To be fair, democrats are on record of supporting everything that has been asked to secure the border, except for Trump's wall. It is misinformation from the White House that democrats are against border security. Democrats want border security--better communication and surveillance equipment, more personnel, better training, streamlined legal processes--everything Homeland Security and border states have identified as the most important considerations--they just don't want Trump's ineffective wall so he can fulfill a campaign promise.

Edit: By the way, Trump also said that he would get Mexico to pay for the wall. So...where's the money? I'm not inclined to foot the bill for that failure.

On a related note: Anyone been following the news of El Chapo's tunnels for bringing drugs across the border?
Many leading Democrats are also on record for wanting to abolish ICE, comparing ICE to NAZIs, and having open borders and open immigration. There is a wide range of opinions among the Democrats regarding immigration.

If I were a Democrat that opposed Trump's issue (even if I previously was in favor of variations of his issue), I would pass a bill that would fully fund the Wall, however, the appropriations would be an invoice to Mexico. Promise made, promise kept.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on February 06, 2019, 02:31:22 am
….both sides seem to have this mistaken idea that compromise means weakness. Couple that with "I get everything I want or people will suffer," and, "No you don't, and I'm going to teach you a lesson or people will suffer," and we end up with another shut down. Trump and Pelosi are egomaniacs. McConnel is sycophant.

I can't stand any of them. Yes, God created them & they are His children, but I disown them as siblings! I wish we could treat them like defective merchandise & take them back for a refund. :D

Can we really legislate against stupidity? That would be great. We could totally outlaw it, not only at all levels of government, but in education, industry, health care, entertainment, & every other area of life. Being stupid once would be a misdemeanor, & repeated stupidity would result in "strikes" resulting in felony charges & prison time. Half of Congress would qualify today for a life sentence. ::)
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Palmon on February 06, 2019, 01:41:27 pm
SOTU address:  CNN instant approval rating: 76%
favorite lines:
 
  "We must keep freedom alive in our souls."
  "We are born free and will stay free"
  "All children—born and unborn—are made in the holy image of God.”
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: N3uroTypical on February 06, 2019, 02:14:14 pm
I also liked "Great nations do not fight endless wars".
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on February 06, 2019, 11:46:40 pm
It's interesting that when Trump called for paid family leave, everyone cheered. When he called for an end to late term abortions, the representatives in white immediately became stoic.  I don't agree with Trump's demand for a wall. However, on the issues of family leave and abortion, he has my full and enthusiastic support.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Taalcon on February 07, 2019, 08:31:53 am
It's interesting that even the Church is a little more understanding of the complicated and difficult nature and reasons the ability to legally have some abortions (even later ones) can be the difficult, but correct decision.

From lds.org (https://www.lds.org/topics/abortion?lang=eng)
Quote
Church leaders have said that some exceptional circumstances may justify an abortion, such as when pregnancy is the result of incest or rape, when the life or health of the mother is judged by competent medical authority to be in serious jeopardy, or when the fetus is known by competent medical authority to have severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth. But even these circumstances do not automatically justify an abortion. Those who face such circumstances should consider abortion only after consulting with their local Church leaders and receiving a confirmation through earnest prayer.

I personally don't like the idea of abortion. At all. As someone who added to my family through adoption, I am grateful the child's birth mother made the heart-wrenching and physically draining decision to carry the child to term, even knowing she would then hand the child over to others to care for him.

But I HAVE been made aware of situations where married couples who WANTED the growing baby made that terrible choice because of rare but real circumstances involving both the knowledge of the outcome of the child's severe physical ailments mixed with severe life threatening complications of the mother's body. (Circumstances which the much-discussed New York Law was specifically worded and put in place to make allowances for)

It's an insanely complicated issue, and making those rare, difficult cases illegal across the board isn't the right answer. Listening to those who were placed in a situation to have to truly grasp with this (both LDS and not) has absolutely had an effect on my thoughts on this.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: N3uroTypical on February 07, 2019, 12:36:13 pm
It's interesting that even the Church is a little more understanding of the complicated and difficult nature and reasons the ability to legally have some abortions (even later ones) can be the difficult, but correct decision.
Indeed.  But IMO, folks have a responsibility to make this difficult but correct decision, before the child growing inside them begins reacting to sounds or pain or light, or has a chance of surviving outside the womb.  These things happen in the third trimester. 

Right?  I mean, this news story came about by a resurgence in the notion that abortion should be legal in the third trimester, and we have one guy making headlines for making the live/die decision after the actual birth.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Taalcon on February 07, 2019, 01:12:31 pm
It's interesting that even the Church is a little more understanding of the complicated and difficult nature and reasons the ability to legally have some abortions (even later ones) can be the difficult, but correct decision.
Indeed.  But IMO, folks have a responsibility to make this difficult but correct decision, before the child growing inside them begins reacting to sounds or pain or light, or has a chance of surviving outside the womb.  These things happen in the third trimester. 

Disastrous situations don't always arise when we feel they should. Again - there are circumstances where it is clear a) the child will not survive outside the womb even at that state, and serious health issues would be exacerbated for the parent if the gestation continues.

I wish these circumstances didn't exist. It would be much more convenient to my worldview if it was that way.

But life can be incredibly messy, and while general principles are good, not allowing any nuance or allowance for the statistically rare, but actual lived experiences is not the right way to do it.

I find it helpful to realize that even the Church's official policy is not absolute on this, recognizing the difficulty.

People having to make a decision for third trimester generally aren't lazy or incompetent or selfish. They desperately wanted those children, and are devastated at having to choose between horrible options. Sometimes the generalities presented in these discussions dehumanize them.

It's possible to hate the idea of terminating a pregnancy while acknowledging the need for legal allowances.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Palmon on February 07, 2019, 01:48:14 pm
We might as well see exactly what we are talking about during the third-trimester abortions, also earlier. This former abortionist created films (animated) of what exactly happens during an abortion.
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/he-performed-1200-abortions.-in-new-videos-he-wants-you-to-see-what-abortio (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/he-performed-1200-abortions.-in-new-videos-he-wants-you-to-see-what-abortio)

It is also interesting to note that in western culture, the US stands alone in making abortion legal until the birth of the child. Governor Northam's description of what would happen if a woman wants an abortion after going into labor makes it clear that we really are talking about infanticide.
The articles I've read have all said that if Virginia's law concerning abortion had passed, it would have made the horrors Gosnell had done, legal.

"In 2015, the CDC reported that 1.3 percent of abortions were committed at 21 weeks’ gestation and later. While 1.3 percent sounds very small, this equates to nearly 8,300 preborn children killed late-term every single year."
https://www.liveaction.org/news/three-myths-third-trimester-abortions]In 2015, the CDC reported that 1.3 percent of abortions were committed at 21 weeks’ gestation and later. While 1.3 percent sounds very small, this equates to nearly 8,300 preborn children killed late-term every single year.[url]https://www.liveaction.org/news/three-myths-third-trimester-abortions (http://In 2015, the CDC reported that 1.3 percent of abortions were committed at 21 weeks’ gestation and later. While 1.3 percent sounds very small, this equates to nearly 8,300 preborn children killed late-term every single year.[url)

Guttmacher Institute  As of Feb 1, 2019 State Policies on Later Abortions https://www.guttmacher.org/state-policy/explore/state-policies-later-abortions (https://www.guttmacher.org/state-policy/explore/state-policies-later-abortions)
note - the chart did not include Alaska, which allows 3rd-trimester abortion
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Taalcon on February 07, 2019, 02:08:24 pm
If it wasn't clear before, I am very much opposed to late-term abortion in general. (I'm no fan of it earlier than that either.)

While I understand the debate among the nebulous nature of early stages of gestation, I am truly horrified by the very few who might desire to seek one with no medical cause at that late point, and by those who find no problem in those who do so.

That is not my point. I am no advocate of unregulated free late-terms for everybody.

My point is across-the-board banning of the practice with zero allowances for exceptions is incredibly un-nuanced, and is NOT the solution, and dehumanizes both the infant and the woman, by making their unique circumstances irrelevant.

There are idiots and horrible evil people who are proponents of some aspects of late-term abortion.

That, in itself, is not a reason to unilaterally cut off sensitive and medically important options, as unpleasant and as rare as those may (and should) be.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on February 07, 2019, 03:40:49 pm
There are nuances in most decisions to have any medical procedure, including abortions at any stage of the fetus. I don’t think there is necessarily an intractable “black & white,” because of all the things that go into a mother, father, & perhaps family’s consideration, especially medical factors. At the moment, a couple of expectant moms I know are having serious health problems, & recently someone I know died of complications from pregnancy & birth (the child survived). I’ve never had kids, so I don’t have the perspective of either people who have hoped & wanted for years to be parents or those who have wished desperately for years that they weren’t.

I do wonder, though, if late-term abortion without extraordinary, extenuating medical reasons is ever legal (IOW "on demand"), why do prosecutors try to press criminal charges when a fetus is injured or killed? If a criminal act that harms an 8-mo fetus in the womb can be charged as a crime, why is killing the same fetus just because the egg and/or sperm donor want to be rid of the consequences of their actions just another medical treatment?  :-\ 
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Jana at Jade House on February 08, 2019, 03:35:17 am
It is hard for me to even read the differing views on this because of what I know, what I have experienced and the scars I have. 
Personally, I hope no one I care about ever has to be in the horrible position of termination decision. 

But when some folk are screaming infanticide, and some folk have no medical clue what they are talking about, and some folk have lovely children that are truly a miracle on feet, and others are indebted for life because their high need barely alive child clings to life, it is tough to separate out fact and sense.

Termination should never be for birth control, period.  But in very very narrowly defined circumstances after all other roads are considered, I am glad that termination is not criminalized.

but I still would not any one I cared about to make that decision.   
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on February 08, 2019, 08:56:09 pm
My point is across-the-board banning of the practice with zero allowances for exceptions is incredibly un-nuanced, and is NOT the solution, and dehumanizes both the infant and the woman, by making their unique circumstances irrelevant.

Who is advocating for that?
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Jason on February 13, 2019, 01:00:31 am
Many of the Catholic and Protestant pro-life groups are in support of 100% ban on all abortions. I have listened to some call in Christian radio shows as well as read some online advocacy groups and they are quite adamant that there can be no exceptions.

I think that helping people change their minds about abortion will be more effective in stemming the number of abortions than legislative acts will. Legislative bans have the undesired effect of forcing actions rather than allowing someone to exercise agency.

If we could convince people to voluntarily choose not to have elective abortions, then 95-98% of abortions would not occur.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Palmon on February 13, 2019, 08:10:08 pm
In the case of abortion, laws have been used to push opinion and acceptance.

Quote
Legislative bans have the undesired effect of forcing actions rather than allowing someone to exercise agency.
Some would argue that laws that protect abortion do more than just allowing agency, that instead they are cover for genocide. I suppose it all depends on how you view the life of the pre-born.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on February 13, 2019, 08:22:44 pm
Yeah, the "no exceptions" hard line doesn't help the cause. My question was in the context of Trump's State of the Union address.

As far as the law vs. agency debate:  The argument is much more nuanced than the two sides would have us pay attention to.

The federal government and several states have a fetal homicide law. If someone kills a pregnant woman, the perpetrator can also be charged with the killing of an unborn child. The law is very careful to exclude abortion. I find it ridiculous that the law acknowledges an unborn child as worthy of protection from anyone else killing her/him, except for the child's mother.

It's also interesting that the father does not get to choose. The mother can deprive the father of providing for the unborn child (by abortion) or force the father to provide for the unborn child by court order.

Ultimately, though, abortion is not a women's rights or a men's rights issue. It's a human rights issue. The unborn child has no means to advocate for his/her own rights, so the law must do it.

Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Jason on February 14, 2019, 02:16:04 pm
While cultural and temporal context differs significantly from today, some of the old testament punishments included cutting off a person's lineage. They also included invading and killing all of a neighboring kingdom's males and children, then forcing the women to have children with the invaders, raping and leaving them, or forcing them to marry them (which would still be considered rape by today's standards), thus spreading their own genes.

This reminds me a little of a new lion taking over a pride and killing all of the male offspring from the old leader of the pride and then impregnating all of the lionesses with his own DNA.

To me, this provides some of the reasoning and context for allowing for abortion for rape victims. Why should a rapist be granted an "evolutionary win" where he can spread his genes. There should be no reward for rape.

When does life begin is the wrong question. I think there is no doubt that life never stopped. The egg and the sperm are both alive. They were never dead. They join together and continue living. A new mixture of DNA has occured, but biological life never stopped, so biological life never began.

The correct questions to ask are as follows. One is religious, when does a spirit enter a prepared body? The other is legal, when does the fetus obtain various rights?

I do not think we know the answer to the first question. I have serious doubts that it is at conception, as half of all conceptions are spontaneously aborted, most of that without the women ever knowing a conception had happened. No where in the scriptures or church teachings have I found a place that says that part of the plan of salvation is that half of all spirits would never experience having a body, but rather that part of the plan is to obtain a body with all of its experiences.

Does John "leaping" in Elizabeth's womb when Mary came and greeted Elizabeth mean that John was conscious of what was happening? Or did an excited first time mom read something into her baby kicking. On the other hand, does 3rd Nephi 1:13, wherein the voice of the Lord tells Nephi "on the morrow come I into the world" mean that the spirit does not enter the body until birth and the "breath of life". Or are these special cases and cannot be generalized for when the spirit enters the body.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Taalcon on February 14, 2019, 02:58:19 pm
There's a lot of assumptions we make about the spirit/body connection, based on the shorthand symbolism generally used to describe it.

We really don't know much at all except for the general idea that there is a symbiotic relationship that forms and bonds at some point (physically? Remote link?) between these earthly animal bodies, and an eternal intelligence, and both together in a mutually beneficial covenant relationship of sorts, become more than the sum of their parts.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: JLM on February 15, 2019, 12:12:16 am
 Hmm..  Sounds very mither magey to me.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Taalcon on February 15, 2019, 07:06:14 am
Ha! I never actually got around to reading those, and know nothing about their story, although I've heard positive things!
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Taalcon on February 15, 2019, 11:24:46 am
Many are aware of the language of the LDS Church Policy which includes allowances, but haven't encountered a story that fits or helps truly understand those circumstances. Here's an article (https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/late-term-abortion-rape_us_5c630b8de4b0a8731aeabbd6?ncid=engmodushpmg00000003&fbclid=IwAR1lxM3d1RKppEtCmaOHdU2uyZRJXa01Lbbe6tXABjNBghIQE2t2nW9pgVI) (with an understandably horrific and off-putting headline) that places real people with real stories that make it more clear why the Church has made allowances and exceptions rather than an across-the-board ban on the practice. It's messy and it's horrible. But, IMO, those involved in these discussions should be aware of such stories and circumstances.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: JLM on February 15, 2019, 03:34:02 pm
Scott Card loves to slip in variations of LDS thinking into his stories, especially with regards to the nature of intelligences and the physical body.  Gatefather really gets into it.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Taalcon on February 15, 2019, 04:20:50 pm
Oh, I'm very much not surprised.

I remember a point after being Baptized, and thinking about Speaker for the Dead, and the three stages of piggie life, the out-of-sight Mothers, and was like WAIT A MINUTE. And then there were Aiuas.

I had also read Memory of Earth before reading the Book of Mormon, not knowing it's source. I hadn't realized how LDS-inspired some of Card's coolest concepts were until after they already had me ;)
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Jason on February 16, 2019, 01:08:13 am
I wonder what WALL-E thinks of Trump building a wall. If we had such a robot I bet we could just dump our trash along the border and the WALL-Es could create the wall pretty quickly. A big, beautiful wall...maybe not that beautiful. But big and a wall.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on February 16, 2019, 01:31:36 am
I think the LDS Church's policy on abortion makes the most sense. While I understand that some groups advocate for zero exceptions, I don't think anyone on this forum has done so.

Card's Alvin Maker series is clear full of LDS symbolism and parallels.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on February 17, 2019, 08:31:55 pm
"My government isn't doing what I want it to do!"

"Have you tried turning it off and on again?"
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: JLM on February 17, 2019, 10:19:45 pm
As well as the Homecoming series.  OSC has an interesting theory on why Alma the younger behaved the way he did.  There are gold plates in Enchantment, JSJ parallels in Alvin Maker series, a discourse on value of marriage in Magic Street, and so on.  A Mormon reads his books with a much different lense than non-mormons. 
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: N3uroTypical on February 18, 2019, 10:21:52 am
"My government isn't doing what I want it to do!"

"Have you tried turning it off and on again?"

I sometimes think about how cool it would be to just move the capitol building and white house to the middle of Nebraska or somesuch.  The massive disruption of lobbying networks and infrastructure and creature comforts and media frenzy and whatnot might just have our elected representatives focus on their jobs, so they can finish them and go home.  CSPAN can give us all the news we need. 

Folks got together and banged out a Constitution in the oppressive Philadelphia heat.  Maybe we need a little more of this.
https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/hot-hot-hot-the-summer-of-1787
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on February 18, 2019, 05:33:23 pm
"My government isn't doing what I want it to do!"

"Have you tried turning it off and on again?"

Or taking it to the toxic waste recycling center & getting a new or lightly used, functioning replacement.  :D
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Taalcon on March 08, 2019, 11:56:02 am
I am very, VERY uncomfortable in seeing the increasingly common practice of necessarily combining one's position on the State of Israel with one's view of the Jewish People.

One can be pro State of Israel while at the same time being in reality anti-Jewish/anti-Semitic. Likewise, one can be highly critical of the political State of Israel and be extremely respectful and reverential towards the Jewish people, beliefs and culture.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: pnr on March 08, 2019, 01:53:29 pm
I am very, VERY uncomfortable in seeing the increasingly common practice of necessarily combining one's position on the State of Israel with one's view of the Jewish People.

I think church members (and all Christians) should read Daniel Peterson's "Abraham Divided" https://www.amazon.com/Abraham-Divided-Daniel-C-Peterson/dp/1562362038  to distinguish support of Israel as discussed biblically, from support of Israel, the current nation state which doesn't always behave as though it is lead by people of God in various clearly mortal decisions it makes.

Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on March 08, 2019, 10:04:38 pm
I am very, VERY uncomfortable in seeing the increasingly common practice of necessarily combining one's position on the State of Israel with one's view of the Jewish People.
  Me too. We also do it with a lot of other things. If you criticize the violence and misogyny in Hip Hop, you're racist. If you criticize any aspect of feminism, you're misogynist. If you criticize any aspect of American corporate greed, you're a socialist. If you advocate for free speech in the ever expanding classification of "hate speech", you're homophobic, etc.  Groupthink and Balkanization are very much alive and thriving in American political society.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Jacaré on March 09, 2019, 08:58:30 pm
I assume you're talking about Rep. Ilhan Omar and her "alleged" anti-Semitism. Although at first glance some of what she's said doesn't seem like such a big deal (certainly Israel isn't above criticism). But what she's done is to recycle a lot of the old tropes, stereotypes, and conspiracy theories about how the Jews use their financial prowess to secretly rule the world through the banking system. It sounds ridiculous but there really are people who believe that. In politi-speak what she's done is called a dog-whistle; a subtle, sometimes innocuous word or statement that may sound innocent enough on the surface, but is designed to appeal to, and get a rise out of, a specific group of people. What she's said is not substantively different, just more sophisticated, than when Donald Trump said that Mexicans are rapists and drug dealers.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Taalcon on March 09, 2019, 09:24:55 pm
That circumstance has brought out a lot people conflating the two, but this went on long before that. So many politicians, Trump included, when accused of making clearly anti-Semitic remarks, or endorsing someone else who has a strong history of blatant anti-Jewish rhetoric, almost always, as their first and main defense, goes, "That's impossible, I'm such a strong supporter of Israel!"

There's something very attractive for many anti-Semites of the idea of a single, isolated Jewish Nationalist state. Many White Nationalists are very pro State of Israel for such a reason. There are other Evangelical-led strongly pro-Israel positions that are also very, very rooted in essentially anti-Semitic doctrinal positions.

Look online and see how many comments you see combining one's attachment for Jewish Community and State if Israel. It's very uncomfortable, particularly in politics.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: N3uroTypical on March 09, 2019, 10:57:05 pm
What she's said is not substantively different, just more sophisticated, than when Donald Trump said that Mexicans are rapists and drug dealers.
I don't suppose you've got a source for the claim that Trump has said Mexicans are rapists and drug dealers, would you?
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on March 09, 2019, 11:41:34 pm
"When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best...They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists." - Donald Trump June 16, 2015

You can read many of his tweets against Mexico here: http://time.com/4473972/donald-trump-mexico-meeting-insult/ (http://time.com/4473972/donald-trump-mexico-meeting-insult/)
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: N3uroTypical on March 10, 2019, 10:43:03 am
Sorry, Roper, but Jacare's claim is "Donald Trump said that Mexicans are rapists and drug dealers."

Your Trump quote does not say "Mexicans are rapists and drug dealers".  Your Trump quote says "When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best...They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists."

One would think that anyone with a modicum of charity, willing to follow the 2nd great commandment, could quite easily see Trump wasn't talking about "Mexicans", he was talking about a tiny subset of humans that a country is willfully sending.  He's not talking about all Mexicans, he's not talking about people who cross legally, he's not talking about everyone who crosses illegally.  He's not even talking about Mexicans.  Surely the recent caravan news hasn't escaped our short term memories that quickly, has it?  How the waves start in other countries and pass through Mexico? 

So again I'll state my request: Hey Jacare, that's a pretty stiff accusation you're making against another human - care to cite your source? 
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on March 10, 2019, 12:44:48 pm
Source stands. And here's why:

Donald Trump begins his statement by identifying one country: Mexico. Then he uses the possessive pronoun "its" to refer back to Mexico as a state. "Its people" can only mean citizens of Mexico. We wouldn't say, "America is sending its people to help rebuild Haiti" and mean that a small group of Canadians passing through America is going to Haiti. Trump meant Mexicans.

Trump then states, "They're sending." Again, the pronoun refers back to Mexico. Furthermore, "Sending" does not mean an unintended movement. "Sending" indicates a deliberate choice and action. Trump clearly implicated Mexico.

Trump states, "They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists." Again, the pronouns refer back to the only proper noun stated: Mexico. There is no reason to believe he suddenly switched to an ambiguous and unnamed origin for these people who are rapists and who bring crime and drugs. Trump meant to identify Mexicans.

Charity does not mean that I should take the actual words of a politician and wrest them to be politically palatable. Charity means I don't judge Trump's soul. That's what Jesus taught in the account of the woman brought before him. Maybe Trump doesn't really believe what he said. Maybe he was just saying it to create a common enemy which would unite his base. Maybe he has since changed his mind. I'm won't condemn him to Hell. Christ is the Judge. Not me. That said, charity does not require me or anyone to change a person's words into something they clearly did not say.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: N3uroTypical on March 11, 2019, 02:23:12 pm
"Charity does not mean that I should take the actual words of a politician and wrest them to be politically palatable."

By my reading, charity pretty much demands you refrain from taking the actual words of a politician and thinkething-evil about them.

Like how when Pres. Hinckley told Larry King and Mark Wallace the WoW meant no to caffeine, we all sort of knew what he was saying, and it's not "We don't drink caffeine".  Like that kind of charity, except offered to someone politically unpalatable.

Or maybe we should judge Hinckley's words in the same light.  So what do you think Roper, was our Prophet out of touch?  Outright lying?  Pushing up against dementia?  I mean, apply your skills at English the same way to those interviews.

Trump is politically unpalatable, whereas Hinckley is religiously palatable.  But God says charity should be offered to both.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: JLM on March 11, 2019, 03:09:33 pm
Trump is ethically, morally, logically and socially unpalatable.  He has said, done and promoted enough things contrary to the gospel of Christ, that his fruits speak for themselves.  Mormons who defend him are like the Nephites who supported the robbers in their midst.  No, Trump does not get a benefit of the doubt, as there is no doubt where his heart lies.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Jacaré on March 11, 2019, 04:05:11 pm
Thank you, Roper.

When Trump finished his remarks about drugs and rapists, he followed up with something like, "and I'm sure some of them are nice people," clearly indicating that he felt they were the minority. Maybe I wasn't precise enough in my description of his remarks, since I didn't specify that he was talking about illegal immigrants from Mexico and not necessarily all Mexicans. Either way his statement was false and designed, it seems to me (don't want to be too absolutist in my interpretation of clearly communicated ideas) to stoke racial animosity in the group that he perceives to be his base.

Maybe I'm too sensitive on the subject. I spent the last 30 years of my working life living in a predominantly minority community and taught for 10 years in a high school that was around 80% Hispanic. Many of my students were Dreamers. One of my former Dreamers is now studying to be a Catholic priest. I had one student's mom who was a big supporter of our ROTC program, frequently helping out at activities and such. I had no idea she was here illegally. Her daughter has since graduated from college and works for the National Park Service. I love those kids and am proud of them. It was an honor to have them in my class.

Having said all that -- I support many of Trump's initiatives. I believe illegal immigration is a serious problem that calls for serious solutions. I believe a border barrier of some kind, whether it be a wall, a fence, or a Star Wars style force field should be one of those solutions; not for the entire 2,000 miles or whatever the length of the border, but strategically placed to augment and enhance whatever other processes are in place.

I believe sanctuary cities are a travesty. They endanger not only the lives of American citizens, but the lives of legitimate immigrants in minority communities, because that's where illegal immigrant criminals are most likely to hang out.

So there are things that Trump supports that I support. There are things that I don't. Either way, Trump debases both himself and his position when he resorts to demagoguery.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: N3uroTypical on March 12, 2019, 10:32:40 am
Trump is ethically, morally, logically and socially unpalatable.  He has said, done and promoted enough things contrary to the gospel of Christ, that his fruits speak for themselves.  Mormons who defend him are like the Nephites who supported the robbers in their midst.  No, Trump does not get a benefit of the doubt, as there is no doubt where his heart lies.

Quote
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Taalcon on March 12, 2019, 11:02:23 am
N3uro, with all due respect, Jesus, and the prophets before him, called out corrupt politicians and religious leaders whose actions and hearts were causing emotional, physical, and spiritual suffering to their constituents. It is actually one of the hallmarks of historic Prophetic ministry. (Remember that time where Jesus wouldn't give Herod the benefit of hearing his voice, but still compared him derogatorily to a fox in front of others?)

It is done out of Charity for those for whom those powerful individuals are oppressing and harming.

There are times that people (including family members, politicians, and others in position of power and influence over others) have revealed themselves so clearly, to continue to support and give them the benefit of the doubt begins to be harmful not just to them, but to oneself and others as well who are within their influence.

Charity does not include supporting, excusing, or ignoring abuse. It can include hoping one will change, but it does not include trusting and supporting or facilitating the consistent behavior while they have not. Especially when one is in a position to continue to do harm to others.

When a bully says bullying things 20 times a day, it is not charitable to say one of those 20 things, consistent with other bullying language used on other contexts, might be interpreted to NOT be bullying. There are other words for what one is doing in that case, but, from my perspective,  'charitable' is not one of them.

I know many, many people who desperately wanted (and want!) to be able to support Policy Trump, and tried for a long time to put a spin on his rhetoric into something gracious, but have long given up on trying to allow themselves to give him the benefit of the doubt on, well, anything. Because it hurt their head and heart too much to do so. They tried the 'charity' path, but came to a point where they realized that what they had convinced themselves was 'charity' and 'hope' was in fact just a manifestation of 'political loyalty'.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: JLM on March 12, 2019, 01:20:46 pm
Quote
There are other words for what one is doing in that case, but, from my perspective,  'charitable' is not one of them. 

I think the polite term is "enabling."
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on March 12, 2019, 07:46:55 pm
By my reading, charity pretty much demands you refrain from taking the actual words of a politician and thinkething-evil about them.
1: Are you sure you know what I'm thinking? 2: I'm not thinking evil. I'm doing a bit of rhetorical analysis.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on March 22, 2019, 02:37:30 am
Would you just look at this? A day after several days of additional trashing of an American hero who isn’t even alive to defend himself, along with trashing other American public figures plus the husband of one of his own last little handful of employees who will put up with his ****, look what he does.   >:(

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Trump-congratulates-Putin-on-his-reelection-12767317.php

It’s trite to say it, but you Just. Can't. Make. This. Stuff. Up. :(
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Taalcon on March 22, 2019, 09:29:00 am
Would you just look at this? A day after several days of additional trashing of an American hero who isn’t even alive to defend himself, along with trashing other American public figures plus the husband of one of his own last little handful of employees who will put up with his ****, look what he does.   >:(

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Trump-congratulates-Putin-on-his-reelection-12767317.php

It’s trite to say it, but you Just. Can't. Make. This. Stuff. Up. :(
Listen, I can't stand the guy, but look at the date:  Tuesday, March 20, 2018

It was stupid and a problem then, but it's not in the context of the above stuff. He does enough new insane stuff. No need to make old insane and careless stuff new again.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on March 22, 2019, 12:45:16 pm
You're right, I got this from sfgate.com which often resurrects old stories that they think are interesting because they are related to current stuff. I should have read more carefully. Mea culpa! (something no one will ever hear DT say).

Not to worry. There will be lots more evidence to come that the 25th Amendment is necessary,  even if those who should impose it refuse to.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on March 23, 2019, 07:11:43 pm
Iowa wingnut racist sympathizer & neo-Nazi apologist congressman (whose own party took away his committee assignments as discipline for his race-baiting & other inflammatory sayings) disparages Katrina disaster aid recipients, & says Iowans take care of themselves.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/steve-king-belittles-katrina-flood-victims-in-new-orleans-compared-to-iowa/?ref=hvper.com

But do we hear him turning down FEMA money when it’s authorized?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/trump-approves-iowa-disaster-declaration/ar-BBV94gf?ocid=spartanntp

He never said “no” to this big welfare check either, did he?

https://farm.ewg.org/region.php?fips=19000
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on March 25, 2019, 11:07:52 pm
I guess everyone is so exhausted by the discussions, debates, & arguments over what Mueller's report would or wouldn't reveal that no one is talking about it anymore.

So I guess I won't. We all deserve a rest, however short. I'm going up to the Cabin.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Jason on March 28, 2019, 08:36:22 am
It was actually quite remarkable the lack of Russia stories on the air this week. Suddenly the only important topic is healthcare. Republicans were expecting a "pivot", but this was so dramatic and synchronized that I am surprised it is not a news story in and of itself. This pivot was asked for by Nancy Pelosi. I seriously wonder if the networks got the exact same talking points together to synchronize their pivot.

As someone who occasionally enjoys watching CNN and MSNBC, I am a little saddened by how little introspection and lack of public apology has occurred by the talking heads. When pressed, most of them doubled down and said that their own reporting and opinionating was fair, reasonable, and necessary. The near daily calls for impeachment, and flat out false and/or poor reporting should be cause for an apology. My trust in the intelligence and media communities were shaken with the horribly wrong reporting on weapons of mass destruction that led us to war in Iraq. I think the Russia collusion story is equally faith shaking. Why should I believe the narrative they are presenting on any other topics when they have time and time again shown they cannot be trusted. Even a simple, "we occasionally overreached, we recognize that and hope to do better in the future" would do wonders for my trust in them as institutions.

Back in 2012 the Democrats (starting with President Obama) were openly mocking Mitt Romney when he said that Russia was our top geopolitical threat. They did a sudden pivot when the narrative benefited them politically in 2016/17. Those were the first signs I saw that this was all politically motivated. If they cannot admit their shortcomings in the Russian collusion story, I will be a strong skeptic of anything they report that conveniently seems to fit the narrative that they want.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Palmon on March 28, 2019, 02:07:11 pm
No doubt there are talking-heads noticing this great pivot but they are probably on networks that no one watches because they are too conservative.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: JLM on March 28, 2019, 06:02:27 pm
Wait, what are you talking about?  The "pivot" you are talking about was done by Trumpkins himself.  The news is merely following the story.  Politically, it was probably the stupidest thing he could have done. 

All Muller found was that there was insufficient evidence to show a "meeting of the minds" in order to establish a conspiracy charge.  Nevertheless, Trumpy did benefit from Russian interference, and frankly welcomed it.  Obstruction of justice is still on the table though
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Palmon on March 28, 2019, 08:03:44 pm
DCS (Department of Child Services) took custody of child and siblings over a dispute with a doctor over care. The parents took the child to the doctor with 105 fever. He told them to go to the ER. They said they would but once they left the office, the child's fever broke and they saw no need.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/police-officers-with-guns-drawn-raid-arizona-home-for-boy-with-105-degree-fever-report-says (https://www.foxnews.com/us/police-officers-with-guns-drawn-raid-arizona-home-for-boy-with-105-degree-fever-report-says)
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Jason on March 28, 2019, 11:30:07 pm
Since the US legal system requires the prosecutor to have enough evidence to charge and convict someone, not charging Donald Trump with obstruction means that there was not enough evidence to charge and convict. That is a very strong vindication. It is very difficult to prove a negative, so not finding evidence to exonerate someone is hardly convincing of a crime.

President Trump wanted to talk about healthcare, too, but he is spending a tremendous amount of time on his victory laps. I have not seen evidence that he has pivoted very much.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on March 28, 2019, 11:33:13 pm
Here are the actual words of Attorney General Barr's summary.

Regarding Russia's IRA attempts to influence the election:

"...the Special Counsel did not find that any U.S. person or Trump campaign official or associate conspired or knowingly coordinated with the IRA in its efforts..."

Regarding Russia hacking into Clinton campaign computers:

"...the Special Counsel did not find that the Trump campaign, or anyone associated with it, conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in these efforts..."

Regarding obstruction of justice:

"...the report sets out evidence on both sides of the question and leaves unresolved what the Special Counsel views as “difficult issues” of law and fact concerning whether the President's actions and intent could be viewed as obstruction. The Special Counsel states that “while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.”

I suppose we'll see if there is agreement with Barr's analysis once the full report has been released. If so, then I believe apologies from the press would be appropriate for all of the hype about collusion. I'm less inclined to expect apologies from elected representatives who were doing their jobs to ensure the executive branch of government is not abusing power.

Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Jason on March 29, 2019, 12:03:01 am
There is a lot missing from this story. I think that would shed a lot of light on what happened. It was not as the headline makes it appear, that she simply went from the doctor's office visit to a SWAT team kicking in her door. There was a steady progression.

The doctor's working hypothesis was that this child might have bacterial meningitis, which can kill any healthy person within 24 hours. Bacterial meningitis is now very rare because of vaccinations. This child was unvaccinated. The child likely had other symptoms, such as stiff neck.  If so, then the working hypothesis was very valid.

Other stories said that when the mother did not show up to the emergency room as she had agreed, the doctor spoke with her on the phone. This is excellent follow-up from the physician. What she told the doctor must not have been reassuring enough that she again agreed to go to the ER. But like the first time, she did just the opposite. As she had agreed twice to go to the ER, she must have had some concerns, too. The explanation given for why she did not go to the ER was that she did not want to get in trouble for not having her children vaccinated (as even though she said her child was acting more normal, she was convinced enough in their phone conversation to agree to go to the ER). If hiding her legal liability was her main reasoning for not going to the ER, then she was potentially putting her child at risk of a quick death for a very poor reason, especially when she had been reassured that she would not get in trouble for that.

She had engaged the physician to care for her child. That comes with a huge amount of responsibility, including the responsibility to report any possibility of child abuse or endangerment. He tried multiple times. But he felt she could be putting her child at risk, so was legally required to report her to DCS. There is no wiggle room. These laws apply to ministers (though ministers would likely be observant of other signs than medical ones), so if any of you teach primary, please familiarize with your lawful duties in your state.

I cannot speak to the DCS and police responses. Kicking in the door was not the initial response. She refused to communicate with them. They even had her neighbor call her to try and get her to talk with them. I think cart blanche separation of families is generally a bad idea. But I do not know and cannot guess what went into that assessment.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on March 30, 2019, 12:41:11 am
Quote
But he felt she could be putting her child at risk, so was legally required to report her to DCS. There is no wiggle room. These laws apply to ministers (though ministers would likely be observant of other signs than medical ones), so if any of you teach primary, please familiarize with your lawful duties in your state.
Those laws also apply to teachers and counselors. I have had to file CPS reports based on children's behavior, even when I knew that parents would be negatively impacted by the resulting investigation. I dislike the whole process, but I dislike even more the situations which lead to the requirement to report.

On a related note, Pope Francis made it mandatory for church officials at the Vatican and its ambassadors to immediately report allegations of sexual abuse. In his edict, he announced, "The protection of minors and vulnerable persons is an integral part of the gospel message that the Church and all its members are called to spread throughout the world. We all have the duty to generously welcome minors and vulnerable people and to create a safe environment for them, taking their interests first."
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Palmon on March 30, 2019, 01:02:10 pm
Jason and Roper, you no doubt are right but to many of us on the outside, it brings to mind the photo of Elian Gonzalez. Not a good visual.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elián_González (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elián_González)
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: N3uroTypical on March 30, 2019, 03:44:09 pm
On a related note, Pope Francis made it mandatory for church officials at the Vatican and its ambassadors to immediately report allegations of sexual abuse.
I am glad that I've lived to see the Catholic church do such an extreme about face on the matter, and I will probably always be amazed at the zeal I've personally encountered in years past, when adherents to Catholicism defended their refusal to do so.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Jason on March 30, 2019, 11:50:17 pm
Here is what is written about the child welfare check.
"Inside, they found that two additional children, ages 6 and 4. In their report, authorities wrote that the home was a mess, with piles of clothes scattered across the floor. In the parents' bedroom, police found a shotgun next to the bed. Bryce later told KPHO that the gun didn't work.

"We located the other two children in their bedroom which was covered in stains of unknown origin," one officer wrote. "The children advised us they had vomited several times in their beds and had stains around their mouths. One child told me that their 'stomach hurt.'" All three children were taken to the hospital, then placed in foster care. According to the Republic, the 2-year-old was ultimately diagnosed with a respiratory virus. The other children do not appear to have had any serious medical issues."

The condition they found the children as well as the firearm laying out are probably some of the reasons the children were placed in state custody.

I am also now reading that the doctor was a naturopathic doctor. I am glad he called and spoke with staff at 2 other hospitals for guidance, as it seems he felt this was out of his expertise. He sent them to a children's hospital, which is likely one of the hospitals he called for advice.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on April 01, 2019, 09:36:31 pm
Still thinking back to the days when I had to pass background checks, psych interviews, & polygraphs to get certain jobs that had no bearing on national security but did involve public trust. They looked at everything - finances, amount of debt you owed, where your monthly income went, whether you drank & how much. They visited or at least called not only your last few employers, but a few random neighbors (one of my neighbors reported later that they were asked if they'd ever seen me drunk), past schoolteachers, people you worked with in community or volunteer activities, & personal references.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/the-white-house-whistleblower-bombshell-and-what-it-could-mean/ar-BBVv3AH?ocid=spartanntp

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/White-House-whistleblower-says-25-security-13731876.php

Police & fire personnel, health professionals, teachers of juveniles, employees who work with a variety of valuable items or sensitive or hazardous processes, & myriads of other common working folks are required to pass some sort of screening to determine if they have a minimum level of honesty, mental stability, responsibility, & reliability. Apparently, however, not every individual with access to information that could make or break the well-being of our country. Not only that - once some of them have failed the screening, they can somehow get the results annulled.

Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: pnr on April 03, 2019, 09:09:35 pm
When I read this story I thought, if your boss or even the security office who vets you, already knows you have all these skeletons in your closet then how can they be a continuing security problem so as to prevent a security clearance?  You aren't likely to do things bad because of any blackmail attempt.    And there are people with criminal history that remake themselves into good citizens, who are better able to do their jobs because of what they learned as a criminal or in rehabilitating themselves.   Further, if a boss knows of some risks, they can set up various procedures to reduce that risk.

There was a time when no one who had ever smoked marijuana even once was able to get a job in law enforcement.   That isn't true any longer.   

I fully agree that there should be security vetting, and disclosure about the risks to boss in government, and maybe even public disclosure of the issues.   But I do not think it helps our country to categorically decide that some people's misdeeds forever bar them from all government service forever.   The president is the president.  He is legally able to give security clearances.   I think this whistleblower just thought people would cast stones at him for overruling her decisions.   And, of course, she was absolutely right because there are a lot of Americans who (mistakenly in my view) think that President Trump does not love his country and therefore does things to undermine it, or does stupid things that they think he shouldn't (as opposed to policy decisions that they wish he hadn't which is part of the regular rough and tumble of a democracy).
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on April 03, 2019, 09:23:03 pm
If you have skeletons in your closet, and then have access to classified information, you are susceptible to coercion: "If you don't tell me ABC, then I will make public your XYZ actions." It's interesting to me that the persons in question wouldn't be given the clearance to perform maintenance on aircraft in the USAF, but they can work at the highest levels of government "because the President says so." Another example the executive branch's abuse of power, and another reason why it should be challenged by the other two branches.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Palmon on April 04, 2019, 02:40:45 am
Quote
Back in 1988, in Department of Navy v. Egan, the United States Supreme Court noted in its decision:

The President, after all, is the "Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States."  U.S. Const., Art. II, 2.  His authority to classify and control access to information bearing on national security and to determine whether an individual is sufficiently trustworthy to occupy a position in the Executive Branch that will give that person access to such information flows primarily from this constitutional investment of power in the President and exists quite apart from any explicit congressional grant.

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2019/04/dems_wrong_on_white_house_security_clearances.html (https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2019/04/dems_wrong_on_white_house_security_clearances.html)

Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on April 04, 2019, 11:16:43 am
Yep. Security is a function of the executive branch. The president has constitutional authority to issue security clearances as he sees fit. Congress has constitutional authority under Article 1 for oversight to prevent the executive branch's abuse of power. It is proper and necessary for congress to challenge the oval office. "Can" does not mean "should."

Edit: I guess if the House really wanted to, they could just stop funding any security clearance processing initiated by the White House. That would be petty, but no more so than Trump bypassing critical security procedures to give a job to his son-in-law.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on April 04, 2019, 05:05:49 pm
The president is the president.  He is legally able to give security clearances.

I'm curious to know if he ever passed a security clearance, & what level. If he doesn't have one, can he legally grant one? If he isn't Yankee White, can he authorize someone else to be? If I don't have the Melchizedek Priesthood, I can't ordain anyone else, not even as "only" a deacon.

It's interesting to me that the persons in question wouldn't be given the clearance to perform maintenance on aircraft in the USAF, but they can work at the highest levels of government "because the President says so." Another example the executive branch's abuse of power, and another reason why it should be challenged by the other two branches.

Where I live, & where I've worked in the past, a person wouldn't be hired to oversee county jail inmates, or staff a police or sheriff's records or dispatch center, without a strict security check. I'm sorry it's been so long since I was involved in those occupations. I knew people who couldn't pass, maybe because of long-old alcohol or drug abuse, misdemeanor arrests for shoplifting or joyriding, or financial problems (not dishonest, just dumb). Today, I'd tell them "Not to worry, I know where you can get hired & get to see our country's nuclear secrets, or know what our agents in Korea, Syria, or Cuba are finding out before it hits CNN, or even when The Boss is going to play golf next. Forget about any such dumb thing as a security check - just get to be good pals with The Boss."


Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on April 24, 2019, 10:28:07 am
I think many of us struggle & strain to relate to the ordeals that Christ endured throughout His life until the very last moment, but still cannot.

Here is someone who evidently doesn't.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/steve-king-says-he-can-relate-to-jesus-christs-suffering-after-backlash-over-white-supremacy-quote/ar-BBWf3Rn?ocid=spartandhp
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on May 16, 2019, 11:48:55 pm
Details about what he wants The Wall to look like. Something to rank with the Great Pyramids, the Taj Mahal, the Circus Maximus, etc., as monuments built by ancient kings & emperors to themselves.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/trump-wants-his-border-barrier-to-be-painted-black-with-spikes-he-has-other-ideas-too/ar-AABsOLQ?ocid=spartandhp
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: N3uroTypical on May 17, 2019, 10:52:12 am
I still prefer a rainbow inclusive eco love wall with solar panels and dirt on the top for organic gardening.  And a crisis hotline phone every twenty feet, in case someone needs counseling or services.  Better make it every ten feet.  I mean, we surely want to provide the criminals trying to enter our country illegally, with the best possible experience with our friendship wall, now don't we?
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on May 18, 2019, 09:50:53 am
Or maybe we should follow the recommendations of the border state governors who actually deal with the challenges every day.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: N3uroTypical on May 18, 2019, 03:42:46 pm
I did something I don't usually do, and listened to a good 30 minutes of some Trump event.  The event was held on the border, and for a solid 45 minutes, we heard from person after person, DHS and ATF agents, US Border patrol, representatives from small towns.  They took 1-3 minutes each, there were like 20 of them.  Every one said basically the same thing - thank you for finally noticing us, and yes we need more wall and we need it now please.  Some of the stories they told were horrendous.

Some of the governors tell a different story do they?  Well, they have to think about re-election and representing their constituencies and stuff.  You should listen to them too I suppose.  But you sure shouldn't discount the impassioned pleas from the folks who deal with things year in and year out.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on May 18, 2019, 10:26:31 pm
Yep. And you'll hear stories from farmers and businesses along the border about how necessary a thriving immigrant population is. From POTUS to Pelosi, each politician will hand pick those stories which make their case seem the strongest. Each media outlet will broadcast those stories which best fit their own political persuasion.

My wife's folks live in Yuma (the lettuce capitol of America) six months out of the year. They are devout Trump supporters. And yet...every time Trump brags about shutting the border or deploying troops, they shake their heads. What Yuma needs is a faster and more efficient way to help immigrant families at the border. Their are so many families seeking asylum that the workers who cross on a daily basis to work in the lettuce industry are lining up at 3:00 a.m. to get across. It takes four hours each way. A wall will only make things worse for families seeking asylum, for workers who live in Mexico, and for the U.S. farmers.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: N3uroTypical on May 18, 2019, 10:37:52 pm
"What Yuma needs is a faster and more efficient way to help immigrant families at the border."

I think the entirety of both the exporting and importing countries need that.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: JLM on May 19, 2019, 08:41:27 am
Quote
DHS and ATF agents, US Border patrol, representatives from small towns.

You could have just said "the deplorables."
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on May 19, 2019, 07:23:42 pm
From POTUS to Pelosi, each politician will hand pick those stories which make their case seem the strongest. Each media outlet will broadcast those stories which best fit their own political persuasion.

Isn't it SAD & DEPLORABLE (I want to be fair & non-partisan in choosing my adjectives) that public opinion on any issue depends on whose lies & demagoguery sound more credible at any given moment?
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on May 22, 2019, 11:44:44 pm
If your little kids get upset with their playmates, grab their soccer ball or My Little Pony & storm back home, it’s a great object lesson for Mamma & Daddy. What happens when (supposedly adult) politicians get into a snit & refuse to play any more?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-blow-up-leaves-lawmakers-worried-about-disaster-aid-budget-talks/ar-AABL2fo?ocid=spartandhp

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/very-very-very-strange-how-nancy-pelosis-meeting-with-trump-went-down/ar-AABKLTE?ocid=spartandhp
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: N3uroTypical on May 23, 2019, 02:04:55 pm
The counterpoint, of course, is that Dems and the media continue to scramble to find their next area of attack in the wake of their failure to have Russian collusion stick.  2+ years of effort, dead.  They'll find something new, but for now, all they can do is talk about coverups and obstructing justice without providing details, and getting personal with all the talk of Trump "roaring into the room", "getting upset", "blowing up", "getting into a snit", "refusing to play any more", "storming back home", "temper flaring up", etc.

So for folks who consume news mainly from places like msn.com, you end up with that picture in your head.

Here's a portion of his statements in the Rose garden after this melodramatic high-emotion scene.  He doesn't look very post snit/upset/roaring/storming/flaring to me.

https://www.facebook.com/WhiteHouse/videos/1159733690878947/?__xts__[0]=68.ARBwu20KnMXL1xDaPatIuWK03UURsypaCt6GP0YrhSP-jG8tnn6m0URfAOxX8LaR1wVImBtN3_5ZAU29Ae6D6KZEapcXaBzr9epSOl8eFu7lnaJ8qwXEkYWT1VIgV9LH4iL9k3V5XDWl5KiciIIRnzEmsYOjMcLDVl61vkflF2YvinI5MfJ8vhxxefYG8xI54WV03mVXQxLHAGkFKRRqIlJ8xAfmMGGJe8o0M9SZ7e1JfjPbM8g0inTrjsyPgJY53OVmb_YFmFlcYnpVDEb-aW4T9ZbY1M5ZDsCcHXD9QRYbCzxB9D2uY80ggvVf9gKHKRk6DyT-XocBtyiow6-p9ga6DCy1m3NA06lTphy2&__tn__=-R
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: JLM on May 23, 2019, 10:31:05 pm
He is a con artist.  He can usually put on the facade he needs to appease his sycophants.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Hobbes on May 23, 2019, 10:56:24 pm
The idea that the president of the United States can't agree to sign a bill addressing the dangerous condition of our infrastructure because the opposing party is being mean to him is... not great.

Signed: a bridge engineer
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on May 23, 2019, 11:09:39 pm
So for folks who consume news mainly from places like msn.com, you end up with that picture in your head.
I get my news from NPR and the BBC World Service. I read analysis from Sratfor and the CATO Institute. I stopped reading MSNBC and Fox News years ago. I still think Trump's behavior was/is boorish.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: N3uroTypical on May 24, 2019, 11:01:32 am
I've lost my free Stratfor stuff - was just thinking about getting back in the loop there.  Thanks for the timely reminder!
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Jason on May 25, 2019, 12:36:12 am
$2 Trillion wish list without NO effort to come up with a way to pay for it. I am glad that was quashed. Where did the deficit hawks go? I hate my posterity as much as the next American, but this is getting a little ridiculous.

If you want stuff, pay for it. Raise taxes on all individuals and all corporations, especially multinationals.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: JLM on May 25, 2019, 12:50:27 am
I like this guy.  I can definitely get behind his immigration policy.

https://www.npr.org/2019/05/24/726080593/juli-n-castro-wants-to-redefine-which-immigrants-have-merit (https://www.npr.org/2019/05/24/726080593/juli-n-castro-wants-to-redefine-which-immigrants-have-merit)
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: N3uroTypical on May 25, 2019, 10:18:42 am
Where did the deficit hawks go? I hate my posterity as much as the next American, but this is getting a little ridiculous.
We're still right here, and we're closing our 2nd decade of not being given any valid presidential candidate for which to vote.  The last time I saw hope was in the campaign rhetoric of Bush I.  Then the twin towers happened, and pres Bush said "this is now the focus of my administration", and I haven't heard anything about sound spending besides empty platitudes ever since.  Seventeen years now?  Oy.

I'm guessing that folks intend to keep this deficit spending going forever with plans of controlled inflation.   The stuff we bought for millions in the '80's is now a drop in the bucket.  The stuff we bought for hundreds of millions in the '90's, well, we talk in billions now.   Todays tens and hundreds of billions will seem smaller once we talk in trillions in a decade or two.

I remember an argument my dad had with a neighbor back in the late '70's.  Neighbor was griping about inflation.  My dad, who was born during the great depression, said "When I was growing up, everything cost a nickel, but nobody had a nickel.  Today everything costs a dollar, and I've got the dollar."

I'm not arguing that everything's ok, not dismissing a single relevant point against deficit spending.  I'll vote for fiscal conservatism every time it's presented to me.  Just expressing a tiny twinge of hope that I might not actually be consigning my kids' children into slavery.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on May 25, 2019, 05:33:26 pm
For those who believe Trump is the greatest figure on Earth in the last two millennia, you have some support. Admirers of one or the other Roosevelt, Truman, Kennedy, Reagan, the Bushes, Obama, or any other presidents can stop reading.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/celebrity/jon-voight-argues-trump-is-greatest-president-since-abraham-lincoln-in-twitter-videos/ar-AABU7ke?ocid=spartandhp

Once he has actually won a war, saved America from fracturing into two (or more) separate countries - or merely expressed the hope that it won't, made the world safer for democracy, championed causes like the League of Nations or United Nations, WPA or CCC, GI Bill & its successors, Civil Rights Act, Voting Rights Act, Medicare, Peace Corps, or Thousand Points of Light, we can coronate him as the greatest figure ever to come to Earth, without exception. It won’t make Deity happy, but that shouldn’t bother those for whom Trump IS deity.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: N3uroTypical on May 25, 2019, 07:09:01 pm
...Admirers of ... Obama, ... can stop reading.

Once he has actually won a war, ...
Just so long as nobody is admiring Obama for ever winning a war.  Because that would be, like, about as laughable as Trump being the greatest president ever.  Perhaps even more so.

Seriously.   Obama was so good at perpetual never ending war, and getting people to accept and support (or at least ignore) it, that even folks on this board were complaining that Trump was trying to end one.

Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: JLM on May 26, 2019, 12:50:45 am
In hindsight, the Iraq war was unnecessary and unjust.  It distracted from Afghanistan and created much instability in the region.  Obama inherited the mess from Bush and managed as best he could, and was perhaps too war adverse.  He could have built a solid coalition to intervene in Syria, but chose not to.  Trump seems to be chomping at the bit to plunge us into a brutal war with Iran.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on May 26, 2019, 10:07:06 am
If you want stuff, pay for it. Raise taxes on all individuals and all corporations, especially multinationals.
+1
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Jason on May 26, 2019, 11:21:01 am
The economy is roaring pretty well, so it is probably the only time that one could reasonably enter into a trade war to right some past trade wrongs. It would not be good to do this during a recession. China and other countries have more cracks in their economy than we do. If not now, then when could we negotiate from a position of strength?

One of the biggest decreases in purchasing power today compared to the 50s or 70s is that there is so much more advanced stuff to purchase today than back then. Today's monthly expenses have categories that were never dreamed of back then. Wireless phones, internet access, subscription services, smart devices, etc. Little expenses matter when it comes to wealth accumulation. But we also have companies like Vangard and free information like the Bogleheads, that make it relatively simple and inexpensive for the average person to invest and become richer.

President Trump will not stop being himself. But I think he has moderated a bit. Now the bigger story is not the shock that people have of him, but rather the opposition's opposition to him.I do not think this is all sincere, either. There was definitely financial benefit to many media corporations in their negative coverage of him.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: JLM on May 26, 2019, 10:45:30 pm
Quote
President Trump will not stop being himself

Which is precisely why he must be opposed in all that he does.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Jason on May 27, 2019, 02:00:55 pm
Quote
President Trump will not stop being himself

Which is precisely why he must be opposed in all that he does.
Only the Sith deal in absolutes.

The type of absolutism wherein you oppose something simply because it aligns with your specific opposition party is one of the silliest things I have read for a while. I would be a little disheartened if you really opposed all of these things simply because they were accomplished with President Trump in office. Some are better than others. Some have compromise in order to pass. But most have something good in them.

Replace NAFTA?
Cut taxes? 
Nominate 2 constitutionalists to the supreme court?
Help for preventing Veteran Suicides?
Genocide prevention act?
Legal production of Hemp?
Airport space for breastfeeding mom's?
Expand Childhood Cancer Research?
Unemployment record lows?
2026 World Cup?
Border Patrol with fentanyl detection kits?
Russia Sanctions Bill?
US Embassy to Jerusalem?
Large pay raise for military?

Why not judge something based on its own merits, rather than if Obama or Trump did it.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: JLM on May 27, 2019, 03:14:10 pm
Replace NAFTA?
Unnecessary, and pooly negotiated.  We lost cred woth out neighbors.

Cut taxes? 
Makes the rich richer, harms the poor and needy while decreasing our economic strength.

Nominate 2 constitutionalists to the supreme court?
Sotomayor is my favorite SCOTUS judge.  Not a fan of Kavanaugh or Gorche.

Help for preventing Veteran Suicides?
By cutting mental health funding.  That makes a lot af sense.

Genocide prevention act?
Which he has no involvement.

Legal production of Hemp?
Kinda late to the party on this one.

Airport space for breastfeeding mom's?
Really?  You keep citing small regulatory changes he has little if any input to.

Expand Childhood Cancer Research?
Act of Congress.

Unemployment record lows?
Thanks to Obama's smart growth policies.  Employment is a lagging indicator.

2026 World Cup?
Who cares?

Border Patrol with fentanyl detection kits?
Yeah, let's presume everyone with brown skin 8s a drug dealer. 

Russia Sanctions Bill?
You're joking right?  The man is practically a Russian agent.  He signed that bill under political duress and hasn't bothered to enforce it properly.

US Embassy to Jerusalem?
Bad idea from the start. 

Large pay raise for military?
Again, you keep citing legislative acts he had nothing to do with except sighn his name as some sort of accomplishment.

The only place where Trump has done anything "good" is where he has shut up and let people much smarter, ethical and competent do their job.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: N3uroTypical on May 27, 2019, 05:12:33 pm
Lol people like this:
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on May 27, 2019, 08:34:49 pm
The type of absolutism wherein you oppose something simply because it aligns with your specific opposition party is one of the silliest things I have read for a while. I would be a little disheartened if you really opposed all of these things simply because they were accomplished with President Trump in office.

Why not judge something based on its own merits, rather than if Obama or Trump did it.

Isn't this exactly what both corrupt parties, & their corrupt office-holders in the White House & Congress, are doing? Trump is systematically dismantling what Obama did because it's stuff Obama did, while he & the crooked, self-serving Democrats & Republicans in the House & Senate refuse to work together to enact legislation that this country needs. Meanwhile, many Cabinet-level officials are interim or acting because no capable or sensible person will stay in this administration & Trump is avoiding the ordeal of proposing more of his unfit cronies & foot-kissers for Senate confirmation.

This is a big reason why I can't wait to see the collapse of both parties & the eventual rise of a functional multi-party system where coalition & compromise would take the place of this continual conflict & animosity. I am sick of the bums in Washington & their drama. They need to stop the lying, fighting, & remember their oath to the Constitution & the lovely words they so glibly threw out in their campaign promises.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: JLM on May 27, 2019, 10:58:52 pm
Unfortunately a multi party system is not feasible with the current constitutional framework.  Are you willing to risk the bill of rights for a rewrite?
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on May 28, 2019, 12:49:16 am
Unfortunately a multi party system is not feasible with the current constitutional framework. 
Please explain. It wasn't always thus.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: N3uroTypical on May 28, 2019, 10:37:25 am
A buddy who lived in Israel a while told interesting tales.  He went over there with the opinion that our two party system was broken, and he was looking forward to seeing how multiparty systems like the Knesset.  He came back jumping off the plane and kissing the ground, grateful we have our flawed and broken two party system.   The way he told it, getting anything done in Israel required having to give several single-issue minority parties what they want, so they'll vote for your thing.  Wanna pass a spending bill?  Gotta include human rights for gay walruses.  Need this or that law?  The bonk-yourself-in-the-head party wants an official national holiday and the ultraconservative religious folks want to make it harder for women to have a drivers license. 

Not sure if something that would be a step up, or a step down if implemented here in the US. 

I think if we force ourselves to think about it long enough, most of us will realize that no matter what form of government we have, it'll only be as good/fair/smart/righteous as the goodness/fairness/smartness/righteousness of the populace it represents.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: cook on May 29, 2019, 10:42:11 pm
And Israel fares so well in everything that it's the best model of the multiparty system to make the decision on?  :P ::)
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: N3uroTypical on May 30, 2019, 12:34:45 pm
Well, when I'm off making decisions, I was able to move from "I don't know what this looks like", to "I have an example of what this looks like."   Gaining a data point may not show the line, but it's better than no data points at all, right?

I mean, here's a perfect time to say "oh, I lived in Waziristan for 5 years, and our multiparty system worked pretty well!".  Maybe it's just me, but I haven't heard anyone saying that. 

As we go about coming up with solutions to world problems, one would think that the absolute barest amount of homework we might be expected to do, before proposing this or that change, would be to become informed on the history of other folks trying it, and how well it worked for them.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on May 31, 2019, 01:24:29 am
There are a lot of other countries where people are happy with their form of government and think that the U.S. form causes a lot of unnecessary conflict. I think most people prefer what they are familiar with. That is not evidence of superiority of any one system. I've lived in Japan, Germany, and Oman. I wouldn't trade any of those governments for the U.S. government. However, there are some things they do better. The U.S. government is not better than everyone else's in every way. We can learn from the best practices of others and we can adapt. We have an amendment system which enables that.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Scruffydog on June 03, 2019, 11:08:51 am
Personally, I think that all politics would be improved by making it at least punishable with a fine when politicians tell lies. I can put up with a government from a party I don't support so long as I don't feel that they are dishonest and working for one interest group only. I suspect that makes me rather naively optimistic to believe that we could ever have that
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: JLM on June 03, 2019, 08:29:53 pm
The first amendment protects political speech above all else.  What you propose would be heading down a very dangerous road. 
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: N3uroTypical on June 04, 2019, 09:55:23 am
Yep.  Have all the laws you want against libel, slander, fomenting rebellion, treason, inciting violence, and such.  But once folks try to criminalize stuff based on what a select group of people think truth is, well, consider me your arch nemesis.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on June 04, 2019, 10:27:18 am
The first amendment also protects pornography. Knowing just a little of pornography's intimate relationship with other crimes, specifically with sex trafficking, I'm not as absolute in my support of our current interpretation of the first amendment as I once was.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on June 04, 2019, 02:47:49 pm
Meanwhile, in London … 

https://www.sfgate.com/world/article/Trump-meets-queen-escalates-feud-with-London-13926674.php

https://www.aol.com/article/news/2019/06/04/trump-keeps-up-war-of-insults-with-mayor-of-london/23741736/

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/morning-briefing/trump-greets-queen-elizabeth-ii-insults-london-s-mayor-morning-n1013096
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: JLM on June 04, 2019, 03:27:30 pm
Content based free speech regulations must pass strict scrutiny, meaning that the government must show a compelling government interest and that the regulation is narrowly tailored and least restrictive to meet that interest.

Certain types of pornography have been found to meet that standard, such as child porn and crush films where the government has a compelling interest in stopping child exploitation and animal cruelty, the complete ban was found necessary to achieve those objectives.  With regular porn, much of it done by consentung adults, where sexual relations is protected on similar grounds that found race restrictions on marriage unconstitutional.  However, certain time, place and manner restrictions on distribution have been upheld.  There is also the issue of what is offensive pornography and what isn't.  These are some who would argue that Michelangelo's statue of David is offensive.  So the standard applied alliws courts to consider local norms and scientific, educational or artistic value. 

IMHO, we will have to allow the free expression of ideas, even if we don't like the specific content of  some others', to ensure the ability to express our own.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Scruffydog on June 04, 2019, 03:59:08 pm
Lie all you like when you are a private citizen, even if that is in public or on public fora. Lie as a politician to journalists and take the consequences when they call you out. Lie while campaigning in a deliberate attempt to get an advantage over your opponent, and I don't care what party you represent, you should be stopped from doing that. It is not an infringement of free speech; it is a protection of democracy. The Brexit crisis is largely caused by the fact that both sides were spraying around claims with no clear basis in fact, so no one knows what to believe, and everyone is making their own truth out of it. You can wave around freedom of speech all you like, but you just have to see what a catastrophe can be caused by politicians lying in a campaign by looking at Britain divided and confused and leaking money like a sieve. This isn't about opinions, it is about deliberately falsifying and making up facts
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: JLM on June 04, 2019, 07:03:25 pm
Ok, Scruffy.  Are you thinking civil litigation or criminal prosecution?
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Scruffydog on June 06, 2019, 04:20:21 am
Whichever works, to be honest. The longer that lying and falsification are accepted as legitimate political tools, the more voters will lose faith in democracy and go looking for alternatives that seem to provide simple solutions. Last century, that led to fascism and communism.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Curelom on June 06, 2019, 04:44:28 pm
Whichever works, to be honest.

Well, Nancy P. said she'd like to see Donald "in prison." Wouldn't the two of them make great cellmates? In fact, give them a whole suite, so there will be space for a few other political figures whose names come to mind.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Roper on June 06, 2019, 05:04:24 pm
There are a lot of things which are legal that are nonetheless immoral. I suppose that's the challenge: Teaching our children to understand the difference and help them learn to follow God's laws.

Politicians will continue to lie until the consequences outweigh the benefits. That's something the law will never address. So if we want truth, we have to insist on it ourselves. Most people won't. They're afraid of the consequences of speaking up. They might offend someone. This year, I've made one small step. Whenever anyone sends me something false via email or social media, I correct the lie and ask them not to forward it. I'm convinced far more lies are spread around by people using social media than by the politicians themselves. The latest one I received was about Trump sending airplanes from his own fleet to bring home soldiers who were delayed returning from Desert Storm. It never happened. And I said so. I served in Desert Storm, and lying about military members' service to score political points is wrong.
Title: Re: Current Events - US Politics Edition
Post by: Jason on June 08, 2019, 10:01:26 pm
"Lock her up" is a refrain heard often at Donald Trump political rallies, referring to possible criminal conduct by Hillary Clinton. It is very satisfying to feel that you will now have the power to impose your will on others, through threat of violence, with the ensuing humiliation that occurs. While satisfying to contemplate, putting Hillary on trial never had much chance of occurring. It was always a slogan, rather than an action plan.

Jailing political opponents is not something that I want to see occur, because there are so many laws that it is impossible to not commit felonies regularly. Think on the research that says every American commits about 3 felonies a day, and if the government takes a dislike to you, then they have to be totally incompetent to not find something they can jail you on.

Jailing for corruption, as occurs in Illinois, is something that should have a strong basis in impartial law, and not something forced through by partisans.